Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ripper]

My point is from that interview with Attia, he said he didn't fear anyone but Ullrich. In fact, he said Ullrich was the "most talented rider" that he's ever seen. And how can you argue with a 7-time Tour winner. He pretty much smoked everyone - he could climb with the best, a time trial talent & he had tremendous skill staying out of crashes.

It would have been interesting to see him battle it out with Big Mig (at his prime of course). That would have been the battle of the century; Mano a Mano!

I know it is not what you mean, but there was that time that Big Mig ripped past Armstrong in a Tour TT (before the cancer diagnosis and GT transformation)

 

[Extinction]

LA had no respect for Pantani. In the interview with Peter Attia, he states the only rival he feared & kept him up at night was Ullrich. He mentions Beloki & how he felt sorry for him reference his career-ending crash. But not a peep about the Pirate.

Because it was post-Madonna di Campiglio. Armstrong knew Pantani was no longer an issue. He was a broken man. 2000 was a last, feable attempt to re-charge his career, but Pantani was a mere shadow of himself. His suicide attack at the Tour began the long drift towards actually killing himself. Yet had Madonna di Campiglio never happened, Armstrong would have been seriously concerned on every mountain stage. You can't compare Pantani pre to post Madonna di Campiglio, This is why Armstrong had no respect for him when he became a serious Tour contender. Had the Texan been one in 98, however, he certainly would have had respect for him. The same goes for 94, 95 and 97. But then Lance was so out of the Tour GC picture that his only fear was the time cuts (in 97 he obviously wasn't there).

 

[Extinction]

He was already zillion minutes behind. Armstrong, who crushed Pantani in Hautacam, didn't have to react. OTOH Pantani's suicidal attack during the next stage to Morzine made Armstrong very nervous and likely caused his bonk on Joux Plane (probably forgot to eat properly). Pantani in top form could've definitely made Armstrong nervous more often and beaten him during at least one edition. Still, Armstrong would have been hard to beat in most years other than 2003. I.e. In 2001 he was incredibly strong in the mountains, even Pantani would have had hard time creating gaps then while Armstrong would have crushed him (like he crushed Ullrich and co.) in the last super-long ITT.

To the bolded, we simply can't know what Pantani would have done had he been given a free pass like Armstrong was. It's reasonable to presume, however, that he would have continued to be a dominate force in the mountains. But Pantani was stopped at the moment he was entering his absolute peak. Without Madonna di Campiglio, the 99 Tour, especially in the third week, looks totally different imho. Armstrong would not have crushed Pantani on Hautacam in 2000 either, because Marco would have been in top shape, which he clearly wasn't at the time. So many things could or would have been different. Although the 50 + km TTs still would always have favored the heavier contenders, which is why I don't think Marco would have consistently won the Tour. But I do say he would have been the single-most troublesome rider to Armstrong, again had Madonna di Campiglio not happened.

 

[Roba Bartali]

The unique thing about CRISPR is that it can be used in adolescence and childhood. This is how drivers are being mutated and do not have to dope during their actual careers. They become their own doping labs. Altered genomes are very hard to detect, if at all.

 

[pastronef]

I know it is not what you mean, but there was that time that Big Mig ripped past Armstrong in a Tour TT (before the cancer diagnosis and GT transformation)

Perigueux-Bergerac TT 1994

 

[Cookster15]

He would have learned to fear Pantani if the ’90s Pantani had ever showed up to one of the 2000s Tours. Besides 2000, GC Armstrong never even faced Pantani.

Well said. We know Armstrong feared Jan Ullrich and yet look what little Marco did to Der Kaiser in the 1998 Tour when Ullrich was the defending champ and overwhelming favorite. Another example of Armstrong's flawed persona is his attitude to Pantani. Everyone predicted Lance would beat Pantani's record in the 2004 Alpe TT. Thank goodness he didn't come close.

 

[Extinction]

Bro , i am the youngster here learning about history of cycling and i think everybody here love Marco and tell me to watch his legendary attacks. I wonder what will be the result if Marco was compete against jonas / pog in this era of cycling? Who would win tour Marco or any of this 2 alliens ( sorry for my english but im drunk a little bit right now and is not my first language

Impossible to know. I don't think Marco could have lived with the cycling of today (had he just been taken from his era into today's). He wouldn't even wear a heart rate monitor. His training was entirely on instinct. To lose the last kg or so, he simply would ride for 6 hours without food or water. He would have benefited from the increased performance of today's bikes and gear, but not the new training methods, because he probably would have simply refused to follow them. Abiding by all the new performance science likely just wasn't for him, who rather needed to go on his own creative instinct and imagination. In this Pog is a bit similar, but doubtless more methodological in his preparation.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Impossible to know. I don't think Marco could have lived with the cycling of today (had he just been taken from his era into today's). He wouldn't even wear a heart rate monitor. His training was entirely on instinct. To lose the last kgm or so, he simply would ride for 6 hours without food or water. He would have benefited from the increased performance of today's bikes and gear, but not the new training methods, because he probably would have simply refused to follow them. Abiding by all the new performance science likely just wasn't for him, who rather needed to go on his own creative instinct and imagination. In this Pog is a bit similar, but doubtless more methodological in his preparation.

GTs nowadays are better suited to Pantani: less long TTs, races generally dominated by guys up to 65 kg, no big boys like Indurain, Ullrich or Armstrong. He would be a monster today IMO.

 

[Extinction]

GTs nowadays are better suited to Pantani: less long TTs, races generally dominated by guys up to 65 kg, no big boys like Indurain, Ullrich or Armstrong. He would be a monster today IMO.

If he had been from this generation, I suppose he would have been forged on the same scientific-technical methodology of today. In other words, he'd be a man of these times and not his own, which, compared to today's cycling, was like old-school auto garage craftmanship in how things were done compared to NASA.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If he had been from this generation, I suppose he would have been forged on the same scientific-technical methodology of today. In other words, he'd be a man of these times and not his own, which, compared to today's cycling, was like auto garage craftmanship in how things were done, compared to NASA.

I think he would adapt: being a bit more "civilized" regarding scientific training but equally unpredictable during races. His style could actually cost him some GTs vs guys like Pogacar and Vingo as he wasn't always consistent with his performances but the battles between those 3 would be highlights of this era.

 

[kingjr]

After 25 years, we still have people writing fan fiction about what Pantani could have done to Armstrong, good stuff.

 

[Extinction]

I think he would adapt: being a bit more "civilized" regarding scientific training but equally unpredictable during races. His style could actually cost him some GTs vs guys like Pogacar and Vingo as he wasn't always consistent with his performances but the battles between those 3 would be highlights of this era.

Yea, although his at times inconsistancy was due to a) in the early years not riding with GC ambitions and thus purposefully shipping time when he wasn't going for his stage targets; b) coming back from the horrific crash in Milano-Torino; and then obviously the effects of Madonna di Campiglio thereafter. But in 98-99, he was just a constant GT beast. I think today's performance science would have fixed any of those performance downturns, and you would have seen something more like Pog and Vingo from March through the Tour. Anyway, Pantani raced the Tour at 57 kg, not 63-65, so he'd still have difficulty in the non-mountain TTs. But give him today's bikes and training and I think he'd be crushing his own climbing records and thus, at least here, be dropping Pog and Vingo.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

But give him today's bikes and training and I think he'd be crushing his own climbing records and thus, at least here, be dropping Pog and Vingo.

Regarding the records I'm more skeptical. They were riding on rocket fuel in the 90s so another aspect is whether methods nowadays are as efficient as no-limit EPO use back then.

 

[Extinction]

Regarding the records I'm more skeptical. They were riding on rocket fuel in the 90s so another aspect is whether methods nowadays are as efficient as no-limit EPO use back then.

I'd say so, but that's a tough call.

 

[Extinction]

What the hell did I just read?

He gave up on himself with that suicide attack, because it was all or nothing and, deep down, he must have realized that it was a ride into oblivion. In this it's metaphorical of the greater abyss that awaited him.

 

[GuntherL1]

Well Landa, Vlasov and Mas are not stronger riders than those currently behind Pog at this Giro. You’d could make a case for Kuss on last year’s Vuelta but Landa was convincingly beaten by Jai Hindley two years ago.

You’d have more credibility if you commented about any other rider - including Vingegaard? You are certainly not impartial and this is the biggest issue I have with your opinion as the OP. A thread on Pog would have been posted by someone else anyway after the 2020 TdF knowing what happened on stage 20 and the sport’s history. But other posters are not so myopic IMO. For example we know @Froome is a big Vingegaard fan here but way more fair and objective.

Yeah, Mas only finished 2nd in the Vuelta GC 3 times. What a fourth tier loser he is. So Kuss is better with his more or less gifted Vuelta? Interesting.

I'm not a Vingegaard fan and I don't trust his meteoric rise. I have also called out Gilberts 2011, Horners Vuelta win and Froome on the Ventoux so I have no idea why I wouldn't be fair or objective. I don't have the obligation to comment on each suspicious rider. Pogacar is the most notable as he does his thing on every terrain and his team is managed by someone who should not be active in cycling any more (and surrounded by other crooks for that matter). That's why I included the Suisse cheater in the name of the topic.

 

[GuntherL1]

Pog takes 1min 45 sec on 6 km of climbing on the rest of the 'elite' climbers and it's not even the first time this Giro. Generational talent. LOL.

 

[GuntherL1]

This is hilarious.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1794379638023868663

View: https://x.com/WattsinCycling/status/1794379638023868663

 

[Ripper]

This is hilarious.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1794379638023868663

View: https://x.com/WattsinCycling/status/1794379638023868663

Indeed. I thought we would see some watt bombage today. Boyo is on a mission. Today is a combination of climbing practice and time trial practice, as evidenced by the continual pressing at the front. It's not enough to win.

I think somewhere, someone made a comment about Toto not really caring about records; I would completely disagree with that though, he seems very much interested in records and setting his own legacy.

 

[Red Rick]

Less than a minute on a 2014 climbing time on a >50 minute climb with teammates setting you up?

In terms of pure W/kg bombs this Giro hasn't delivered

 

[Peyroteo94]

Less than a minute on a 2014 climbing time on a >50 minute climb with teammates setting you up?

In terms of pure W/kg bombs this Giro hasn't delivered

Double ascent and his team doesn't have enough climbers to put a insane pace for 30 minutes.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Wow

 

[GuntherL1]

Less than a minute on a 2014 climbing time on a >50 minute climb with teammates setting you up?

In terms of pure W/kg bombs this Giro hasn't delivered

I would expect a 26,8 km TT to go faster than a 184 km stage with a double ascent.
The two fastest times on the Mont Ventoux came from the TT in theDauphiné 2004. None of the TdF climbs ever came close, not in even the EPO years of 1994 and 1999.
That tells you how 'special' Pogacars performance was today.

Speed & Glory on Mont Ventoux: TOP 50 fastest rides on the Giant of Provence

© Cyclingnews/John Pierce 1. 2004: 55:51 Iban Mayo 23.10 km/h 2. 2004: 56:26 Tyler Hamilton 22.86 km/h 3. 1999: 56:50 Jonathan V...

www.climbing-records.com

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Less than a minute on a 2014 climbing time on a >50 minute climb with teammates setting you up?

In terms of pure W/kg bombs this Giro hasn't delivered

I would expect Pogacar to be faster in a standalone effort actually, instead of being paced by Bjerg for a few km (without gaining anything on Pelizzari). He did 1720 m/h of VAM for almost 52 minutes which is a very strong effort. However, excluding two downhill/flat sections, he did 1770 m/h of VAM for 50 minutes, which is incredible performance.

 

[Netserk]

I would expect a 26,8 km TT to go faster than a 184 km stage with a double ascent.
The two fastest times on the Mont Ventoux came from the TT in theDauphiné 2004. None of the TdF climbs ever came close, not in even the EPO years of 1994 and 1999.
That tells you how 'special' Pogacars performance was today.

Speed & Glory on Mont Ventoux: TOP 50 fastest rides on the Giant of Provence

© Cyclingnews/John Pierce 1. 2004: 55:51 Iban Mayo 23.10 km/h 2. 2004: 56:26 Tyler Hamilton 22.86 km/h 3. 1999: 56:50 Jonathan V...

www.climbing-records.com

Ventoux was a MTT in 1987. In a normal stage in 1994, Pantani was nearly 4 minutes faster.

Fast era beats slow era, MTT or not.