Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ripper]

You know, whenever there's a new talented rider hitting the scene I'm excited. I remember being very excited when Pog had his breakthrough.
But at a certain point, there's a crossroads. When performances cross a certain threshold (which understandibly is different for each of us), you either continue to support him, or you start asking some questions. Now I'm already wayyy beyond that point. But even if I weren't, I certainly wouldnt be posting in his thread dozens of times a day, repeating over and over how great and almighty he is. It's almost as if people feel the need to shout their praises louder and louder just to supress their own doubts. It's like putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "GOAT GOAT GOAT!".

Ugh. I'm just glad the season is over. And I'll be honest: I'm not particularly looking forward to 2025 either. But I've been at it this long, I'll probably be watching again anyway.

I hear you.

I do find the repeated comments that are some variety of "we just need to bask in his greatness and enjoy what a wonderful time it is to be alive and watching this" to be, how should I say, a bit odd. I mean, I'm actually pretty happy most of the time, and I don't need professional bike racing to make me happy to be alive or not. And there are other aspects I enjoy about bike racing other than watching who wins. But I do find it perplexing that people want more of this, because of the implications.

On a slightly separate note, it was a very entertaining acceleration he had. I remember when Horner and others would lay down some incredible attacks and just obliterate the group I was in, and that was nothing compared to pogster level attacks.

 

[solo80k]

Yea, I noticed that about his physique. He doesn't look freakishly thin as many pro cyclists do. He looks like a relatively thin man with defined muscles.

I mean the difference between two seasons is astonishing. Last time I have seen such incredible transformations in short period was many years ago - with certain UFC fighters like Vitor Belfort using Testosterone Replacement Therapy as legally allowed procedure.

 

[TrekCyclist]

If it really was an electrical motor in his bike - it should be possible to find out.
Get some guys with good IR cameras on the climbs. Or to make a PhD project out of this, electrical or machanical engineering. Let some grad student optimize an IR camera for exactely that purpose.
Or at some point someone will simply get hands on on of the bikes. However he is doing that.

 

[fenns]

I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to riders like Pogacar who have a rounded programme throughout the year - riding in the one-day races - rather then spending long periods out of competition. I feel this is something that the most suspect riders (Ving, Indurain etc) do not do - and Armstrong of course,

 

[peterfin]

I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to riders like Pogacar who have a rounded programme throughout the year - riding in the one-day races - rather then spending long periods out of competition. I feel this is something that the most suspect riders (Ving, Indurain etc) do not do - and Armstrong of course,

If physical limits were respected the benefit of the doubt could still be there. For somebody who is riding all year you would also expect that peaking is a bit more difficult vs his competitors but apparantly he is always at his peak.

 

[fenns]

If physical limits were respected the benefit of the doubt could still be there. For somebody who is riding all year you would also expect that peaking is a bit more difficult vs his competitors but apparantly he is always at his peak.

I guess in this case it's more likely to be mechanical than chemical as there would be no need to spend long periods out of competition.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He is the best at everything. Doping, Talent, Panache, Charisma, Show and that's why he is the GOAT. Wasn't Merckx caught 3 times on a positive anti doping test? And he is still recognized by some people as the best ever.

 

[Red Rick]

I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to riders like Pogacar who have a rounded programme throughout the year - riding in the one-day races - rather then spending long periods out of competition. I feel this is something that the most suspect riders (Ving, Indurain etc) do not do - and Armstrong of course,

Vingegaard who was flying all year last year?

Also, are we literally assuming doping patterns haven't changed in 30 years?

 

[hrotha]

He is the best at everything. Doping, Talent, Panache, Charisma, Show and that's why he is the GOAT. Wasn't Merckx caught 3 times on a positive anti doping test? And he is still recognized by some people as the best ever.

If you think it doesn't matter, fair enough. But if you think it doesn't matter, why post here in the first place?

 

[Peyroteo94]

If you think it doesn't matter, fair enough. But if you think it doesn't matter, why post here in the first place?

Because the Clinic was made to spread knowledge and discuss respectfully about PED's, trying to find some answers to alien performances and how are they riding so fast (in this case Pogacar). But now, it's just a competition to see who screams louder "Doper", at least in this thread. Why are you questioning the reason I am here? Why are you not asking the same to those 2 or 3 haters who don't add nothing to this thread? (no talk about new PEDs, Pogacar's physiological ability and he improved so fast). Every race they are here saying "Doper, rides for dirty Matxin/Gianneti" I have every right to be here, this is not the Pogacar's Depreciation Thread but it seems sometimes.
Edit: you are here since 2010. Can you not see the difference between users like The Hitch and those who write here? The difference in knowledge, new information, medical content, etc?

 

[Peyroteo94]

@hrotha we could talk here about EPO gene, carbon monoxide inhaler, microdosing, etc. But no, here they just talk about dirty he is and that's it. No content at all. The clinic is no longer the best place to learn about sports medicine and how to increase performance.
But somehow I think I don't belong here, can't read all this nonsense and can't accept what the clinic has become.
Cheers, I will go back to road racing.

 

[hrotha]

Why are you not asking the same to those 2 or 3 haters who don't add nothing to this thread? (no talk about new PEDs, Pogacar's physiological ability and he improved so fast). Every race they are here saying "Doper, rides for dirty Matxin/Gianneti" I have every right to be here, this is not the Pogacar's Depreciation Thread but it seems sometimes.
Edit: you are here since 2010. Can you not see the difference between users like The Hitch and those who write here? The difference in knowledge, new information, medical content, etc?

My dude that is literally all I've been posting about for like a week. I just don't think you're any better than them

 

[Luthor]

Pog is just taking the piss at this point. It's ridiculous blatant but as long as UCI gets paid by UAE, all it's good. This sport is in shambles and watching it lately has been atrocious. Vuelta felt like a competition for normal people, thank god we at least got that.

 

[Froome]

Pog is just taking the piss at this point. It's ridiculous blatant but as long as UCI gets paid by UAE, all it's good. This sport is in shambles and watching it lately has been atrocious. Vuelta felt like a competition for normal people, thank god we at least got that.

Nevertheless, if the situation continues like this, the fans who watch cycling will start to be mad and lose interest in seeing cycling, the sponsors and organisations will start to lose money because of that. It's not that interesting for them, to see something like this, year after year. People will turn on this.

The best thing can happen for UAE and Pogacar, is , Bora, Quick step and Visma, be able to have at least a similar doping programm, to close the gap, and then things again be more similar like 2022 and 2023, where the races are won by more riders and not just one, because on that case the focus will not be just on UAE and Pogacar, and the fans will not turn so easily in seeing cycling, since is not always the same, winning races.

The problem is that i don't think this evolution year after year is sustainable, and one day, the bomb will drop, like in the past.

 

[Rackham]

He is the best at everything. Doping, Talent, Panache, Charisma, Show and that's why he is the GOAT. Wasn't Merckx caught 3 times on a positive anti doping test? And he is still recognized by some people as the best ever.

Merckx hasn't been a serious conversation for a long time. He's been cycling folklore for 3 decades... not an actual serious reference point. It's only in recent years with the advent of the super 'talents' Pog and Evenepoel - along with new fans to the sport and old codgers in the media who're using this as an opportunity to dust of their "trip down memory lane" archives sans references to doping of course - that we're now getting serious comparisons between this era and the Merckx era. But you know what? I say bollox to the lot of them.

Cycling is paying the price for not cleaning up properly after the Armstrong affair, aka making one dude take the fall for everyone. It's the absurdity of absurdities to actually praise Merckx.. after L.A. lost his seven titles. But it's not only Merckx, is it? We saw in the recent Giro how the Giro organizers and Eurosport eulogized Marco freaking Pantani.

So the message is clear: good guys who're chummy with the media and smile for the cameras... can dope their brains out. L.A. was a cr*p human being, after all, and that's a prerequisite when it comes to punishing baddies, right?

So we can expect this modern farcical era of cycling to continue.. for quite a while... considering how totally compromised the entire edifice is.

 

[Raest]

Because the Clinic was made to spread knowledge and discuss respectfully about PED's, trying to find some answers to alien performances and how are they riding so fast (in this case Pogacar). But now, it's just a competition to see who screams louder "Doper", at least in this thread. Why are you questioning the reason I am here? Why are you not asking the same to those 2 or 3 haters who don't add nothing to this thread? (no talk about new PEDs, Pogacar's physiological ability and he improved so fast). Every race they are here saying "Doper, rides for dirty Matxin/Gianneti" I have every right to be here, this is not the Pogacar's Depreciation Thread but it seems sometimes.
Edit: you are here since 2010. Can you not see the difference between users like The Hitch and those who write here? The difference in knowledge, new information, medical content, etc?

My dude that is literally all I've been posting about for like a week. I just don't think you're any better than them

Respectfully this is highly disingenuous particularly from you @Peyroteo94 . Every question you have raised has been answered. There have been many well thought out and detalied posts explaining why Pog's performances this year strongly indicate some form of doping be it blood, or motor. And your best argument to the contrary was that Phil Heath won 7 Mr Olympia's. That's it. You, and a few others, can't explain how he was able to outperform Pantani, how he was able to maintain peak form throughout an 8-month season, without using illicit means, so resorted either to silly analogies or to disputing the evidence presented to your or the methodology used to obtain them, despite said methodologies having been repeatedly validated. The fact that you refused the engage with any of the arguments made does not mean that "knowledge" was not shared. You just chose to ignore it as it didn't suit your world view.
As for @hrotha, yes I agree with you that there have been many one-liner posts and many posts of frustration or venting. But it's exactly the same in every thread. You don't read 500 word diatribes in the professional cycling posts on tactics do you? So I don't exactly get why you've been so negative about this topic. The Clinic it's the only place where mention of doping is allowed so naturally people will vent. Much like people express their admiration or awe in other topics. In one or two-liners. Are you as peeved by those posts as well?
Sometimes the only thing someone can say is "WTF"... Why shouldn't they be able to?

 

[vwpe]

yet you have no problem watching Jonas win, interesting

Reading this thread and posts at the moment, lets be real 80% of it is just people beeing salty and mad cause Pogacar beats everyone by a landslide and is so much better than everyone thats it, at least thats what I get from most of this this vs that nonsense going on not all though. Rarely productive post of substance or objectivity at least.

 

[Peyroteo94]

My dude that is literally all I've been posting about for like a week. I just don't think you're any better than them

You're right.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Reading this thread and posts at the moment, lets be real 80% of it is just people beeing salty and mad cause Pogacar beats everyone by a landslide and is so much better than everyone thats it, at least thats what I get from most of this this vs that nonsense going on not all though. Rarely productive post of substance or objectivity at least.

This is how I feel reading this thread

 

[Rackham]

This is how I feel reading this thread

Nah. I don't see how anyone can be 'salty'... because there's no fight. There's no rivalry. It's just annihilation. I mean maybe just maybe under a certain set of conditions Vingegaard can challenge Pog in the Tour and VdP can challenge Pog in some monuments... but let's be real here, this guy is in his own little world.

Pog 2024 demolishes Pog 2023. The jump in his level.. has been extraordinary. His win in Lombardia yesterday made his performance last year look human. That's why we need to be careful throwing names like Vingegaard around in these convos now as well... because based on what we've seen this year there's absolutely no guarantee Vingegaard will ever challenge Pog again in France. Pog is that good.

FYI Vingegaard cannot complain either, not after that sh*t he pulled in Combloux. But... yeah, it's a brave new world of cycling now in which Pog is head & shoulders above everyone else - all year long.

 

[Casual cyclist]

I guess in this case it's more likely to be mechanical than chemical as there would be no need to spend long periods out of competition.

Exactly. Everything, and I mean everything about this Pog fellow's performances, especially this year, points to this very conclusion. Indeed, doing what looks like 500+ watts for long periods while looking relaxed, chatting with cameramen, goofily smiling, not sweating, i.e. behaving like someone who is doing 250W tops. And for the whole season with no breaks, to boot, as you noted. Biological engines simply do not work that way, whether chemically enhanced or not.

 

[AmRacer]

Exactly. Everything, and I mean everything about this Pog fellow's performances, especially this year, points to this very conclusion. Indeed, doing what looks like 500+ watts for long periods while looking relaxed, chatting with cameramen, goofily smiling, not sweating, i.e. behaving like someone who is doing 250W tops. And for the whole season with no breaks, to boot, as you noted. Biological engines simply do not work that way, whether chemically enhanced or not.

He had a long break after the Tour.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Nah. I don't see how anyone can be 'salty'... because there's no fight. There's no rivalry. It's just annihilation. I mean maybe just maybe under a certain set of conditions Vingegaard can challenge Pog in the Tour and VdP can challenge Pog in some monuments... but let's be real here, this guy is in his own little world.

Pog 2024 demolishes Pog 2023. The jump in his level.. has been extraordinary. His win in Lombardia yesterday made his performance last year look human. That's why we need to be careful throwing names like Vingegaard around in these convos now as well... because based on what we've seen this year there's absolutely no guarantee Vingegaard will ever challenge Pog again in France. Pog is that good.

FYI Vingegaard cannot complain either, not after that sh*t he pulled in Combloux. But... yeah, it's a brave new world of cycling now in which Pog is head & shoulders above everyone else - all year long.

At the Tour at least we knew that Vingo had subpar preparation so it would've been closer otherwise. But those recent races...absolute annihilation and yesterday was the scariest of all. After casually doing 6.8 w/kg on the climb Pogi has more in store and comfortably cruises at 400+ watts on flat/hilly terrain while Remco and co are dying behind. It is like only a crash can beat Teddy. Looking from perspective his WC attack was really risky and stupid - he would've crushed the rest with an attack 2 laps to go but it almost seems like he wanted a bigger challenge.

As for the next year I believe Visma-LAB will challenge Pog at the Tour. They were strong in preparation this year but very unlucky (with Vingo but also with Wout). It will be the clash of the mutants for ages, if they avoid crashes OFC. Pog, as the current Tour champion, will be #1 fave though. Other than Vingo at the Tour it's possible that none will be able to challenge Pog elsewhere (unless he decides for PR).

 

[Raest]

He had a long break after the Tour.

So did Evenpoel though. And yes one could argue that Pogacar did a better job of mainting form than Evenpoel but the problem is that Evenpoel's drop in form is the norm. The peak-form period, in any sport, lasts a short period of time and cannot achieved multiple times a year. And this is true for aerobic and anaerobic-based sports. To use an analogy from sprinting, Bolt wasn't running 9.6s throughout the track season.
The conventional wisdom was that a good spring (in cycling) would mean a bad Tour but possibly a better Vuelta or Worlds, a good Tour mediocre Worlds etc.
Pog has garbaged this conventional wisdom as he's been in ridiculous form since March pretty much. That's another novelty, that goes against most of what is known about training and preparation.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pog has garbaged this conventional wisdom as he's been in ridiculous form since March pretty much. That's another novelty, that goes against most of what is known about training and preparation.

TBH Pog has been in ridiculous form since the Tour (but had a long break after it). As for the first part of the year...his form was ridiculous by his competitors standards but pretty average but his 2024 standards.