Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Nomad]

Honestly something is going on since 2020, but my take is they are taking doping.....but legal doping, something who is not banned. Something ethically wrong, but legal.

Just my take. I don’t believe they are risking with something illegal at least yet, but i can be wrong....

Are you talking about a dietary supplement(s), or an actual pharmaceutical(s) that's not on the banned list? (whatever that may be).

What about EPO microdosing & plain old blood transfusions? I do a lot of research on doping on the athletics side of things. If look at professional distance running the substances where the vast majority of the bans are coming from are: 1) rEPO, 2) Blood transfusions (ABP hematological anomalies cases) & 3)Testosterone/Nandrolonoe. And it's really been this way for years now with dopers trying to figure how to maximize their doping program while flying under the radar of the ABP.

If it's something legal & not banned with the cyclists, what on Earth could that be? What is the "big secret" with a legal substance(s)? I don't see how a legal substance(s) could be kept so clandestine. Athletes, coaches, trainers, etc, love to gossip & with social media these days, they have a platform to do all that talking on. Lol

EPO & testosterone have been one of the popular stacks with endurance athletes for decades. Matt Mosman, MS, of EndurElite explains why this cocktail is so popular with athletes:

View: https://youtu.be/o5uNN8fwCQE?si=G8ZUO3MgS_piZBUG

 

[Ripper]

Why? He is universally popular. Why Pogacar is popular should not be difficult to comprehend.

Contador was super popular. If you don't like cycling don't watch it. And the fact is Pogacar was convincingly beaten by Vingegaard at the last two TdF. So I don't understand your obsession with Pogacar - if I go to the Vingegaard thread I don't see you there during the Tour - why not?

I had this argument with @The Hitch over 10 years ago here. The point Hitch made then was enjoy the show. The riders and teams will tell us if anything unfair is going on.

Nobodies perfect? But I do have a few moments, so ...

I do not find it curious why he is popular. I find fanboyism and desiring alien performances to be the odd thing. I likely post less during the Tour because I check out more during that race, and sometimes I'm on vacation I still post about JJ Viggo, but I post more about Taddy year round because he does his thing more year round. I thought last year I posted about both of them, but perhaps my memory is wrong? Or perhaps I posted about Viggo on a different thread (still in the clinic)? It is not like I find his performances believable

A while back I posted about Contadope and Piti, although much more about Piti when he was digging a hole with denial when he was popped. And the Chicken, and the Froomenator, etc. I do tend to pick on riders who seem to be able to do everything and win everywhere all year long.

I do enjoy the show. I also feel it is absolutely fair game to call out freakshows and preposterous stuff, which is what I think the clinic is for. As do you, I think? On the flip side, you might post more about Viggo than Poggi in the clinic, but that could just be my perception?

The riders and teams have dropped that ball before, so I am not so sure. I mean, it was not the riders nor the teams that busted Pharmstrong or some of the other more prolific folks.

I was quite enjoying the U23 XCO stuff today though. Nove Mesto is a cool course!

 

[zlev11]

That may well be the case. I'm glad, at any rate, that you have come around to my point of view.

well no, i was very aware of the weak field at this race. i just really dislike the direction that cycling is headed. it's become more about fanboying-out at single riders dominating than embracing actual competition. you saw it with Kuss at the Vuelta last year. to me that was really eye opening, to see the vast majority of fans actually wanting team orders rather than a race between the teammates. RCS fed this race to Pogacar on a platter; it was clear they just wanted "Pogacar doing Pogacar things" (i hate that phrase) rather than any kind of actual GC race. they paid the guy to show up and crap all over their race! it's insane to me. it's not very fun to watch.

 

[Froome]

Are you talking about a dietary supplement(s), or an actual pharmaceutical(s) that's not on the banned list? (whatever that may be).

What about EPO microdosing & plain old blood transfusions? I do a lot of research on doping on the athletics side of things. If look at professional distance running the substances where the vast majority of the bans are coming from are: 1) rEPO, 2) Blood transfusions (ABP hematological anomalies cases) & 3)Testosterone/Nandrolonoe. And it's really been this way for years now with dopers trying to figure how to maximize their doping program while flying under the radar of the ABP.

If it's something legal & not banned with the cyclists, what on Earth could that be? What is the "big secret" with a legal substance(s)? I don't see how a legal substance(s) could be kept so clandestine. Athletes, coaches, trainers, etc, love to gossip & with social media these days, they have a platform to do all that talking on. Lol.

Maybe something like that, or something like this, illegal but almost impossible to detect.

Tour de France rider tried to obtain marine worm haemoglobin for blood doping boost

'This is a product to look for in competition' French AFLD tells l'Equipe of super haemoglobin

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[topcat]

I'm sorry sir, we're not questioning if it's an ultra dodgy poop filled diaper performance, we're trying to gauge if it's more ultradodgypoopy than all the other ones


The worst is when they get a Nathan van Hooydonck on commentary and get him to tell you how cleanz Pogacar is.

It was absolutely cringe listening to van Hooydonck. Thankfully, I had the rugby to switch back to. A clown show and not even a fight for the minor places.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

cringe

topcat is a gen z confirmed

 

[senna6541]

Pre-Covid van der Poel and van Aert were still in the process of transitioning to road cycling, and Pogacar was too young to make much of an impact pre-Covid, aside from his 3rd place at the Vuelta.

And 2019 MVDP was in full beast mode in CX, MTB and while dabbling on the road - strongest guy in the race at RVV, absolutely smoking
Alaphilippe at Brabantse Pijl, Amstel Gold win, and dominating Tour Britain. He actually came back from covid way off form. If anyone has the known genetic history and career progression to suggest no doping, it's MVDP. Who knows what the deal is, but if everyone in the peloton is clean, he is still easily the best one day racer in the world. Best bike handler, go for broke killer instinct, and pretty obvious God-given physical talent. Winning 150+ elite CX races is probably not a bad way to build the top end either.

 

[Nomad]

Maybe something like that, or something like this, illegal but almost impossible to detect.

Tour de France rider tried to obtain marine worm haemoglobin for blood doping boost

'This is a product to look for in competition' French AFLD tells l'Equipe of super haemoglobin

www.cyclingnews.com

Very Interesting...thanks for that link.

However, if the mechanism is the boosting of Hgb, wouldn't the athlete still be bounded by the upper limit thresholds of their individual ABP upper/lower parameters? A repeated breach of the upper limit thresholds of Hgb/Hct, RET%, RBCs, OFF-score, etc, can result in an ABP hematological anomalies case against the athlete.

Furthermore, would Pogacar & Vingegaard be the only riders currently using this? Or do you think it's widespread among the top GC guys as no one wants to be left behind with new & innovative performance boosting substances?

 

[Cookster15]

what show? what kind of show is watching a guy ride away for 2+ minutes on the climbs multiple times and then also beat everyone in the time trials? who wants to watch that? other than fanboys

You tell me? Were you here during the 2022 TdF? Polls of posters saying it was one of the most entertaining Tours. If you say so people. And just a reminder, of all the absurd things Pogacar has done, including his dominance against a mediocre field at this Giro, none of that comes close to Skeletor’s 2023 stage 16 TT - best time trial ever according to some? From a skinny skeleton climber? Better than Big Mig? The more I follow this sport the more I am convinced it’s WWF wresting on wheels. Enjoy the show folks, turn off your BS metres and don’t care if it’s real.

After I came to grips with Vingegaard I just tried to accept things and “enjoy the show”. Just like The Hitch was telling me back here back in 2011 or so. For some reason I find Pogacar more interesting to follow than Jonas.

 

[topcat]

topcat is a gen z confirmed

I'm gen z + 30 years

 

[QueenStagiaire]

topcat is a gen z confirmed

I think I would throw up before descending to ilmaestro‘s grammar

 

[Nick2413]

That takes not that much energy and Pogacar just trained himself to farm the easy content consistently.

He's jsut TikTok Armstrong.

It just took a decade or so for the marketing department to figure out how to grease the squeaky wheel.

 

[CleanCiclismo]

well no, i was very aware of the weak field at this race. i just really dislike the direction that cycling is headed. it's become more about fanboying-out at single riders dominating than embracing actual competition. you saw it with Kuss at the Vuelta last year. to me that was really eye opening, to see the vast majority of fans actually wanting team orders rather than a race between the teammates. RCS fed this race to Pogacar on a platter; it was clear they just wanted "Pogacar doing Pogacar things" (i hate that phrase) rather than any kind of actual GC race. they paid the guy to show up and crap all over their race! it's insane to me. it's not very fun to watch.

Like it or not. Vegni knew what he was doing when he got Pogačar to show up. This Giro is doing record numbers among viewers. Example: LINK. Pog is the best thing that happened to Giro in a long while. Without him we would see a repeat of last year where nobody attacked and time trials decided the race. Tiberi was the only one who at least tried something. In 20 stages! G got a podium by doing nothing. Same for Martinez.

 

[GuntherL1]

Let me ask you a question....what performance you think was more impressive? The performance today of Pogacar, or the performance of Vingegaard on Tourmalet stage Vuelta 2023?( i'm not gonna even talk about performances in the Tour). Tell me what you think without knowing some data.

Like i said, the level of this Giro was low, and Pogacar did some good performances consistent with what he did in the past years, but i don’t think we saw something outrageous in this Giro.

Everybody is in the "mix", but i didn't saw nothing ridiculous on this Giro, even in W/kg.

Did Vingegaard crush everyone in nearly every stage in that Vuelta? I don't think so. It's not only the performance in a single stage, it's the near invulnerability in every single stage. However, this is not the topic on Vingegaard, so I don't feel the need to talk about him.

You can claim the level of this Giro was low, but we have the former winner of Basque country/Dauphiné and the number of last year's Giro on the podium and I think it's absurd that someone can beat these guys every single time and put two minutes on them during six km of climbing.

 

[GuntherL1]

The riders and teams will tell us if anything unfair is going on.

And it's not just one guy winning. While Pogi is dominant, so is Van der Poel. Likewise Vingegaard.

The more outrageous one of them is, the more leeway the rest have.

How is MvdP as dominant as Pogacar? He won the two races he was made for while most of his opposition was injured or recovering (WVA, Pedersen, Girmay, Stuyven, Laporte, De Lie, etc...)

 

[AmRacer]

How is MvdP as dominant as Pogacar? He won the two races he was made for while most of his opposition was injured or recovering (WVA, Pedersen, Girmay, Stuyven, Laporte, De Lie, etc...)

Only Poggi is a worthy opponent of Mathieu. And Jonas is the only worthy opponent of Poggi regarding GT's

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I'm gen z + 30 years

topcat is genraint thomaz confirmed

 

[topcat]

topcat is genraint thomaz confirmed

I attack a lot more than G but I'm like him in the sense that I ignore attacks and just do my own thing.

 

[Cookster15]

Did Vingegaard crush everyone in nearly every stage in that Vuelta? I don't think so. It's not only the performance in a single stage, it's the near invulnerability in every single stage. However, this is not the topic on Vingegaard, so I don't feel the need to talk about him.

The Vuelta isn’t a valid comparison. Vingegaard rode the Vuelta after he had crushed Pogacar by 7 minutes at the Tour. He also rode to team orders to help reward Kuss for his efforts in the Giro and TdF. Many think Vingegaard could have won the Vuelta. Pogacar started this Giro fresh and primed - not with a grand tour already in his legs and it showed.

 

[Froome]

Did Vingegaard crush everyone in nearly every stage in that Vuelta? I don't think so. It's not only the performance in a single stage, it's the near invulnerability in every single stage. However, this is not the topic on Vingegaard, so I don't feel the need to talk about him.

You can claim the level of this Giro was low, but we have the former winner of Basque country/Dauphiné and the number of last year's Giro on the podium and I think it's absurd that someone can beat these guys every single time and put two minutes on them during six km of climbing.

That's the point, things didn't appeared outrageous on some stages of the Vuelta, like yesterday, because of the weak competition.

If Kuss and Roglic were yesterday on Monte Grappa, you wouldn't think the perfomance of Pogacar was that unbeliavable( even if he probably beat kuss and roglic).

 

[SHAD0W93]

That's the point, things didn't appeared outrageous on some stages of the Vuelta, like yesterday, because of the weak competition.

If Kuss and Roglic were yesterday on Monte Grappa, you wouldn't think the perfomance of Pogacar was that unbeliavable( even if he probably beat kuss and roglic).

Kuss is most likely getting wrecked like everyone else.

 

[Rob5091]

Maybe something like that, or something like this, illegal but almost impossible to detect.

Tour de France rider tried to obtain marine worm haemoglobin for blood doping boost

'This is a product to look for in competition' French AFLD tells l'Equipe of super haemoglobin

www.cyclingnews.com

2018 - and still nothing on thyroid medication that George Bennett talks about, and journalists were told about last year -
https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/grey-area-medications-are-an-issue-in-pro-cycling-says-bennett

... thyroid medication is not really being talked about in cycling the way it is in other sports. It can help you lose weight without losing power, but it can leave you in a bad way afterwards.’

Thyroid medications such as levothyroxine are not on the WADA prohibited list but have been much debated across sport.

 

[AmRacer]

That's the point, things didn't appeared outrageous on some stages of the Vuelta, like yesterday, because of the weak competition.

If Kuss and Roglic were yesterday on Monte Grappa, you wouldn't think the perfomance of Pogacar was that unbeliavable( even if he probably beat kuss and roglic).

If Jonas was there with peak shape, Pog and Jonas would've raced first time up Grappa already. With unbelievable ridiculous numbers.

 

[Red Rick]

If Jonas was there with peak shape, Pog and Jonas would've raced first time up Grappa already. With unbelievable ridiculous numbers.

Nah, Pogacar and Vingegaard only get more passive when they race each other.

 

[Blobs]

You tell me? Were you here during the 2022 TdF? Polls of posters saying it was one of the most entertaining Tours.

Well the big difference was that in that race the overwhelming favorite was actually beaten and the race wasn't over until stage 18 as opposed to before it even began, as was the case with this giro. No comparison really.