Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

Even so, Pantani dropped Armstrong on courchevel right?

He was already zillion minutes behind. Armstrong, who crushed Pantani in Hautacam, didn't have to react. OTOH Pantani's suicidal attack during the next stage to Morzine made Armstrong very nervous and likely caused his bonk on Joux Plane (probably forgot to eat properly). Pantani in top form could've definitely made Armstrong nervous more often and beaten him during at least one edition. Still, Armstrong would have been hard to beat in most years other than 2003. I.e. In 2001 he was incredibly strong in the mountains, even Pantani would have had hard time creating gaps then while Armstrong would have crushed him (like he crushed Ullrich and co.) in the last super-long ITT.

 

[Extinction]

Armstrong looked really cranky when Pantani dared to challenge him on Ventoux in 2000. I think he also made some narky comments afterwards. Yet Marco was clearly at a lower level by the 2000 TdF after what happened at Madonna di Campiglio.

That's what I meant. Marco without Madonna di Campiglio would have been an incubus, a cause of difficulty or anxiety.

 

[Extinction]

He was already zillion minutes behind. Armstrong, who crushed Pantani in Hautacam, didn't have to react. OTOH Pantani's suicidal attack during the next stage to Morzine made Armstrong very nervous and likely caused his bonk on Joux Plane (probably forgot to eat properly). Pantani in top form could've definitely made Armstrong nervous more often and beaten him during at least one edition. Still, Armstrong would have been hard to beat in most years other than 2003. I.e. In 2001 he was incredibly strong in the mountains, even Pantani would have had hard time creating gaps then while Armstrong would have crushed him (like he crushed Ullrich and co.) in the last super-long ITT.

It's something we can only imagine. Point is that with 50+ km TTs Armstrong had a buffer, but Pantani at full flight in the mountains, during years we never got to see, when he could have been even better, would have wreaked havoc on the Texan.

 

[Cookster15]

It's something we can only imagine. Point is that with 50+ km TTs Armstrong had a buffer, but Pantani at full flight in the mountains, during years we never got to see, when he could have been even better, would have wreaked havoc on the Texan.

I am glad the mods gave us the freedom to discuss Pantani here. Its amazing we have these vivid memories over 20 years later. I hope a few younger fans take note. I am not Italian, and I deplore doping to gain an unfair advantage, but I believe Marco Pantani was a generational talent who was a victim of the times. I will never forget his feats and his demise is a great tragedy.

 

[Extinction]

I am glad the mods gave us the freedom to discuss Pantani here. Its amazing we have these vivid memories over 20 years later. I hope a few younger fans take note. I am not Italian, and I deplore doping to gain an unfair advantage, but I believe Marco Pantani was a generational talent who was a victim of the times. I will never forget his feats and his demise is a great tragedy.

I started racing in 82, came to Italy in 95, then learned how cycling works. It is what it is, but Pantani was a sacred monster. As Greek tragedy goes, you can't fly too close to the sun unless you are protected by the gods.

 

[Nomad]

Armstrong looked really cranky when Pantani dared to challenge him on Ventoux in 2000. I think he also made some narky comments afterwards. Yet Marco was clearly at a lower level by the 2000 TdF after what happened at Madonna di Campiglio.

LA had no respect for Pantani. In the interview with Peter Attia, he states the only rival he feared & kept him up at night was Ullrich. He mentions Beloki & how he felt sorry for him reference his career-ending crash. But not a peep about the Pirate.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Armstrong had no respect for Pantani. In the interview with Peter Attia, Armstrong states the only rival he feared & kept him up at night was Ullrich. He mentions Beloki & how he felt sorry for him reference his career-ending crash. But not a peep about the Pirate.

Well, obviously he didn‘t fear Pantani because he knew that Pantani was a mentally broken drug addict. He would have learned to fear Pantani if the ’90s Pantani had ever showed up to one of the 2000s Tours. Besides 2000, GC Armstrong never even faced Pantani. We also wouldn‘t see Indurain constantly talking about LeMond or Merckx about Anquetil because they didn‘t race each other much.

 

[snipeheem]

I am glad the mods gave us the freedom to discuss Pantani here. Its amazing we have these vivid memories over 20 years later. I hope a few younger fans take note. I am not Italian, and I deplore doping to gain an unfair advantage, but I believe Marco Pantani was a generational talent who was a victim of the times. I will never forget his feats and his demise is a great tragedy.

Bro , i am the youngster here learning about history of cycling and i think everybody here love Marco and tell me to watch his legendary attacks. I wonder what will be the result if Marco was compete against jonas / pog in this era of cycling? Who would win tour Marco or any of this 2 alliens ( sorry for my english but im drunk a little bit right now and is not my first language

 

[snipeheem]

LA had no respect for Pantani. In the interview with Peter Attia, he states the only rival he feared & kept him up at night was Ullrich. He mentions Beloki & how he felt sorry for him reference his career-ending crash. But not a peep about the Pirate.

He disrespect Marco in interview after Ventoux that giving him the stage was mistake. Marco said„ Pantani didnt need armstrong to win , he need mountains” and then 2-3 days after he attack on Courchevel

 

[Nomad]

Well, obviously he didn‘t fear Pantani because he knew that Pantani was a mentally broken drug addict. He would have learned to fear Pantani if the ’90s Pantani had ever showed up to one of the 2000s Tours. Besides 2000, GC Armstrong never even faced Pantani. We also wouldn‘t see Indurain constantly talking about LeMond or Merckx about Anquetil because they didn‘t race each other much.

My point is from that interview with Attia, he said he didn't fear anyone but Ullrich. In fact, he said Ullrich was the "most talented rider" that he's ever seen. And how can you argue with a 7-time Tour winner. He pretty much smoked everyone - he could climb with the best, a time trial talent & he had tremendous skill staying out of crashes.

It would have been interesting to see him battle it out with Big Mig (at his prime of course). That would have been the battle of the century; Mano a Mano!

 

[Ripper]

My point is from that interview with Attia, he said he didn't fear anyone but Ullrich. In fact, he said Ullrich was the "most talented rider" that he's ever seen. And how can you argue with a 7-time Tour winner. He pretty much smoked everyone - he could climb with the best, a time trial talent & he had tremendous skill staying out of crashes.

It would have been interesting to see him battle it out with Big Mig (at his prime of course). That would have been the battle of the century; Mano a Mano!

I know it is not what you mean, but there was that time that Big Mig ripped past Armstrong in a Tour TT (before the cancer diagnosis and GT transformation)

 

[Extinction]

LA had no respect for Pantani. In the interview with Peter Attia, he states the only rival he feared & kept him up at night was Ullrich. He mentions Beloki & how he felt sorry for him reference his career-ending crash. But not a peep about the Pirate.

Because it was post-Madonna di Campiglio. Armstrong knew Pantani was no longer an issue. He was a broken man. 2000 was a last, feable attempt to re-charge his career, but Pantani was a mere shadow of himself. His suicide attack at the Tour began the long drift towards actually killing himself. Yet had Madonna di Campiglio never happened, Armstrong would have been seriously concerned on every mountain stage. You can't compare Pantani pre to post Madonna di Campiglio, This is why Armstrong had no respect for him when he became a serious Tour contender. Had the Texan been one in 98, however, he certainly would have had respect for him. The same goes for 94, 95 and 97. But then Lance was so out of the Tour GC picture that his only fear was the time cuts (in 97 he obviously wasn't there).

 

[Extinction]

He was already zillion minutes behind. Armstrong, who crushed Pantani in Hautacam, didn't have to react. OTOH Pantani's suicidal attack during the next stage to Morzine made Armstrong very nervous and likely caused his bonk on Joux Plane (probably forgot to eat properly). Pantani in top form could've definitely made Armstrong nervous more often and beaten him during at least one edition. Still, Armstrong would have been hard to beat in most years other than 2003. I.e. In 2001 he was incredibly strong in the mountains, even Pantani would have had hard time creating gaps then while Armstrong would have crushed him (like he crushed Ullrich and co.) in the last super-long ITT.

To the bolded, we simply can't know what Pantani would have done had he been given a free pass like Armstrong was. It's reasonable to presume, however, that he would have continued to be a dominate force in the mountains. But Pantani was stopped at the moment he was entering his absolute peak. Without Madonna di Campiglio, the 99 Tour, especially in the third week, looks totally different imho. Armstrong would not have crushed Pantani on Hautacam in 2000 either, because Marco would have been in top shape, which he clearly wasn't at the time. So many things could or would have been different. Although the 50 + km TTs still would always have favored the heavier contenders, which is why I don't think Marco would have consistently won the Tour. But I do say he would have been the single-most troublesome rider to Armstrong, again had Madonna di Campiglio not happened.

 

[Roba Bartali]

The unique thing about CRISPR is that it can be used in adolescence and childhood. This is how drivers are being mutated and do not have to dope during their actual careers. They become their own doping labs. Altered genomes are very hard to detect, if at all.

 

[pastronef]

I know it is not what you mean, but there was that time that Big Mig ripped past Armstrong in a Tour TT (before the cancer diagnosis and GT transformation)

Perigueux-Bergerac TT 1994

 

[Cookster15]

He would have learned to fear Pantani if the ’90s Pantani had ever showed up to one of the 2000s Tours. Besides 2000, GC Armstrong never even faced Pantani.

Well said. We know Armstrong feared Jan Ullrich and yet look what little Marco did to Der Kaiser in the 1998 Tour when Ullrich was the defending champ and overwhelming favorite. Another example of Armstrong's flawed persona is his attitude to Pantani. Everyone predicted Lance would beat Pantani's record in the 2004 Alpe TT. Thank goodness he didn't come close.

 

[Extinction]

Bro , i am the youngster here learning about history of cycling and i think everybody here love Marco and tell me to watch his legendary attacks. I wonder what will be the result if Marco was compete against jonas / pog in this era of cycling? Who would win tour Marco or any of this 2 alliens ( sorry for my english but im drunk a little bit right now and is not my first language

Impossible to know. I don't think Marco could have lived with the cycling of today (had he just been taken from his era into today's). He wouldn't even wear a heart rate monitor. His training was entirely on instinct. To lose the last kg or so, he simply would ride for 6 hours without food or water. He would have benefited from the increased performance of today's bikes and gear, but not the new training methods, because he probably would have simply refused to follow them. Abiding by all the new performance science likely just wasn't for him, who rather needed to go on his own creative instinct and imagination. In this Pog is a bit similar, but doubtless more methodological in his preparation.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Impossible to know. I don't think Marco could have lived with the cycling of today (had he just been taken from his era into today's). He wouldn't even wear a heart rate monitor. His training was entirely on instinct. To lose the last kgm or so, he simply would ride for 6 hours without food or water. He would have benefited from the increased performance of today's bikes and gear, but not the new training methods, because he probably would have simply refused to follow them. Abiding by all the new performance science likely just wasn't for him, who rather needed to go on his own creative instinct and imagination. In this Pog is a bit similar, but doubtless more methodological in his preparation.

GTs nowadays are better suited to Pantani: less long TTs, races generally dominated by guys up to 65 kg, no big boys like Indurain, Ullrich or Armstrong. He would be a monster today IMO.

 

[Extinction]

GTs nowadays are better suited to Pantani: less long TTs, races generally dominated by guys up to 65 kg, no big boys like Indurain, Ullrich or Armstrong. He would be a monster today IMO.

If he had been from this generation, I suppose he would have been forged on the same scientific-technical methodology of today. In other words, he'd be a man of these times and not his own, which, compared to today's cycling, was like old-school auto garage craftmanship in how things were done compared to NASA.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If he had been from this generation, I suppose he would have been forged on the same scientific-technical methodology of today. In other words, he'd be a man of these times and not his own, which, compared to today's cycling, was like auto garage craftmanship in how things were done, compared to NASA.

I think he would adapt: being a bit more "civilized" regarding scientific training but equally unpredictable during races. His style could actually cost him some GTs vs guys like Pogacar and Vingo as he wasn't always consistent with his performances but the battles between those 3 would be highlights of this era.

 

[kingjr]

After 25 years, we still have people writing fan fiction about what Pantani could have done to Armstrong, good stuff.

 

[Extinction]

I think he would adapt: being a bit more "civilized" regarding scientific training but equally unpredictable during races. His style could actually cost him some GTs vs guys like Pogacar and Vingo as he wasn't always consistent with his performances but the battles between those 3 would be highlights of this era.

Yea, although his at times inconsistancy was due to a) in the early years not riding with GC ambitions and thus purposefully shipping time when he wasn't going for his stage targets; b) coming back from the horrific crash in Milano-Torino; and then obviously the effects of Madonna di Campiglio thereafter. But in 98-99, he was just a constant GT beast. I think today's performance science would have fixed any of those performance downturns, and you would have seen something more like Pog and Vingo from March through the Tour. Anyway, Pantani raced the Tour at 57 kg, not 63-65, so he'd still have difficulty in the non-mountain TTs. But give him today's bikes and training and I think he'd be crushing his own climbing records and thus, at least here, be dropping Pog and Vingo.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

But give him today's bikes and training and I think he'd be crushing his own climbing records and thus, at least here, be dropping Pog and Vingo.

Regarding the records I'm more skeptical. They were riding on rocket fuel in the 90s so another aspect is whether methods nowadays are as efficient as no-limit EPO use back then.

 

[Red Rick]

His suicide attack at the Tour began the long drift towards actually killing himself.

What the hell did I just read?

 

[Extinction]

Regarding the records I'm more skeptical. They were riding on rocket fuel in the 90s so another aspect is whether methods nowadays are as efficient as no-limit EPO use back then.

I'd say so, but that's a tough call.