Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[cnort]

The multi-terrain ability is less worrying to me than the constant on-form status...

On reflection - of you look at the best seasons of riders like Merckx, Maertens and Kelly - they were winning every month of the season, with maybe a three or four week spell out of racing in there somewhere. Maybe we need to take into account that our illustrious Tadej has fewer race days - his palmares give the impression of a higher win rate but is by being more targeted.

None of this helps with the question of whether he rides clean or not, but more to emphasize that his exploits are not unprecedented in cycling - albeit you have look back a bit further in time. Of course, saying he sits comfortably at the high table has connotations of how that is achieved...

 

[Stablo]

Started to think about the Finestre record from Pablo Torres on Tour de l'Avenir last year. The best climb performance by a teenager ever, beating the time of champions like Froome&Contador and quite clearly. Not sure what Pablo's best performance was before that, but since then he has not been even close to that level. Actually this season has been quite bad considering the expectations.

Then to the main point that i started to think.
It really seems like UAE has some sort of super juice or motor that can significally boost your performance and Torres got it on that stage, because the day before was bad for him. The big bosses surely weren't there at Tour de l'Avenir and maybe they weren't allowed to do what they did there. That climb brought Torres/UAE a lot of, propably unwanted attention, cause Poggies season had already started to lift eyebrows. Whatever they did use that day, Torres is not allowed to use anymore hence a lot lower level ever since.
So imho the thing that made the major leap on Pablo's level, is the same juice/motor our main man is using around the year and produces the miraculous seated fresh as a daisy performances.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

On reflection - of you look at the best seasons of riders like Merckx, Maertens and Kelly - they were winning every month of the season, with maybe a three or four week spell out of racing in there somewhere. Maybe we need to take into account that our illustrious Tadej has fewer race days - his palmares give the impression of a higher win rate but is by being more targeted.

None of this helps with the question of whether he rides clean or not, but more to emphasize that his exploits are not unprecedented in cycling - albeit you have look back a bit further in time. Of course, saying he sits comfortably at the high table has connotations of how that is achieved...

That was against the same (nearly exclusively western European) peloton all season. There was no specialization.

 

[cnort]

I see David Walsh has a full page article in The Sunday Times today [behind a paywall], titled "I don't judge Pogacar by past of his boss - but seeing them together makes me wince". It's mostly an overview of Gianetti's murky past (PFC case, Mayo, Ricco, Piepoli, Cobo), leading onto managing Pogacar. For me the telling quote is:

"The more important question, though, is whether Gianetti's presence lessens our trust in Pogacar? I don't believe it should. Certainly for me it doesn't. Pogacar should be judged on what he does."

Yes and no. I suspect that Walsh is no longer interested in doping in cycling. Chasing Armstrong gave him a couple of books and a movie, and he moved on, got pally with Froome, and writes articles on a variety of sports.

It's disappointing in one way, but equally, the only muck thrown at Pogacar that sticks are the bits clinging to his support team. If that is a good measure, then we could not trust any rider. I'd prefer if Walsh had left it open, as in, it's not a good look...

 

[Netserk]

It's a classic apophasis. The point is to talk about Gianetti's background, not the superficial denial of its import.

 

[dr.eve]

Saying it shouldn't lessen our trust in Pogacar is rather naive... imagine Armstrong being the head of a WT team with the highest performing cyclist as teammember. Nah of course that would not lessen our trust.🤣

 

[Stablo]

Saying it shouldn't lessen our trust in Pogacar is rather naive... imagine Armstrong being the head of a WT team with the highest performing cyclist as teammember. Nah of course that would not lessen our trust.🤣

This exactly, that's incredibly naive. Why on earth shouldn't it lessen our trust in Poggie, keeping in mind what he has been doing for some years now. And yes most of the teams have personel with shady past ik their ranks, but unless Bruyneel makes a comeback, imho none of them are close to Gianetti&Matxin duo. Combine that with the stuff Poggie is pulling of around the year and yes Gianetti(UAE) behind it sure as hell lessens my trust.

 

[cnort]

This exactly, that's incredibly naive. Why on earth shouldn't it lessen our trust in Poggie, keeping in mind what he has been doing for some years now.

Yes, which is why it is disappointing that David Walsh is the one expressing this sentiment. Arguing that the management of all teams have shady paths is a bit disingenuous, because some have fessed up and spoken about their past (not many, I admit), and some may actually have been clean when they rode (again not many, I admit).

Either way, even if all teams had management with doping pasts, that would not be a basis for assuming that current riders must all be clean. With his track record, surely Walsh would raise an eyebrow at Pogacar's performances and think "here we go again"?

 

[dr.eve]

Yes, which is why it is disappointing that David Walsh is the one expressing this sentiment. Arguing that the management of all teams have shady paths is a bit disingenuous, because some have fessed up and spoken about their past (not many, I admit), and some may actually have been clean when they rode (again not many, I admit).

Either way, even if all teams had management with doping pasts, that would not be a basis for assuming that current riders must all be clean. With his track record, surely Walsh would raise an eyebrow at Pogacar's performances and think "here we go again"?

Teams with people with a bad past I would also trust less. But of course some may be more shady then others. I understand people trust a team less with Armstrong as head than let's say Michael Boogerd. But Gianetti was not just a rider of "oh i doped once, didnt know anything else and i am sorry", no he's a doper willing to silence people who would expose his lie and manage teams with proven big dopers. That uh should not earn trust while heading up UAE.

And people here saying questions should have been asked years ago so now we can't... that's also utterly naive. Just because some people didnt ask those questions years ago, or if they did and Pogacar just makes some simple not meaningful reply, does not mean we should not ask these questions, or that people that didnt do so before cant now.

I really fail to understand why there are types that we do not accept in the peloton anymore but do accept some like Giannetti. Again he did quite the works when it comes to doping and related schemes.

But this is the problem of how the community/organisations/governing bodies have managed it. Stripping Armstrong of wins but not Ullrich, Riis, Pantani and so on makes no sense. Now they have created degrees of dopers. Armstrong was a doper and evil guy so we punish him but another was a doper but a less evil guy so we punish him less. How do you manage that?

 

[Extinction]

Teams with people with a bad past I would also trust less. But of course some may be more shady then others. I understand people trust a team less with Armstrong as head than let's say Michael Boogerd. But Gianetti was not just a rider of "oh i doped once, didnt know anything else and i am sorry", no he's a doper willing to silence people who would expose his lie and manage teams with proven big dopers. That uh should not earn trust while heading up UAE.

And people here saying questions should have been asked years ago so now we can't... that's also utterly naive. Just because some people didnt ask those questions years ago, or if they did and Pogacar just makes some simple not meaningful reply, does not mean we should not ask these questions, or that people that didnt do so before cant now.

I really fail to understand why there are types that we do not accept in the peloton anymore but do accept some like Giannetti. Again he did quite the works when it comes to doping and related schemes.

But this is the problem of how the community/organisations/governing bodies have managed it. Stripping Armstrong of wins but not Ullrich, Riis, Pantani and so on makes no sense. Now they have created degrees of dopers. Armstrong was a doper and evil guy so we punish him but another was a doper but a less evil guy so we punish him less. How do you manage that?

Armstrong was taken down by a teammate. Otherwise he'd have walked clean. It's not about doping, but the economy of power. When a doped rider is conceded power, because of the economic/commercial interests, it's called mafia. Tadej has been granted this by virtue of his petrol suppliers per investing in the sport.

 

[noob]

I remember Del Toro was mentioned here during one of his youth race, but now I can't remember which one. Only that his numbers were extreme.

 

[Netserk]

I remember Del Toro was mentioned here during one of his youth race, but now I can't remember which one. Only that his numbers were extreme.

Here?

The 19 year old Mexican Isaac del Toro who finished 11th on Balea Lac yesterday looks like someone to keep an eye on. Already 10th on the gc in the u23 Course the la Paix this year and a few top 10 results in hilly Italian one day races.

Darren Rafferty (Hagens Berman Axeon) wins the Giro Valle d’Aosta ahead of Alexy Faure Prost (Circus Reuz). Interestingly the guy in third was a Mexican, Isaac del Toro.

I don’t know if the rumours about Rafferty going to EF were accurate, but either way the kid is definitely not going to be hanging around the espoirs next year.

 

[Tim Cahill]

I remember Del Toro was mentioned here during one of his youth race, but now I can't remember which one. Only that his numbers were extreme.

That reminds me, this is what some of the UAE guys were rumoured to be taking by the way, microdosing GW1516;

Interesting, theres a story about an individual who knew of Del Toro going to UAE before anyone else being found on reddit asking for methods to evade GW1516 positives, the posts were quickly deleted when someone noticed.

I'm trying to find the original reddit thread but all the posts are deleted now, here is a mention of it

https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2zcqo5

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2zcqo5/

https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2z3hzg

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2z3hzg/

 

[noob]

That reminds me, this is what some of the UAE guys were rumoured to be taking by the way, microdosing GW1516;

I'm trying to find the original reddit thread but all the posts are deleted now, here is a mention of it

https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2zcqo5

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2zcqo5/

https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2z3hzg

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2z3hzg/

OMG I had forgotten this!

Here?

I think it was another post or maybe I had mixed it up with the one @Tim Cahill just quoted.

 

[noob]

One of the comments:

Is this the lad with the teammate suspected of being a Reddit user who was found to be posting/commenting about EPO usage and test circumvention lol?

The comment is listed as deleted but I could see and copy it.

The insanity if 17-18 years old guys asking about how to avoid testing positive for such a dangerous drug 😑

 

[Cookster15]

I know it was discussed here years ago (Sky / Froome era?) but how does GW1516 work?

 

[Cookster15]

Tadej has been granted this by virtue of his petrol suppliers per investing in the sport

This has been brought up many times here but that doesn't mean it makes sense. It is far from clear what the commercial ROI to the Middle East oil industry is for facilitating a doping advantage in a 2nd tier global sport like cycling via an Eastern European like Pogacar.

 

[Extinction]

This has been brought up many times here but that doesn't mean it makes sense. It is far from clear what the commercial ROI to the Middle East oil industry is for facilitating a doping advantage in a 2nd tier global sport like cycling via an Eastern European like Pogacar.

Easy the sport needs the money, UAE has tons of it at its disposal, hence the UCI has no incentive to see team riders, let alone Pogacar, found positive or with modifiedsh bicycles. It would do lethal damage. But we know an outfit run by Giannetti and Maxtin can't be clean. In exchange UAE gets a sportswashing polish to its image.

 

[noob]

Don't know if this has been posted before, pardon if it has, but thought this was worth reading: https://escapecollective.com/the-curious-case-of-mauro-gianettis-disappearing-doping-incident/

Much of it behind a paywall. I figured I'd support independent cycling journalism and give them $11 for a month. Looks like a promising bit of content at Escape Collective. Maybe not news to many or all of ya, but I'd never heard of 'em.

Here's the evidence: draw your own conclusions.

Seems a stretch to make a paid-for article out of it.

Interesting, theres a story about an individual who knew of Del Toro going to UAE before anyone else being found on reddit asking for methods to evade GW1516 positives, the posts were quickly deleted when someone noticed.

That reminds me, this is what some of the UAE guys were rumoured to be taking by the way, microdosing GW1516;

I'm trying to find the original reddit thread but all the posts are deleted now, here is a mention of it

https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2zcqo5

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2zcqo5/

https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2z3hzg

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2z3hzg/

One of the reddit comments repeated here.
"Is this the lad with the teammate suspected of being a Reddit user who was found to be posting/commenting about EPO usage and test circumvention lol?"

Honestly I find this rather disconcerting.

I remember 2020/21 one of my Eurosport commentators lamented about how there were so many ex dopers running teams and how they shouldn't be allowed in the sport. He was rather angry about it. He has never said something as sharp again after that.

Btw the way this thread is used it's not just about Pog, but rather how Gianetti with his past shapes both UAE and the sport in general.

So maybe it should be called something like Gianetti - it's not just about Pogacar. Because it really isn't, he is (so far) just the Gianetti boy that has gotten the most lucky.

 

[Extinction]

Don't know if this has been posted before, pardon if it has, but thought this was worth reading: https://escapecollective.com/the-curious-case-of-mauro-gianettis-disappearing-doping-incident/

Much of it behind a paywall. I figured I'd support independent cycling journalism and give them $11 for a month. Looks like a promising bit of content at Escape Collective. Maybe not news to many or all of ya, but I'd never heard of 'em.

I love it when they talk of the sport's "dark past," as if it isn't present.

 

[Mayomaniac]

That reminds me, this is what some of the UAE guys were rumoured to be taking by the way, microdosing GW1516;

I'm trying to find the original reddit thread but all the posts are deleted now, here is a mention of it

https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2zcqo5

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2zcqo5/

https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2z3hzg

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/16wv7a1/comment/k2z3hzg/

Wait, can you actually microdose GW1516, doesn't that stuff have 4-5 week glowing period if you take a normal dose?

 

[Tim Cahill]

Wait, can you actually microdose GW1516, doesn't that stuff have 4-5 week glowing period if you take a normal dose?

This is the main thing I've been wondering about since Simona Halep got done for Roxadustat. She must've known how easily detectible that stuff is, so what exactly was she doing? You're right that it has a long half-life, I thought the same thing, that micro dosing is impossible, but surely they must know that, and if they do, why have a laundry list of (some high-profile) people been busted for it.

GW501516 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't think these guys are doing stuff we haven't heard about, it's just that there is so much readily-available new gear around since the 90s that doping has evolved in a similar manner to aerodynamics. It's not really what they're doing more how they are evading the testing that I think is interesting. There must be some sort of masking agent, I think about Michel Hessmann, what he was taking must've been more incriminating than the diuretic itself, otherwise why just tank what would be a guaranteed positive on the chin. If Visma really thought he was done by contamination, why are they letting such a promising young talent go?

I know loads of people who take Cardarine (GW1516), anabolics, peptides etc. are decriminalised in England and you can buy it online. Because it's not actually a SARM you can properly stack it, usually with RAD140 or Osta, and it gives you a third lung. A friend of mine says he has to tell himself to stop working out because he can just go for hours at proper Mike Mentzer intensity without feeling tired. There are a ridiculous amount of drugs out there and easily available that these guys can take to achieve effects similar to blood doping without spiking the OFF-score.

 

[Mayomaniac]

This is the main thing I've been wondering about since Simona Halep got done for Roxadustat. She must've known how easily detectible that stuff is, so what exactly was she doing? You're right that it has a long half-life, I though the same thing, that micro dosing is impossible, but surely they must know that, and if they do, why have a laundry list of (some high-profile) people been busted for it.

GW501516 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't think these guys are doing stuff we haven't heard about, it's just that there is so much readily-available new gear around since the 90s that doping has evolved in a similar manner to aerodynamics. It's not really what they're doing more how they are evading the testing that I think is interesting. There must be some sort of masking agent, I think about Michel Hessmann, what he was taking must've been more incriminating than the diuretic itself, otherwise why just tank what would be a guaranteed positive on the chin. If Visma really thought he was done by contamination, why are they letting such a promising young talent go?

I know loads of people who take Cardarine (GW1516), anabolics, peptides etc. are decriminalised in England and you can buy it online. Because it's not actually a SARM you can properly stack it, usually with RAD140 or Osta, and it gives you a third lung. A friend of mine says he has to tell himself to stop working out because he can just go for hours at proper Mike Mentzer intensity without feeling tired. There are a ridiculous amount of drugs out there and easily available that these guys can take to achieve effects similar to blood doping without spiking the OFF-score.

As far as I know there are modified froms of GW1516/similar PPARδ agonists. But I don't know if they test after all that stuff and those types of compounds are pretty much fertilizer for cancer cells in the long run...