Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[SundayRider]

It would be difficult to be growing from a kid to an adult in the 1990s, as Wiggo did, and have an idol/hero from cycling that wasn't an EPO abuser.

Pantani was great, even if he was a doper. He dished it out to Ullrich in 1998 on the Galibier / Les Deuz Alpes, and for the excitement of that single stage, I will be forever grateful to the PED-abusing, class-A drug using cheat.

One of my footballing heroes is Paul Gascoigne. Doesn't mean I'm an alcoholic, kebab abusing wife-beater. Another is Diego Maradonna. Doesn't mean I want Argentina to have sovereignty over Las Malvinas.

I don't think there's a particularly strong "cause/effect" relationship between having a flawed hero and replicating the flaws of said hero, but who knows?

Just because you idolised someone as a kid doesn't mean that they are still going to be a hero to you once you grow up and have more knowledge/understanding. I thought Armstrong as a 13 year old reading his first book.

 

[SundayRider]

It would be difficult to be growing from a kid to an adult in the 1990s, as Wiggo did, and have an idol/hero from cycling that wasn't an EPO abuser.

Pantani was great, even if he was a doper. He dished it out to Ullrich in 1998 on the Galibier / Les Deuz Alpes, and for the excitement of that single stage, I will be forever grateful to the PED-abusing, class-A drug using cheat.

One of my footballing heroes is Paul Gascoigne. Doesn't mean I'm an alcoholic, kebab abusing wife-beater. Another is Diego Maradonna. Doesn't mean I want Argentina to have sovereignty over Las Malvinas.

I don't think there's a particularly strong "cause/effect" relationship between having a flawed hero and replicating the flaws of said hero, but who knows?

So you don't think there is a history repeating itself vicious circle in cycling? My 'hereos' abused x/y/z substance so that doesn't make me so bad to do the same?

 

[horsinabout]

OldCrank. Reminds me of leon7766.

If you want to know what brave Irish journalism looks like then I recommend this film.
Some viewers may find it disturbing?
At the end it gives a tribute to all the investigative journalists throught the world who have been killed doing their job. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronica_Guerin_(film)

On youtube in full http://youtu.be/E50_P4VUN5E

 

[sublimit]

Just because you idolised someone as a kid doesn't mean that they are still going to be a hero to you once you grow up and have more knowledge/understanding. I thought Armstrong as a 13 year old reading his first book.

Indurain always seemed classy unlike Lance, particularly when he was a super dom working for Delgado. Lance who was a peice of **** from the word go so I can see where Sir Wiggins is coming from.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

If you want to know what brave Irish journalism looks like then I recommend this film.
Some viewers may find it disturbing?
At the end it gives a tribute to all the investigative journalists throught the world who have been killed doing their job. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronica_Guerin_(film)

On youtube in full http://youtu.be/E50_P4VUN5E

I like the fields of athenry in the end..diff version from anyone else i think.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

(1) So you don't think there is a history repeating itself vicious circle in cycling? (2) My 'hereos' abused x/y/z substance so that doesn't make me so bad to do the same?

1 - I wouldn't be surprised if Wiggo has been drawn into the darker side of cycling like many before him, so history could well be repeating itself.

2 - You're missing the point here. Many people have flawed heroes and don't replicate their deviant behaviour. Obviously, any rider's doping offences should be assessed on their merits. (*) What said rider's heroes might have done might be an explanation, but can never be a justification.

(*) Except of course where you were forced by evil Lance to earned several hundred thousand a year by doping, in which case, you get a get out of jail (almost) free card.

 

[del1962]

.....................

 

[del1962]

Removed ....

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Just because you idolised someone as a kid doesn't mean that they are still going to be a hero to you once you grow up and have more knowledge/understanding. I thought Armstrong as a 13 year old reading his first book.

True, but equally it doesn't mean you're going to abandon your heroes. You might even ditch one man as a hero whilst keeping another. Hero-status is very subjective/irrational/emotional and analysis of someone's heroes is a complete waste of time in my view. My "heroes" - to the extent I have them (sportsmen who I admire would be a better term) - contain a collection of nutcases, alcoholics, wifebeaters, cheaters, bores etc. and I'm very "loyal" to them. Nothing that Gazzo doing off the field can change my memories of him playing football in his prime. Likewise, I know Maradonna was a blatant, lying cheat in the "Hand of God" incident, but b*gger me, what a player he was.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If you want to know what brave Irish journalism looks like then I recommend this film.

No, I don't give a stuff about journalism bravery.

I loathe people misrepresenting or editing what people have written to suit their own agendas. Like Oldcrank did, truncating Kimmage's paragraph. It's disingenuous and revolting.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Wiggins was friggin just fourteen years old when Pantani 'bursted on the scene' at the 1994 Mortirolo stage, give the guy a break.

However, given Wiggo's love for Indurain that must have been a hard day for him

On a broader scale, who actually can say they haven't supported/enjoyed doped riders in the past? Or, riders who have been outed years later?

I sure as hell cant.

Lets not try to be holier than il Pape.

I know Maradonna was a blatant, lying cheat in the "Hand of God" incident, but b*gger me, what a player he was.

 

[horsinabout]

No, I don't give a stuff about journalism bravery.

I loathe people misrepresenting or editing what people have written to suit their own agendas. Like Oldcrank did, truncating Kimmage's paragraph. It's disingenuous and revolting.

A ho wiggo......steady on. Be nice!

Well it is what Kimmage said and the full version is no better. He may have had his reasons for playing it down. We don't know.

I agree with you that you need, not just the whole quote but the whole article to put it into proper context.

 

[oldcrank]

Well it is what Kimmage said

Yes, my friend, you are 100% correct. It is exactly what Kimmage
said and it needs repeating: "There is nothing to suggest that
Bradley Wiggins achieved yesterdays historic victory through
anything other than talent and hard work." (Kimmage 22/July/
2012, MailOnline)
Of course there will be a few sad souls who will want to spin
or twist the words of Mr. Kimmage, but they are more to be
pitied than scorned.

 

[coinneach]

No, I don't give a stuff about journalism bravery.

I loathe people misrepresenting or editing what people have written to suit their own agendas. Like Oldcrank did, truncating Kimmage's paragraph. It's disingenuous and revolting.

Can you read this post again, and think about what you have done with comments given in interviews (sometimes at the end of stages) by Wiggins.
Methinks there's one standard for posters and another for riders, and that's hypocritical.
BTW, not saying dear wiggo is by any means the worst in this regard, he's probably below average of the usual twister/hater here in the Clinic

 

[heart_attack_man]

Yes, my friend, you are 100% correct. It is exactly what Kimmage
said and it needs repeating: "There is nothing to suggest that
Bradley Wiggins achieved yesterdays historic victory through
anything other than talent and hard work." (Kimmage 22/July/
2012, MailOnline)
Of course there will be a few sad souls who will want to spin
or twist the words of Mr. Kimmage, but they are more to be
pitied than scorned.

I think this is a little bit 'poor-form'. By continuing to take this out of context, you're deluding not just yourself, but trying to mislead others.

The actual quote is this:

Some 86 per cent of Tour de France winners since Tommy Simpson’s death have been tarnished or implicated by doping. There is nothing to suggest that Bradley Wiggins achieved yesterday’s historic victory through anything other than talent and hard work. But at this time of glory, why does Team Sky leave itself open to insinuation by employing Leinders?
Here’s the question again: Was this Tour de France clean? Here’s the tragedy: I don’t know if the public’s answers would have changed since 2006.

You can see when it's in context that it has a different flavour about it and if you don't agree with that, then I pity you.

I can also make a quote out of context if you'd like:

'Team Sky leaves itself open to insinuation by employing Leinders'.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

A ho wiggo......steady on. Be nice!

Well it is what Kimmage said and the full version is no better. He may have had his reasons for playing it down. We don't know.

I suggest you read the whole piece then, enough questions from Kimmage on the sudden silence on doping questions by Wiggo compared to his former stance in 2006-2007 with regards to Landis-Rasmussen-Moreni.

Guess you missed that part?

That puts Wiggo's and Walsh's article last week in place.

The oldcrank is just a troll, that is clear now.

 

[oldcrank]

I can also make a quote out of context if you'd like:
'Team Sky leaves itself open to insinuation by employing Leinders'.

My friend, that often-quoted partial sentence stands on it's own just
as does the much-less-often-quoted sentence that precedes it.
I have no problem with either being quoted, nor should anyone else.

 

[oldcrank]

The oldcrank is just a troll, that is clear now.

I have quoted a respected journalist,
while you have violated forum policy.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Can you read this post again, and think about what you have done with comments given in interviews (sometimes at the end of stages) by Wiggins.
Methinks there's one standard for posters and another for riders, and that's hypocritical.
BTW, not saying dear wiggo is by any means the worst in this regard, he's probably below average of the usual twister/hater here in the Clinic

Show one post of mine, where I have misquoted or truncated what was written to suit my position. Any post. If you find one I will take a month off posting in the forum.

Go.

 

[horsinabout]

I suggest you read the whole piece then, enough questions from Kimmage on the sudden silence on doping questions by Wiggo compared to his former stance in 2006-2007 with regards to Landis-Rasmussen-Moreni.

Guess you missed that part?

That puts Wiggo's and Walsh's article last week in place.

The oldcrank is just a troll, that is clear now.

Well that's OK FGL, best we keep on pointing out all the double standards. And then we may get more articles like this.

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/paul-...gins-attacking-messenger-sky-sports-interview

 

[Benotti69]

Yes, my friend, you are 100% correct. It is exactly what Kimmage
said and it needs repeating: "There is nothing to suggest that
Bradley Wiggins achieved yesterdays historic victory through
anything other than talent and hard work." (Kimmage 22/July/
2012, MailOnline)
Of course there will be a few sad souls who will want to spin
or twist the words of Mr. Kimmage, but they are more to be
pitied than scorned.

Then there are also Kimamge's words,

"I finished 2+ hours down on the 1986 TdF winner and in 2006 Wiggins finished 3+ hours down on the TdF winner, there are some serious questions needing to be answered"

Where did Kimmage utter these words? Bord Gais Energy Theatre 20.04.2013.

 

[badboygolf16v]

Yes, my friend, you are 100% correct. It is exactly what Kimmage
said and it needs repeating: "There is nothing to suggest that
Bradley Wiggins achieved yesterdays historic victory through
anything other than talent and hard work." (Kimmage 22/July/
2012, MailOnline)
Of course there will be a few sad souls who will want to spin
or twist the words of Mr. Kimmage, but they are more to be
pitied than scorned.

Libel suit avoidance FFS.

 

[zalacain]

Yes, like the universally respected investigative journalist
Paul Kimmage wrote in the MailOnline 22 July 2012:
"There is nothing to suggest that Bradley Wiggins achieved
yesterdays historic victory through anything other than
talent and hard work."

who said in the same article
"To be fair, the sport is unquestionably cleaner now than at any other time in its past but it seems a strange irony that the only time Wiggins has looked under pressure in this Tour was when he was asked about doping.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...-drug-demons--Paul-Kimmage.html#ixzz2SFnW7fRc
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Freddythefrog]

A Troll !

I suggest you read the whole piece then, enough questions from Kimmage on the sudden silence on doping questions by Wiggo compared to his former stance in 2006-2007 with regards to Landis-Rasmussen-Moreni.

Guess you missed that part?

That puts Wiggo's and Walsh's article last week in place.

The oldcrank is just a troll, that is clear now.

Oldcrank - what are they saying about you ? One day all will be revealed.

Anyway - we can but hope so !

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I have quoted a respected journalist,
while you have violated forum policy.

No 'oldcrank', you have selectively quoted a respected journalist, and, really, violating forum policy? How about accusing people of being a fanboy of Armstrong because one is lacking comprehension skills? How about that, 'oldcrank'.

Well that's OK FGL, best we keep on pointing out all the double standards. And then we may get more articles like this.

Perhaps you could explain the path you are on, because further than Kimmage going from 'softcore' to 'hardcore' with regards to Wiggins I am getting confused.