Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Peyroteo94]

And then there is the fact that Pogacar has been on killer form since Strade Bianche. He's never had a moment of a real drop in level, all through the spring campaign into summer (including Giro-Tour) and fall (Worlds and most likely Lombardia). It literally defies reason, a miracle, but we all know there are no miracles in cycling. Take his "rivals" this year. Vingegaard is out of competition, Evenepoel can't carry his form from July-August. It's just insane. He remains in stellar form, while the others fade. How does he do it, one might well ask? It truly is miraculous. I can see the aureolae radiating from the heads of Gianetti-Maxtin and hear the sweet sounds of angelic music in the perfumed mist.

I don't want to take away a single word of your post. It is not normal to be so good all season but in my opinion is Pogacar is not close to peak shape in SB or even the Giro, he is just so much better that he can win easily at 80/85% of his level. This discrepancy can't be explained only by doping (that's my point all the time) unless he is using a motor. We already had notorious dopers with a better doping program, better responders to doping and the gap (from LA/Indurain/Contador/Froome to their rivals) was way leaner. Pogacar has something else, high VO2 max, ability to not accumulate lactic acid, I don't know. Or he is using a motor.

 

[topt]

I don't want to take away a single word of your post. It is not normal to be so good all season but in my opinion is Pogacar is not close to peak shape in SB or even the Giro, he is just so much better that he can win easily at 80/85% of his level. This discrepancy can't be explained only by doping (that's my point all the time) unless he is using a motor. We already had notorious dopers with a better doping program, better responders to doping and the gap (from LA/Indurain/Contador/Froome to their rivals) was way leaner. Pogacar has something else, high VO2 max, ability to not accumulate lactic acid, I don't know. Or he is using a motor.

this is what i am hearing

 

[danielovichdk2]

Listen. He is not doping. It's his wheel bearings that is greased top notch.

 

[Divergence]

There have been some posts that unlike other dopers he is at least likable. I believe we saw how likable he is at the end of Flanders 22. In ant case, this is getting ridiculous...

 

[Extinction]

I don't want to take away a single word of your post. It is not normal to be so good all season but in my opinion is Pogacar is not close to peak shape in SB or even the Giro, he is just so much better that he can win easily at 80/85% of his level. This discrepancy can't be explained only by doping (that's my point all the time) unless he is using a motor. We already had notorious dopers with a better doping program, better responders to doping and the gap (from LA/Indurain/Contador/Froome to their rivals) was way leaner. Pogacar has something else, high VO2 max, ability to not accumulate lactic acid, I don't know. Or he is using a motor.

I'd have no problem with this analysis, except I really can't understand how he is so above the rest. If you take the past as an example, the differences between the top tier riders never reached such disproportions. And he is doing it in practically every kind of race imaginable. Even Merckx could meet his match in the mountains against Ocana, who was simply a superior climber, or Hinault who could be beaten even when in fine form. Not Pogacar, who has reached a superiority that goes against everything we know about modern cycling. For the past three decades specialization took over. It was thus thought impossible to win classics, GTs and Worlds by one rider, let alone in the same season. He breaks Pantani's record by 3'40", then goes on a 100 km rampage to win solo at Worlds. Nothing makes sense anymore. Contador was doing "Pantani-like" things with a TT ability that verged on a real specialist until Clengate, but he was nowhere in the classics or Worlds. Froome was a dominant force in the GTs and spring stage races, but similarly was a non-entity in the one-day races. You have to go back to the 80s to have all-rounders, when the doping was much less effective and sophisticated, when you had a select group of riders (Hinault, Fignon, Lemond, Roche, Delgado, Kelly), some of which were less versitile, who were within eachother's reach. Because, although the talent was great, no margin of difference was as large as what we saw from Tadej this year against his rivals. In an era in which performance science has reach such extremely high levels, you wouldn't expect one rider to be so dominant, unless he is ahead in the arms race (chemical or mechanical). It seems improbable, in the era of marginal gains, that there should be such a big difference in talent between the top five-six riders as we are presently witnessing. In my opinion, after the spring, then Giro-Tour-Worlds he should be tired, but that is clearly not the case and it's not normal. He'd have to be truely that much more talented to the other big talents of this era, than has ever been reached between the best riders in the past.

 

[Red Rick]

And then there is the fact that Pogacar has been on killer form since Strade Bianche. He's never had a moment of a real drop in level, all through the spring campaign into summer (including Giro-Tour) and fall (Worlds and most likely Lombardia). It literally defies reason, a miracle, but we all know there are no miracles in cycling. Take his "rivals" this year. Vingegaard is out of competition, Evenepoel can't carry his form from July-August. It's just insane. He remains in stellar form, while the others fade. How does he do it, one might well ask? It truly is miraculous. I can see the aureolae radiating from the heads of Gianetti-Maxtin and hear the sweet sounds of angelic music in the perfumed mist.

Only 'defense' is probably that he wasn't that great in the Giro and that in these specific races Roglic is taken out by the attrition and weather and Evenepoel is taken out by being fat again.

 

[Divergence]

On the other hand, there have been people like Newton, Euler, Gauss, to name a few mathematicians, who were so much more prolific than any of their contemporary that it boggles the mind. So, it could just be work ethic and monstrous genetics. Otherwise, he would tell, at least Urska, what to do to win a race.

 

[Red Rick]

Yes, we're now comparing 2024 professional athletes to scientists from centuries ago.

Truly the HAHAHAHA era

 

[Divergence]

Yes, we're now comparing 2024 professional athletes to scientists from centuries ago.

Truly the HAHAHAHA era

I am trying to indicate that it is possible for a human to be so much better than everybody else in any endeavor.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I'd have no problem with this analysis, except I really can't understand how he is so above the rest. If you take the past as an example, the differences between the top tier riders never reached such disproportions. And he is doing it in practically every kind of race imaginable. Even Merckx could meet his match in the mountains against Ocana, who was simply a superior climber, or Hinault who could be beaten even when in fine form. Not Pogacar, who has reached a superiority that goes against everything we know about modern cycling. For the past three decades specialization took over, with it thought impossible to win classics, GTs and Worlds by one rider, let alone in the same season. He breaks Pantani's record by 3'40", then goes on a 100 km break to win solo at Worlds. Nothing makes sense anymore. Contador was doing "Pantani-like" things with a TT ability that verged on a real specialist until Clengate, but he was nowhere in the classics or Worlds. Froome was a dominant force in the GTs and spring stage reaces, but similarly was a non-entity in the one-day races. You have to go back to the 80s to have all-rounders, when the doping was much less effective and sophisticated, when you had a select group of riders (Hinault, Fignon, Lemond, Roche, Delgado, Kelly), some of which were less versitile, who had a tight competition amongst themselves. Because, although the talent was great, no margin of difference was as large as what we saw from Tadej this year against his rivals. In an era in which the science of performance science has reach extremely high levels, you wouldn't expect one rider to be so dominant, unless he is ahead in the arms race (chemical or mechanical), because I don't believe there should be such a difference in talent between the top five-six riders as we are presently witnessing. In my opinion, after the spring, then Giro-Tour-Worlds he should be tired, but that is clearly not the case and it's not normal. He'd have to be truely that much more talented to the other big talents of this era, than has ever been reached between the best riders in the past.

This. I came to this thread just pointing there is something about Pogacar's physiological ability (unless he is using a motor) truly remarkable and other guys just scream with rage "Doper, biggest cheater ever, he makes LA a good boy, etc". This adds nothing to the thread, just generates conflicts. The Clinic used to have guys with very interesting content (Hitch for example). Now, there is some competition to see who screams louder "Doper, Fraud, etc".
Of course Pogacar is doping, I said many times there is no clean athlete in High performance sports, specially individual sports where physical capacity is essential. But what explains this difference between Pogacar and the rest? This should be the conversation and if you think a little bit, this difference in performance can't be explained only by a better program because histoy already showed us LA (for example) wasn't so MUCH better than his rivals like Pogacar is.

 

[Forever The Best]

Only 'defense' is probably that he wasn't that great in the Giro and that in these specific races Roglic is taken out by the attrition and weather and Evenepoel is taken out by being fat again.

Pogacar likely used Giro as training looking at W/Kg at Giro and Tour, despite breaking the Monte Grappa record.
New era of cycling, just dominating Giro as a warm-up, none of that tiredness or getting into shape.

 

[Divergence]

Pogacar likely used Giro as training looking at W/Kg at Giro and Tour, despite breaking the Monte Grappa record.
New era of cycling, just dominating Giro as a warm-up, none of that tiredness or getting into shape.

One has to be much better than all of the others in order to use a race like the Giro for preparation and to win it by a ridiculous margin. The question is how is he so much better.

 

[Peyroteo94]

One has to be much better and all of the others in order to use a race like the Giro for preparation and to win it by a ridiculous margin. The question is how is he so much better.

Compared to 99% of the peloton, I will say 1 w/kg in FTP

 

[noob]

Lappartient giving favours "randomly" seems to be one of the possible explanations.

Last year it was Visma. This year it's UAE. Whoever helps his candidacy for IOC laughs the loudest.

 

[Divergence]

Compared to 99% of the peloton, I will say 1 w/kg in FTP

Sure, but I am wondering how, not by how much . It is clear that he is so much better that he can do whatever he wants and still win.

 

[ashhutch1997]

If Pog dominates like this next year, I can see the interest and viewing figures going down. That's what I think will be the breaking point.

 

[Salvarani]

Only 'defense' is probably that he wasn't that great in the Giro and that in these specific races Roglic is taken out by the attrition and weather and Evenepoel is taken out by being fat again.

But its just luck? I thought so.

 

[Salvarani]

If Pog dominates like this next year, I can see the interest and viewing figures going down. That's what I think will be the breaking point.

It will be going up, I reckon.

Cycling is bigger than ever.

Next year WC in Rwanda as well.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Sure, but I am wondering how, not by how much . It is clear that he is so much better that he can do whatever he wants and still win.

I really don't know. I know it can't be just because of doping. Redbull Bora and Visma are not behind UAE.
And this year, his new coach made a huge difference. Other thing important to say is: How was Pogacar the best rider in the world and wasn't even doing a lot of things (in training and nutrition) methodically?

 

[ashhutch1997]

It will be going up, I reckon.

Cycling is bigger than ever.

Next year WC in Rwanda as well.

Not so sure about that, in the UK for example the popularity of the sport has been declining for a few years now. Especially in the ametur racing, numbers are worryingly low especially in the youth races, compared to 10 years ago. I know the cost of living has a lot to do with it of course.
Judging by social media comments, people are already getting fed up with his dominance and predictability.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Mark Hughes' Stoke 2015, of which Bojan was apart of, was the zenith of football, peak brexitball none of this woke sh*t passing it around the back we see nowadays. Before bald frauds and trendy Dutch managers managed to ruin footy for everyone.

That is just a team made up of top club rejects. Give me Pulis' hard men any day of the week.
In fact give me back the UAE team of old, too, with its three big GC stars Aru, Martin and Mirza.

 

[Extinction]

This. I came to this thread just pointing there is something about Pogacar's physiological ability (unless he is using a motor) truly remarkable and other guys just scream with rage "Doper, biggest cheater ever, he makes LA a good boy, etc". This adds nothing to the thread, just generates conflicts. The Clinic used to have guys with very interesting content (Hitch for example). Now, there is some competition to see who screams louder "Doper, Fraud, etc".
Of course Pogacar is doping, I said many times there is no clean athlete in High performance sports, specially individual sports where physical capacity is essential. But what explains this difference between Pogacar and the rest? This should be the conversation and if you think a little bit, this difference in performance can't be explained only by a better program because histoy already showed us LA (for example) wasn't so MUCH better than his rivals like Pogacar is.

Now let's take a look at his 21 & 22 seasons. He could be dropped, albiet temporarily, on the Ventoux and have sub-par showings in the Worlds ITT and RR. In 22 he could have the fight taken to him throughout the Tour and blow on the Glandon. Last year there was the obvious setback, but he really got crushed on two occassions in the Tour. By contrast, this year he upped his game to a degree that begs to ask the 64,000 dollar question. What has changed in his preparation? Laughably, he said it was down to the nutrition (poridge for breakfast) and more training above zone 2, as if in 2019-2023 his nutrition and training were all wrong, to be rethought to improve this much. Considering doping as a given, what changed there, because clearly the program he was previously on did not provide this current level, a level he has maintained from March to October. Again he had drops of form in the past, so presumably UAE modified his program to eliminate them, to create a Frankenstein on two wheels. They must have found the magic potion, because it can't be explained away by talent. He doubtless is very talented, but until this year he showed vulnerability, whereas this year he did not. Now given talent is a constant, one can only conclude that the doping improved (or a motor, as has been suggested). True, he was leaner this year, which may account for greater efficiency, but it should also take its tole on resistence in terms of remaining in top shape over the entire season. It used to be that a rider, in the age of modern performance science, could only reach a really low weight and maintain incredible form for a single period, whereas Pog has done it for an entire season. It defies everything we know thus far. With UAE funding and the Gianetti-Maxtin masterminding, I think they have just gotten ahead.

 

[Salvarani]

Not so sure about that, in the UK for example the popularity of the sport has been declining for a few years now. Especially in the ametur racing, numbers are worryingly low especially in the youth races, compared to 10 years ago. I know the cost of living has a lot to do with it of course.
Judging by social media comments, people are already getting fed up with his dominance and predictability.

The world is bigger than the UK, and of course the interest there may have gone after reaching its peak with Olympics and benefits after that with the whole Sky era. Then now with the decline of Ineos and people within it doing different things now. Riders like Froome, Thomas and Cavendish all getting older. They need more investment and they will be on an upwards tradjectory again. It is a cycle.

That may be what you see on your feed but that doesnt mean it is telling the whole story. Our feeds tend to align with what we think or like, so we only see more of it it. Dangerous world.

 

[ashhutch1997]

The world is bigger than the UK, and of course the interest there may have gone after reaching its peak with Olympics and benefits after that with the whole Sky era. Then now with the decline of Ineos and people within it doing different things now. Riders like Froome, Thomas and Cavendish all getting older. They need more investment and they will be on an upwards tradjectory again. It is a cycle.

That may be what you see on your feed but that doesnt mean it is telling the whole story. Our feeds tend to align with what we think or like, so we only see more of it it. Dangerous world.

I understand what your saying, but I disagree respectably.
The world is bigger than the UK, but it generates a lot more money and support if countries like the UK or USA are more invested in cycling. The Armstrong years brought in so much popularity and money into the sport that was never seen.
Also regarding the world championships being in Rwanda, the world's have been in left field countries before, like Colombia 1995.

 

[Salvarani]

That is just a team made up of top club rejects. Give me Pulis' hard men any day of the week.
In fact give me back the UAE team of old, too, with its three big GC stars Aru, Martin and Mirza.

Brought them to the FA-Cup final!