Doesn‘t drink coffee? Guess he must be an alien then.
-
The Cycling News forum is still looking to add volunteer moderators with. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
Bardet came 2nd in both races during his career. Hell, he was even 2nd this year! A race doesn't have to be in high mountains for climbers to dominate them...
Well the present is rather void without it being in the context of it's history, is it not?
Even the argument that you can't have a bad moment, only makes sense on historical comparison. You might as well make the argument, that a worse day by Pogacar doesn't even register most of the time because he's over the top good, so his bad days are very competetive while his good days, he can hardly be beaten on his terrain. There's also another guy who won the tour the last two years who managed to go for 2 Tours without even the hint of a bad day, and managed to produce his best ever numbers after coming out of the ICU not long ago. You could argue he didn't even have a really bad day either this Tour, he was just not as strong as Pogacar. So why are you worked up only about Pogacar, that's what I don't get.
Gianetti learned from the errors of bad boy Ricco and has adjusted his prodige accordingly, with Lance another unsavory point of reference. But, rest assurde, with UAE money all is happy in UCI land.
Not this again... Did you even watch?
In 2022 Pogacar lost due to tactical errors and TJV still needed Roglic and an amazing WVA to beat him.
Last year, Pogacars preparation was hampered because of his wrist injury and he still dropped Vingegaard 3 times up hill. Thanks to his entire team pushing for 2 weeks, he finally cracked. Once.
This year's dominance is the most obscene I've ever seen, so I focus on it. If you want to focus on something else, there are topics you can go to.
Oh yes. I also want Gianetti out of cycling.
Yes I watched, and yes it was hard for them to make him crack, but that kind of included Marie Blanque and especially Combloux. You make it seem like Vingegaard wasn't for two years the better climber and had totally astronomical TTs.
You can ofc focus on Pogacar, by all means, not gonna stop you. It just seems like being angry at a symptom to me, rather than the disease.
As to the he was nowhere before UAE argument:
In 2018, before UAE, he won the Tour de l'Avenir. Also competing was Vingegaard a whopping 41:34 min behind. In this race basically all his peerage from the age group that's competitive today raced.
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-l-avenir/2018/gc
He wasn't a super dominant junior, but that need not be the case to be dominant at mens level, as in any other sport as well.
Last edited:
People ofcourse decide how they spend their days some do it debating if the earth is flat too.
Noone is doped read it again.
''Everyone is doped and you guys still watch it all? Hmmm yeah sure noone is doped just relax with the echocammer and find something else that makes you happy.
I get you you guys here dislike Pogacar caus your fav rider dont win whoever it is, I see the names I remember some quotes haha and you gather here and tell yourself everyone is doped and you feel better from it I get it.
Let me tell you guy what it really is, its called evolution or do you guys believe the nokia people used from 1997 is better than todays Iphone? They even use cognetive AI in different areas within the sport now its so many aspect and areas knowledge just is not comperable, litterally everything so naturally their better this is simply only evolution nothing else. The way they alter their training based on recovery and how much more they can do its all out there.. Mindboggling that you guys think the world stands still. Or maybe not everyone thinks it but just gather here with few fellow minded to feel better I get it and dont take this the wrong way, you all are here cause your fav rider whoever it is isnt winning well most of you anyway. Thats just my guess and wether or not most of you are ready to admit that or not thats mostly it.
Now also the best climbing performance of all time. Pogacar is the best cyclist of all time and have been for a long time its nothing new just enjoy that your able to witness the best that has ever raced the bike is my tip your lucky afterall. In 100 years they wil speak of him in ways its hard to believe, you have the chance to witness him. Your lucky the end.
Remember life is great guys and enjoy it. Best intention do with that as you want cheers''
Greetings, fellow miracle non-believers. I have been reading this forum for a few years while being content with my lurker status. The first time I felt a slight urge to register and share my view was right after that miraculous 2020 TDF time trial in which Toddles snatched a sure victory from his Slovenian “big brother”. In the ensuing heated discussion on these pages, as I recall, only one poster mentioned an explanation that I thought was the most likely one: a motorized bike on the flat part changed to a normal one at the base of the climb. As most can recall, the emir’s wonder boy blitzed the flat part beating even the top (at the time) specialist (and a big guy) Tom D., all while looking like a “coal miner” (in the latter’s words) on his bike. Then the future smiley red-nosed bidons-to-young-fans distributer proceeded to annihilate the climb but looked spent at the finish (unlike during his 2024 80km solo forays). So, it appeared that he did a nice warm-up on the flat while caring little about such trifling issues as air resistance at 50+ km/h, the tiny tireless helpers (aka electrons) doing half of the forward propulsion work for him, jumped on his climbing bike and did an honest climb while being fresh. As he is a good climber, the result was predictable, and the “hi-tech” TT bike was safely in a different place.
Stage 8 of 2021 TDF gave the same vibes. It was cold and rainy during that stage which clearly bodes well for cooling of the motor should anyone try some impromptu IR gun on your frame. The next clear “too good to be true” episode came in 2023 Flanders. If one looks at that Kwaremont climb in slow motion, one can see the poor Matt vdP clenching his teeth, his whole body shaking as he tries to put power through the pedals, while Poggo just glides along the cobbles, his propulsive force appearing to be smooth and uniformly circular. And then comes the glorious 2024 with – finally, according to mou – good training plan (not just zone 2 like before, but some intervals sprinkled in, not to forget the more varied carb intake that gives an easy extra 15% as everyone now knows) and – as we have all witnessed – a succession of long solo rides capped with perfectly fresh and rested arrivals (while being occasionally “thirsty”, granted). All this while being on top of a monstrous March to October peak. So, in my view, the real question here is, as many have noted already, not whether Toddly is clean, but whether that doping – and the resulting propulsion – is still of a biological (as opposed to electromagnetic) nature. And at the time I am leaning towards the negative answer to that question. As the saying goes, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…
Then, clearly, there are many related questions. Who else is (was) using motors? Was Vingo’s TT in 2023 TDF motor assisted? How did Motopog lose two TDFs to Vingo? Why did Sky (Ineos) suddenly go into oblivion (as they should have enough money to pay for being allowed some li-ion help of their own)? If moto-doping is real, there is clearly the associated hidden politics with large sums of money exchanging hands. In 2024, apparently, emir’s boys were able to negotiate a more liberal partake of electron power. Hence endless reckless attacks with no concern for energy conservation – the battery will be replaced for the next stage anyway. I can only add that it also looks like that the first serious moto-doper was nobody else but the evil redneck Lancy. I recall that his transformation after that cancer, which nearly killed him, was downright miraculous. Specifically, before cancer, the healthy Lance was a typical puncheur in the Phil Gil mold: a relatively heavy guy with a great kick but with no time trial to speak of (especially a long one) and was never thought of as being remotely capable of challenging for a GT GC. There is still a video on the web of Big Mig passing a pre-cancer Lance in a TDF TT. The latter looks like a proverbial still standing figure. Then – after a near-terminal cancer, no less – a miracle happens and Lance begins to walk all over the TT prodigy Jan on a routine basis all while (sounds familiar, doesn’t it) sitting hunched and non-aero on his bike. Same story with high mountain climbing. Then all is well for a decade, America adoring its new hero, but suddenly hell breaks loose, and we learn that Lancy was mean, manipulating and plain sinister. He blatantly doped and forced his teammates – just short of a gun point – to do likewise. Poor souls (and their trembling wives) just had no choice. The whole story just sounded a lot like a typical (i.e. bad) Hollywood movie. Being nailed down, the repentant Lance went on TV shows and shed crocodile tears. Fans with some experience can easily recall the drama. One possible – and quite likely, in my view – explanation for all that is that Lance or someone else involved in the motor program somehow leaked sensitive info or got out of hand, and an urgent cover-up was deemed to be necessary as a motor-dope scandal could – at that time – potentially ruin the whole business. And that good old organic doping related drama was just the required cover-up.
Finally, why did motor doping make such a radical return in 2020, during the gloomy covid times? What was wrong with the good old relatively mild organic doping of a decade ago with its under 6 W/kg performances of the Sky era? Who knows. Maybe the business was struggling and was deemed to be needing some superheros to satisfy the tastes of the new fans of the instagram/tik-tok generation. Maybe the process of its monopolization went far enough so that any dangerous information leaks were no longer possible (as per Chomsky video posted earlier in this thread). We won’t know the correct answer for a while. Does motor doping make professional cycling a version of WWE? It pretty much does. But any professional sport is an entertainment business, the more so with every passing year, it seems. So, if its newer fan base is sufficiently “socially networked” and correspondingly simple minded, this is what it might become.
P.S. As one poster asked recently: if he knows he is a cheater, why is he so arrogant on the road with reckless attacks and inane celebrations. As Dr. Goebbels said a long time ago, a lie must be big and blatant to be believed. So, acting as if you are 100% clean and fully entitled to all those ridiculous nose breathing moped speed performances is the best way to make the (certain kind of) public believe them.
P.P.S. There have recently appeared some humorous “explanations” as to why Toddles is so much faster uphill than the EPO prodigy and born climber sub 60 kilo Pantani. It’s the “modern” bikes, folks, that give the rider so much aero advantage at 24 km/h. Well, if aero is so important at those speeds, and 80% of the aero resistance is due to the rider's body, then Toddly (or his hapless competitors, for that matter) would go faster still if he changed his “coal miner” 45 degrees body to horizontal posture on the bike to a flat back one. Yet he cares little about such angles, just merrily spinning 100+ rpm up any mountain, smiling, his hair nice and dry. Pantani, btw, was famous for climbing standing in the drops – and thus a nearly flat back. So, yeah, it is most likely the bikes, but with a little secret inside.
P.P.P.S. I was also waiting for someone to mention “AI” as one of those “explanations”: “AI is used for training plans, recovery etc..” I did not have high hopes for such a proposal coming, honestly, but recently it did come from one of apologists (and not just AI, but “cognetive AI” which must be really powerful and capable of effecting miracles we are witnessing here). Indeed, how can you live in 2024 without the ubiquitous “AI”. Thank you, sir, for educating us.
Stage 8 of 2021 TDF gave the same vibes. It was cold and rainy during that stage which clearly bodes well for cooling of the motor should anyone try some impromptu IR gun on your frame. The next clear “too good to be true” episode came in 2023 Flanders. If one looks at that Kwaremont climb in slow motion, one can see the poor Matt vdP clenching his teeth, his whole body shaking as he tries to put power through the pedals, while Poggo just glides along the cobbles, his propulsive force appearing to be smooth and uniformly circular. And then comes the glorious 2024 with – finally, according to mou – good training plan (not just zone 2 like before, but some intervals sprinkled in, not to forget the more varied carb intake that gives an easy extra 15% as everyone now knows) and – as we have all witnessed – a succession of long solo rides capped with perfectly fresh and rested arrivals (while being occasionally “thirsty”, granted). All this while being on top of a monstrous March to October peak. So, in my view, the real question here is, as many have noted already, not whether Toddly is clean, but whether that doping – and the resulting propulsion – is still of a biological (as opposed to electromagnetic) nature. And at the time I am leaning towards the negative answer to that question. As the saying goes, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…
Then, clearly, there are many related questions. Who else is (was) using motors? Was Vingo’s TT in 2023 TDF motor assisted? How did Motopog lose two TDFs to Vingo? Why did Sky (Ineos) suddenly go into oblivion (as they should have enough money to pay for being allowed some li-ion help of their own)? If moto-doping is real, there is clearly the associated hidden politics with large sums of money exchanging hands. In 2024, apparently, emir’s boys were able to negotiate a more liberal partake of electron power. Hence endless reckless attacks with no concern for energy conservation – the battery will be replaced for the next stage anyway. I can only add that it also looks like that the first serious moto-doper was nobody else but the evil redneck Lancy. I recall that his transformation after that cancer, which nearly killed him, was downright miraculous. Specifically, before cancer, the healthy Lance was a typical puncheur in the Phil Gil mold: a relatively heavy guy with a great kick but with no time trial to speak of (especially a long one) and was never thought of as being remotely capable of challenging for a GT GC. There is still a video on the web of Big Mig passing a pre-cancer Lance in a TDF TT. The latter looks like a proverbial still standing figure. Then – after a near-terminal cancer, no less – a miracle happens and Lance begins to walk all over the TT prodigy Jan on a routine basis all while (sounds familiar, doesn’t it) sitting hunched and non-aero on his bike. Same story with high mountain climbing. Then all is well for a decade, America adoring its new hero, but suddenly hell breaks loose, and we learn that Lancy was mean, manipulating and plain sinister. He blatantly doped and forced his teammates – just short of a gun point – to do likewise. Poor souls (and their trembling wives) just had no choice. The whole story just sounded a lot like a typical (i.e. bad) Hollywood movie. Being nailed down, the repentant Lance went on TV shows and shed crocodile tears. Fans with some experience can easily recall the drama. One possible – and quite likely, in my view – explanation for all that is that Lance or someone else involved in the motor program somehow leaked sensitive info or got out of hand, and an urgent cover-up was deemed to be necessary as a motor-dope scandal could – at that time – potentially ruin the whole business. And that good old organic doping related drama was just the required cover-up.
Finally, why did motor doping make such a radical return in 2020, during the gloomy covid times? What was wrong with the good old relatively mild organic doping of a decade ago with its under 6 W/kg performances of the Sky era? Who knows. Maybe the business was struggling and was deemed to be needing some superheros to satisfy the tastes of the new fans of the instagram/tik-tok generation. Maybe the process of its monopolization went far enough so that any dangerous information leaks were no longer possible (as per Chomsky video posted earlier in this thread). We won’t know the correct answer for a while. Does motor doping make professional cycling a version of WWE? It pretty much does. But any professional sport is an entertainment business, the more so with every passing year, it seems. So, if its newer fan base is sufficiently “socially networked” and correspondingly simple minded, this is what it might become.
P.S. As one poster asked recently: if he knows he is a cheater, why is he so arrogant on the road with reckless attacks and inane celebrations. As Dr. Goebbels said a long time ago, a lie must be big and blatant to be believed. So, acting as if you are 100% clean and fully entitled to all those ridiculous nose breathing moped speed performances is the best way to make the (certain kind of) public believe them.
P.P.S. There have recently appeared some humorous “explanations” as to why Toddles is so much faster uphill than the EPO prodigy and born climber sub 60 kilo Pantani. It’s the “modern” bikes, folks, that give the rider so much aero advantage at 24 km/h. Well, if aero is so important at those speeds, and 80% of the aero resistance is due to the rider's body, then Toddly (or his hapless competitors, for that matter) would go faster still if he changed his “coal miner” 45 degrees body to horizontal posture on the bike to a flat back one. Yet he cares little about such angles, just merrily spinning 100+ rpm up any mountain, smiling, his hair nice and dry. Pantani, btw, was famous for climbing standing in the drops – and thus a nearly flat back. So, yeah, it is most likely the bikes, but with a little secret inside.
P.P.P.S. I was also waiting for someone to mention “AI” as one of those “explanations”: “AI is used for training plans, recovery etc..” I did not have high hopes for such a proposal coming, honestly, but recently it did come from one of apologists (and not just AI, but “cognetive AI” which must be really powerful and capable of effecting miracles we are witnessing here). Indeed, how can you live in 2024 without the ubiquitous “AI”. Thank you, sir, for educating us.
I find this post really funny.
''Everyone is doped and you guys still watch it all?" Actually I don't believe everyone is doped, not at all. There's a reason that a few teams have seen massive bumps in performance this year and everyone else looks like they're going backwards... still pushing the old watts while the richest teams suddenly see 10%+ improvements in just a couple of years.
Cognitive AI increases watts? First, it's called "Generative AI" not "Cognitive AI." Second, do you even know what LLM's do? Ask Chat GPT to build you a training program lolz. I'm sure you'll soon be dominating your local circuit. One of the biggest pitfalls we make as modern people is we look at the people of the past as if they were primitive and unintelligent, and in the case of athletics we say that we train more. The truth is that while we have better knowledge now, the people of the past were just as smart and trained just as hard as now.
Iphones also don't increase your watts, not sure what the argument is here. If you're trying to say we went from Nokia phones to iPhone 15's over night, that's clearly false. it took many years. On the other hand, human performance (not for everyone mind, just a few top riders from a few top teams) has radically improved in just 3 years. Odd, that. Almost like some shady Dr's have had a research breakthrough. Oh wait, they have. Altitude science, aka blood manipulation and using altitude to mask it.
"It's simple evolution nothing else." – The human species doesn't evolve from year to year. I don't think natural selection is taking place ... unless you think mates are now being chosen on the basis of how skinny their arms are and how high their Vo2 is. Seems implausible.
"Thats just my guess and wether or not most of you are ready to admit that or not thats mostly it." Go spend your life savings playing your Lotto Destiny with guesses like that!
"Remember life is great guys and enjoy it." Life actually is a b*** and then you die. That's why we get high (on EPO and Tramadol). This is probably the most absurd claim you made in your entire statement.
Last edited:
This is why his comment about doping + health = stupid is so funny
Do you really believe about motor doping? I believe this is 100% bull****
I really, _really_ hope you're wrong. But I can not be sure. Nor can anybody else for that matter.
Biological doping is wrong, but at least it's still a human body doing the work in the end. If it turned out to be motors in a couple of years? I'd be like f it, I'll never watch the sport again.
Completely off-topic: You also nailed my pet peeve. People trying to throw in 'AI' into every conversation. 90% of the time they're just talking about good old computer programs with algorithms that are manually written. It's like everything that involves a computer nowadays is called AI.
The notion that people are getting away with motor doping these days is really in flat earth territory. Way too easy to find something like that on a bike.
In the "Cancellara days"....maybe but HIGHLY unlikely IMO.
In the "Cancellara days"....maybe but HIGHLY unlikely IMO.
If they motodope right now i think we need to cancel this sport
If thinking about how Visma acts, if thinking about Jonas injuries, if thinking about compared to Wout... mechanical doping makes more sense than just TUE and huffing. The more I think about it.
Don't they use scanners for the stage winners bikes now? Don't motors produce heat as well? Could that not be easily defected as well? Like by fans, journalists, the officials if they want?
Yes. On the one hand, I really can't imagine it happening. I mean, a professional cyclist using a moto, I imagine, wouldn't think anything of himself and get depressed. On the other hand, there's still a lot of money involved. And we've been surprised in bad ways so many times before.
(For the record, I still think there's something going around like the CO-breather thing or another substance that's just not on the list -yet-. But if it's moto's I'd be absolutely disgusted.)
Last edited:
I'm sure motor doping has been done and maybe still is, but to get away with it in a systematic way would be such a challenge that I can't see it. Nowadays I'm sure it's probably something that sprinters might use to get through a mountain stage at the back etc... not something that gets used to win stages at Grand Tours.
Would be a hilarious way to explain the "I'm gone, I'm dead" episode from last season though lol.
Would it be so much harder bribing people scanning for motors than people who make doping tests? Bribes are part of every doping equation I do nowadays, no matter what kind.
I wouldn't put it past Plugge or Gianetti. It suits the instrumentality of Visma and the lack of democracy in UAE
I'm literally just a noob, but not asking the motor questions to me seem too optimistic. From a noob perspective.
I wouldn't put it past Plugge or Gianetti. It suits the instrumentality of Visma and the lack of democracy in UAE
I'm literally just a noob, but not asking the motor questions to me seem too optimistic. From a noob perspective.
Motors would be believable for one-offs but too many riders are increasing their level overall for it to make sense imo. It says a lot about the state of cycling that motors are even in the conversation.
Or what if the moto is not in the bikes, but inside the legs? How would you even scan for that?
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/robotic-exoskeleton-helps-people-walk
Not meaning literally this, but why not, eh? One day it has to happen.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/robotic-exoskeleton-helps-people-walk
Not meaning literally this, but why not, eh? One day it has to happen.
There's a big step from exoskeletons to esoskeletons though, and probably very easy to find if they ever happen.
They have to happen some day 🤣🤣🤣 I'll get one and report back *kidding*.
Maybe uci be like "we have no plans to ban esoskeletons as of now" 🤣🤣🤣
TRENDING THREADS
-
Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2024, stage 20: Villarcayo - Picón Blanco, 172.0k- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 663
-
Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2024, stage 21: Madrid - Madrid, 24.6k (ITT)- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 445
-
Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2024, stage 16: Luanco - Lagos de Covadonga, 181.3k- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 546
-
Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2024, stage 9: Motril - Granada, 179.2k- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 782
-
Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2024, stage 18: Vitoria-Gasteiz - Maeztu, 179.3k- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 392
-
Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2024, stage 15: Infiesto - Cuitu Negru, 142.9k- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 588
-
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram