Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Floatstick]

Putting aside the Vuelta for a second, aren't you just saying Jonas did well in one particular type of race (stage race) for the period leading into the Tour (i.e., peaking)?

He crushed Tirreno-Adriatico so hard in early March this year, second place Juan Ayuso said "I think I'm the first human in this race".

The fact that he is in second place at TdF 6 weeks after a collapsed lung is itself pretty out there performance-wise.

 

[Shakes]

A few days ago on Eurosport (in Dutch) the commentators were stating Pogacar was giving everyone bicycle lessons. Today the same commentator stated this reminded him of Pantani, as Pog almost had to brake in the hairpins (Pantani on the Alp) after adding that the hairpins are flatter on the Alp.

Probably not veiled doping accusations based on their fanboyism earlier but nonetheless I still interpreted as such. One can only hope.

Anyway, love cycling but watching it as a sport is a no go from now on. Annoyed with comments regarding greatest cyclist ever, that everything is so amazing etc. Which saves me money on the Eurosport subscription at least. Will come back when someone can convincingly explain why one would win the tour with 6.2wkg or thereabouts five years ago but now it's 7. While altitude training was there, high carb intake etc. Almost 15 percent better is just not believable in such short time span.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

you're literally describing lance armstrong

Lance was world champion and probably could have excelled at Monuments and other races but he chose not to.

Jonas probably can't to be fair.

 

[hfer07]

Poga didn't need to do this today...
but such attitudes are the ones that make the fire more intense on his controversial "powers".......
At this point the question is - what are Poga's limits? If the press & anti-doping authorities are no longer interested in questioning him, If the double is won in such fashion, then why not going full *** for the triple?
Poga claimed to be interested in La Vuelta next year, which means he'll likely do the Tour-Vuelta double, which lead us to believe that Pogacar & UAE will make it "the new standard" with wins in the classics and a double GTs from now on....

 

[fbjim]

my vibes-based suspicion is that Pogacar is having his Jalabert 1995 season and even with doping, it is not sustainable, if only because other teams will catch up.

 

[Floatstick]

Even if you don't like Armstrong, his show on today's stage is worth a listen as he gives his opinion on all this.

Probably true that he is the best qualified person alive to understand the impact.

 

[kingjr]

Lance was world champion and probably could have excelled at Monuments and other races but he chose not to.

Jonas probably can't to be fair.

If Nibali can win San Remo, so can Vingegaard. He can certainly win Lombardia and LBL as well.

 

[Nick2413]

Both UAE and Visma took it to new levels, both are complicit in the era we’re in now. They’re just trading blows of who can be more ridiculous, and currently it’s Pogacar by a landslide.

 

[Rackham]

It is pretty clear, in this case, it is only the personal dislike for a rider who dictates the opinion and feelings on it.

It makes conversations about doping extremely childish & stuck in the Armstrong loop. What I mean by that is Lance paid for everyone's sins. We all know it. The pro cycling scene is totally hypocritical because they pinned the entire dope culture of the 1990's & 2000's on that one Texan b*stard. Good job, everyone hated him.

Meanwhile Pantani gets eulogized (even in this Tour) & called a 'great' unironically in the cycling press when he was a cocaine addict who juiced himself with everything he possibly could or that existed at the time.

So now here we are with the current year revisionism in which Vingegaard is described as more believable than Pog. I mean how about no.

I'd wager there isn't a single rider currently top 10 in GC in this Tour 2024 who isn't on something. That's the 'gross' truth which people can either square with, or risk falling into a fanboy cliché where it's the riders they hate most who dope the most. Rinse repeat just like Armstrong.

 

[noob]

as someone who watched the 2007 tour de france, i disagree that doped events are boring

when every day was a new doping reveal and riders sat on stones waiting to hear the next verdicts?

That's what I remember from that tour. Me and my then partner stopped watching when Rasmussen was sent home. We believed he was clean (so hilarious in retrospect)

 

[fbjim]

when every day was a new doping reveal and riders sat on stones waiting to hear the next verdicts?

That's what I remember from that tour. Me and my then partner stopped watching when Rasmussen was sent home. We believed he was clean (so hilarious in retrospect)

i remember some clip of Vino climbing into his team bus that was replayed like 50 times and got seared into my brain

 

[meat puppet]

The naked eye optics about the two riders' relative strengths last year and this year are different because last year pogi had answers until he collapsed and that was that. This year Vinge didn't have it (or a good enough team) in the first place, so of course it looked beyond ridiculous. Last year only had the TT as a total shitshow. This year there was practically nothing else.

And with data there is also the question about absolute levels - why and how the f did they improve so much, from 6,2/3 to bordering 7 w/kg? In a year.

After last year's tdf watching cycling felt kinda pointless until the worlds or so. And I guess this year is more of the same.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

It makes conversations about doping extremely childish & stuck in the Armstrong loop. What I mean by that is Lance paid for everyone's sins. We all know it. The pro cycling scene is totally hypocritical because they pinned the entire dope culture of the 1990's & 2000's on that one Texan b*stard. Good job, everyone hated him.

This is very true. It's why that whole era is BS. You'll never convince me that the powers that be didn't want to just go after the American who was winning the most important race. This is why they didn't even bother awarding those titles to anyone else. It's absurd.

I'd wager there isn't a single rider currently top 10 in GC in this Tour 2024 who isn't on something. That's the 'gross' truth which people can either square with, or risk falling into a fanboy cliché where it's the riders they hate most who dope the most. Rinse repeat just like Armstrong.

Perhaps, and yet Pogacar is winning EVERYTHING. It reminds me of the scene at the end of the Godfather, when the other five families told Vito that he had to share some of the judges and the politicians. Michael ended up destroying the other 5 families and consolidating his power, but that eventually led to his downfall.

If Pogacar won the GC here and 2 stages, nobody would say anything. Meanwhile, he's probably pissed he lost Stage 11 and is probably going for the wins on Stages 20 and 21. And I guarantee he's going to try to grab the Polka Dot jersey. Then perhaps double Olympic Gold and who knows what else.

 

[fbjim]

This is very true. It's why that whole era is BS. You'll never convince me that the powers that be didn't want to just go after the American who was winning the most important race.

They literally did not want to go after the American. Why in God's name would they go after their meal ticket to one of the most valuable media markets on the planet

 

[Saint Unix]

I'd wager there isn't a single rider currently top 10 in GC in this Tour 2024 who isn't on something.

Which makes it even more compelling for me. What are UAE and VLAB doing that's so much better than everyone else? It was the same with Sky. Their main guy is pumping everyone else by minutes and they have two or three mountain doms that can ride the entire peloton off their wheel seemingly at will. It's à deux vitesses all over again, but rather than dopers versus cleans it's dopers versus super dopers.

 

[fbjim]

do you like not remember how much political power Armstrong held in the sport, to the extent that other riders said that he could get you busted for doping if he wanted to

 

[Ripper]

I'd wager there isn't a single rider currently top 10 in GC in this Tour 2024 who isn't on something.

Wrong

Gee
😆😆😆
😂😂😂
🤣🤣😭

 

[FrontHeadlock]

Poga didn't need to do this today...
but such attitudes are the ones that make the fire more intense on his controversial "powers".......
At this point the question is - what are Poga's limits? If the press & anti-doping authorities are no longer interested in questioning him, If the double is won in such fashion, then why not going full *** for the triple?
Poga claimed to be interested in La Vuelta next year, which means he'll likely do the Tour-Vuelta double, which lead us to believe that Pogacar & UAE will make it "the new standard" with wins in the classics and a double GTs from now on....

Agreed. This is was very odd and totally unnecessary.

 

[Froome]

Which makes it even more compelling for me. What are UAE and VLAB doing that's so much better than everyone else? It was the same with Sky. Their main guy is pumping everyone else by minutes and they have two or three mountain doms that can ride the entire peloton off their wheel seemingly at will. It's à deux vitesses all over again, but rather than dopers versus cleans it's dopers versus super dopers.

UAE and VLAB are not at the same level anymore. Of course VLAB are all doped just like the other teams, but UAE reached something this year in that area where VLAB didn't reached.

Nevertheless, not just in the area of doping. Im terms of equipment, like for example TT setup, UAE reached a level superior to every team. Even so, this area is not that decisive.

Those factors combined with bad luck from Visma, a lot of serious crashes, especially the crash of Vingegaard, explain these gap, not that BS of nutrition, or new coach.

The good news, is that these current gap is quickly resolved next year, unless WADA or other organization kills the sport again and stops what is happening.

The bar is raising and the answer will come next year, but it's also needed some luck.

 

[Rackham]

If Pogacar won the GC here and 2 stages, nobody would say anything. Meanwhile, he's probably pissed he lost Stage 11 and is probably going for the wins on Stages 20 and 21. Then perhaps double Olympic Gold and who knows what else.

Oh sure Pog is lunacy alright. I'm not arguing about that. The number they've done on the sport is even more ridiculous, i.e. 'modern fans' think the sport is like F1 & it's totally normal to have the same riders & teams winning every major race. They're loving it & Pog feeds the 'Netflix' aspect of this modern cycling.

But all I've seen in this Tour is once again Jumbots & UAE's all over the road. In today's stage, Politt wrecked the peloton, meanwhile Kelderman & Jorgenson wrecked the break. The rest are just passengers & constantly playing catch-up, despite them all posting career best numbers.

UAE = Visma & Visma= UAE. It's why you won't hear a single complaint from either team when it comes to medical matters. Both repeat the mantra about nutritionbiketech again, again & again.

Which makes it even more compelling for me. What are UAE and VLAB doing that's so much better than everyone else? It was the same with Sky. Their main guy is pumping everyone else by minutes and they have two or three mountain doms that can ride the entire peloton off their wheel seemingly at will. It's à deux vitesses all over again, but rather than dopers versus cleans it's dopers versus super dopers.

It's an arms race.

Vingegaard will be back next season with all guns blazing & then Pogi fans will say he's 'pas normal'. It's a never-ending cycle.

Or maybe Jorgenson will jump a few levels & provide a challenge himself. It's anyone's guess really.

 

[Extinction]

It makes conversations about doping extremely childish & stuck in the Armstrong loop. What I mean by that is Lance paid for everyone's sins. We all know it. The pro cycling scene is totally hypocritical because they pinned the entire dope culture of the 1990's & 2000's on that one Texan b*stard. Good job, everyone hated him.

Meanwhile Pantani gets eulogized (even in this Tour) & called a 'great' unironically in the cycling press when he was a cocaine addict who juiced himself with everything he possibly could or that existed at the time.

So now here we are with the current year revisionism in which Vingegaard is described as more believable than Pog. I mean how about no.

I'd wager there isn't a single rider currently top 10 in GC in this Tour 2024 who isn't on something. That's the 'gross' truth which people can either square with, or risk falling into a fanboy cliché where it's the riders they hate most who dope the most. Rinse repeat just like Armstrong.

But cycling had nothing to do with Pharmstrong's demise, but USADA. Armstrong didn't pay a higher price than Pantani. That's absurd. The only reason Armstrong got his due was because he was an a-hole, who, while still in power, ruined the lives of those against him. He was an arrogant bully. Cycling didn't pin the entire doping culture on him alone, but Virenque, Pantani, Vandenbroucke, Ullrich, Jiminez, Basso, Landis, Hamilton, Rasmussen, Ricco, Contador, whose careers all paid a price which active Armstrong didn't.

 

[kingjr]

Agreed. This is was very odd and totally unnecessary.

It's the queen stage of the Tour, they trained a lot on this climb before the race. Why ever wouldn't he try to win the stage?

 

[zlev11]

Lance said that at this point Pogacar needs to play the political game and stop winning or else he will start getting uncomfortable questions (he admits he made this mistake himself). but what Lance doesn't realize is how Fanboy Culture has progressed over the past 20 years. people just want to see the "GOAT" stomp everyone and then go back to watching superhero movies.

 

[noob]

Oh sure Pog is lunacy alright. I'm not arguing about that. The number they've done on the sport is even more ridiculous, i.e. 'modern fans' think the sport is like F1 & it's totally normal to have the same riders & teams winning every major race. They're loving it & Pog feeds the 'Netflix' aspect of this modern cycling.

But all I've seen in this Tour is once again Jumbots & UAE's all over the road. In today's stage, Politt wrecked the peloton, meanwhile Kelderman & Jorgenson wrecked the break. The rest are just passengers & constantly playing catch-up, despite them all posting career best numbers.

UAE = Visma & Visma= UAE. It's why you won't hear a single complaint from either team when it comes to medical matters. Both repeat the mantra about nutritionbiketech again, again & again.



It's an arms race.

Vingegaard will be back next season with all guns blazing & then Pogi fans will say he's 'pas normal'. It's a never-ending cycle.

Or maybe Jorgenson will jump a few levels & provide a challenge himself. It's anyone's guess really.

I'd not call Remco a "passenger", nor Landa new result nearly beating Pantani. Imagine what an amazing cyclist they are if Visma and UAE are so far ahead!

 

[kingjr]

Lance said that at this point Pogacar needs to play the political game and stop winning or else he will start getting uncomfortable questions (he admits he made this mistake himself). but what Lance doesn't realize is how Fanboy Culture has progressed over the past 20 years. people just want to see the "GOAT" stomp everyone and then go back to watching superhero movies.

Do you mean to imply that fanboys today feel even stronger about their favourites than in the past? If so, that is an absurd statement.