Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

I find this post really funny.

''Everyone is doped and you guys still watch it all?" Actually I don't believe everyone is doped, not at all. There's a reason that a few teams have seen massive bumps in performance this year and everyone else looks like they're going backwards... still pushing the old watts while the richest teams suddenly see 10%+ improvements in just a couple of years.

Cognitive AI increases watts? First, it's called "Generative AI" not "Cognitive AI." Second, do you even know what LLM's do? Ask Chat GPT to build you a training program lolz. I'm sure you'll soon be dominating your local circuit. One of the biggest pitfalls we make as modern people is we look at the people of the past as if they were primitive and unintelligent, and in the case of athletics we say that we train more. The truth is that while we have better knowledge now, the people of the past were just as smart and trained just as hard as now.

Iphones also don't increase your watts, not sure what the argument is here. If you're trying to say we went from Nokia phones to iPhone 15's over night, that's clearly false. it took many years. On the other hand, human performance (not for everyone mind, just a few top riders from a few top teams) has radically improved in just 3 years. Odd, that. Almost like some shady Dr's have had a research breakthrough. Oh wait, they have. Altitude science, aka blood manipulation and using altitude to mask it.

"It's simple evolution nothing else." – The human species doesn't evolve from year to year. I don't think natural selection is taking place ... unless you think mates are now being chosen on the basis of how skinny their arms are and how high their Vo2 is. Seems implausible.

"Thats just my guess and wether or not most of you are ready to admit that or not thats mostly it." Go spend your life savings playing your Lotto Destiny with guesses like that!

"Remember life is great guys and enjoy it." Life actually is a b*** and then you die. That's why we get high (on EPO and Tramadol). This is probably the most absurd claim you made in your entire statement.

Let's not only take the massive spike in performances of a few elites, but the general high level of the peloton, which is going faster than ever before with this amount of climbing. You don't do that on bread and water alone. Climbing records from the full-on EPO era are being smashed by multiple riders. A clean peloton does not evolve in such a way. The numbers Bardet put out, for example, would have gotten him a podium 5-7 years ago and he wasn't even top twenty. Ineos, despite a 50 million budget, didn't even win a stage, but was always seen in rank and file just behind UAE and Visma. This means they are behind in the arms race, not that they have changed methodology. Radcliffe will have a serious chat with management over this debacle. They just need to sign the next super responder and voilà. The guy who ran Saunier Duval now with oil money has a good lad to go beyond whatever EPO jacked riders of the past could do, and all this clean as a whistle while handing out bidets to children on the road, not even breaking a sweat as he cruises to GT victory. It used to be that you had a long build-up to the Grand Bouclé at the expense of the rest of the racing calendar. Now you win from March to October as if we were back in the Neanderthal age of the sport. And suddenly the journos let everything slide as if it's all just fun and games. Oh the innocence of it all.

 

[Extinction]

The notion that people are getting away with motor doping these days is really in flat earth territory. Way too easy to find something like that on a bike.
In the "Cancellara days"....maybe but HIGHLY unlikely IMO.

Makes sense in a rational world, but we are living in one of miracles, epiphanies and portentious signs.

 

[Rob5091]

Teddy will be doing TV ads for Omo soon -
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racin...s-be-doubts-but-cycling-is-the-cleanest-sport
Newly-crowned Tour de France champion Tadej Pogačar admitted that there will "always be doubts" over whether cycling is free of doping, but argued it was the "cleanest sport".

and of course "It’s just a game." So just say no to dope, kids!

 

[Monoxidator]

Teddy will be doing TV ads for Omo soon -
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/racin...s-be-doubts-but-cycling-is-the-cleanest-sport
Newly-crowned Tour de France champion Tadej Pogačar admitted that there will "always be doubts" over whether cycling is free of doping, but argued it was the "cleanest sport".

and of course "It’s just a game." So just say no to dope, kids!

Such eloquence from our guy who never gets tired and doesn’t sweat while laying waste to his rivals. Guys who were competitive with him and are doing their best watts ever and yet are now hours behind

 

[Oldermanish]

Such eloquence from our guy who never gets tired and doesn’t sweat while laying waste to his rivals. Guys who were competitive with him and are doing their best watts ever and yet are now hours behind

So you have a point or just an implication? Is it that he's just well spoken? Nice to point that out.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

As long as it's organic engine, it's still cycling. With moto doping...it would be motorsport, illusion of cycling. End of the sport that we know. I'm really hoping it's not the case but obviously we can't be sure. Isn't such a technology too obvious and much easier to detect that a standard organic doping? With proper equipment any roadside spectator could detect it, right? I still think the risk is too big in this case.

 

[Salvarani]

As long as it's organic engine, it's still cycling. With moto doping...it would be motorsport, illusion of cycling. End of the sport that we know. I'm really hoping it's not the case but obviously we can't be sure. Isn't such a technology too obvious and much easier to detect that a standard organic doping? With proper equipment any roadside spectator could detect it, right? I still think the risk is too big in this case.

I found it very hard to believe they are using that.

Like yesterday they were checking the bikes right before they were about to go on the podium and roll away in the TT.

This moto doping stuff is like sending someone on a dummy mission to waste time. A goose hunt.

 

[MortiroloForever]

Matxin destroys everything he touches (in terms of cycling in general). I don't understand how someone with his background is still inside the professional cycling.

We all remember the rise and shocking fall of Saunier Duval in 2008 Tour de France. Everyone can check the performances of riders like Gomez Marchante, Juanjo Cobo, Jesus del Nero, Leonardo Piepoli, Ricardo Ricco and many others on and off Matxin management. The example of Juanjo Cobo is very clarifying: he only had good results under Matxin.

Now he is under protection of the UAE petrodolars, he has the favourite rider and I really believe that he is thinking that he is untouchable. On this situation, there are no limits for him and he is not going to stop.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Matxin destroys everything he touches (in terms of cycling in general). I don't understand how someone with his background is still inside the professional cycling.

We all remember the rise and shocking fall of Saunier Duval in 2008 Tour de France. Everyone can check the performances of riders like Gomez Marchante, Juanjo Cobo, Jesus del Nero, Leonardo Piepoli, Ricardo Ricco and many others on and off Matxin management. The example of Juanjo Cobo is very clarifying: he only had good results under Matxin.

Now he is under protection of the UAE petrodolars, he has the favourite rider and I really believe that he is thinking that he is untouchable. On this situation, there are no limits for him and he is not going to stop.

Yet Johan Bruyneel is banned for life.. The hypocrisy in cycling is a joke.

 

[MartinGT]

Just seen the highlights from yesterdays stage. LOLS.

 

[pastronef]

As long as it's organic engine, it's still cycling. With moto doping...it would be motorsport, illusion of cycling. End of the sport that we know. I'm really hoping it's not the case but obviously we can't be sure. Isn't such a technology too obvious and much easier to detect that a standard organic doping? With proper equipment any roadside spectator could detect it, right? I still think the risk is too big in this case.

how? where?

 

[noob]

how? where?

I have seen things like this and other posts and they're usually shut down by people here. But again, I'm a noob.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-apE9o157bg

 

[ppanther92]

Is this performance more insane than what Jonas did last year? It probably is

The ITT performance? For sure not.

 

[Extinction]

Read the article about Pogacar not really beating Pantani on PdB by such an insanely large margin. Because when you consider all the aero/fiction improvements he saved and estimated 40 watts. So Tadej would go as fast with 40 less watts, right? For isn't it that less resistence and better aerodynamics just means at a certain wattage you go as fast as the higher wattage that would be required with more drag and chain friction? But these improvements themselves don't give you extra watts.You still have to physiologically produce them. Yet Pog sustained 7.27 (adjusted) watts per kilo on PdB, which is an absolute power value and can't be explained by the tech considerations, right?

 

[Divergence]

Read the article about Pogacar not really beating Pantani on PdB by such an insanely large margin. Because when you consider all the aero/fiction improvements he saved and estimated 40 watts. So Tadej would go as fast with 40 less watts, right? For isn't it that less resistence and better aerodynamics just means at a certain wattage you go as fast as the higher wattage that would be required with more drag and chain friction? But these improvements themselves don't give you extra watts.You still have to physiologically produce them. Yet Pog sustained 7.27 (adjusted) watts per kilo on PdB, which is an absolute power value and can't be explained by the tech considerations, right?

They are saying Pantani did almost the same W/kg but was 4min down because of the road conditions, aerodynamics and tires.

 

[shadowrider]

Don't they use scanners for the stage winners bikes now? Don't motors produce heat as well? Could that not be easily defected as well? Like by fans, journalists, the officials if they want?

Yes, only when/while thinking about the "classic" electric motors. As they are used in the electric bikes and speedelecs used by the public. But since a few years there are a lot of technological systems that can support pedaling, systems that can hardly or not be detected with traditional scans. The question is also whether the UCI wants the cheating to be exposed.

Even in traditional doping research, doping products are constantly found to be present in the samples. But always in minimal quantities, below the permissible limit. This is extremely frustrating for the scientists and professors who determine this and realize that microdosing systems do indeed cause doping abuse. But here too, the UCI refuses to adjust the limits or to allow more extensive research methods.

 

[MartinGT]

Read the article about Pogacar not really beating Pantani on PdB by such an insanely large margin. Because when you consider all the aero/fiction improvements he saved and estimated 40 watts. So Tadej would go as fast with 40 less watts, right? For isn't it that less resistence and better aerodynamics just means at a certain wattage you go as fast as the higher wattage that would be required with more drag and chain friction? But these improvements themselves don't give you extra watts.You still have to physiologically produce them. Yet Pog sustained 7.27 (adjusted) watts per kilo on PdB, which is an absolute power value and can't be explained by the tech considerations, right?

Pog didn't even bother with aero shoe covers for he final TT because he's that hard

 

[E_F_]

Listen to https://lnk.to/GhostInTheMachine to get a clear understanding of why there's basically no good reason to believe that motors haven't been used to win the biggest races.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/getting-away-with-it-is-shockingly-easy-five-reasons-why-motor-doping-suspicions-wont-go-away

Often teams went to races without their bikes being scanned, when they did it was perhaps just one of the teammembers, even in the best case only one bike per rider, and further more the scanners only detect magnetic radiation which is shielded by carbon... So there's basically no testing.

 

[Extinction]

They are saying Pantani did almost the same W/kg but was 4min down because of the road conditions, aerodynamics and tires.

The article gives no watts/kg estimates for Pantani and Pogacar. I've heard Pogacar did the equivalent of 7.27 (unseemly). So even assuming a full EPO jacked Pantani hit 7, the tech improvements still don't explain how Pogacar reached such a high output, which can only be generated not given. This was my point. Whereas Pantani with the same tech advancements of today with the same watts/kg would have been faster, but still slower than Pogacar by a fair bit, because a supposed clean Tadej was simply stronger. Although it doesn't seem likely Pog wasn't enhanced.

 

[E_F_]

such a High output, which can only be generated not given.

Ehm...

 

[Divergence]

The article gives no watts/kg estimates for Pantani and Pogacar. I've heard Pogacar did the equivalent of 7.27 (unseemly). So even assuming a full EPO jacked Pantani hit 7, the tech improvements still don't explain how Pogacar reached such a high output, which can only be generated not given. This was my point. Whereas Pantani with the same tech advancements of today with the same watts/kg would have been faster, but still slower than Pogacar by a fair bit, because a supposed clean Tadej was simply stronger. Although it doesn't seem likely Pog wasn't enhanced.

Yes, the idea is that the better nutrition and training compensates for EPO and thus the 4min are explained.

 

[Extinction]

Ehm...

Well they can be given either by drugs or machines.

 

[Extinction]

Yes, the idea is that the better nutrition and training compensates for EPO and thus the 4min are explained.

I know that's what they're saying, but I think it's total BS.

 

[E_F_]

Well they can be given either by drugs or machines.

What? A motor can't give you watts?



SORRY. I can't read lmao. The motors were my point...

 

[JWTS]

Yes, only when/while thinking about the "classic" electric motors. As they are used in the electric bikes and speedelecs used by the public. But since a few years there are a lot of technological systems that can support pedaling, systems that can hardly or not be detected with traditional scans. The question is also whether the UCI wants the cheating to be exposed.

.

What are these things? I've been involved in the bike industry most of my adult life and in the ebike space for the last 10, and I'm unaware of any technology that doesn't involve a battery or that doesn't generate a heat and have magnetic resistance of some sort.

If someone has discovered the perpetual motion machine, please let me know asap! TIA