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The Gianni Moscon Bandwagon Jumping Thread

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I once used a racial epithet to denigrate another. I was in grade 9 and still feel bad about it to this day.
I wonder how Moscon feels right now. How old is he?
I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's just a dolt.
Same goes for that Albasini guy from Orica.
 
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RedheadDane said:
1) No, it does not excuse it in the sense that it makes it okay. It does, however, in my opinion "excuse" it in the sense that it at least partly explains why he - or anybody - might say something like that - whatever it was he said - without actually being actively racist: Anger + the tiny bits of racism in society seeping through = bad things.
Your theoretical person is a unicorn.
What if he - or any rider - had constantly being complaining about how dark-skinned people shouldn't be in the sport, simply because of their skin colour?
For all you know that's what his slur was. I don't know if we'll find out exactly what he said but from what I've gleaned, it doesn't sound like it was the kind of thing that just slips out.
 
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Very disappointed in Moscon. These are the times I feel ashamed of being italian. As a member of a mixed family, with black cousins who've been abused throughout their lives, I'm even more hurt.
He has the privilege of being an internationally acclaimed athlete working in a multicultural environment. I truly hope this opportunity will let him understand a couple of things about the word. It will take time of course, but people can change.

Jancouver said:
It is my understanding that most (or many) Italians from the northern part consider everything south of Florence an "Africa". At least that what I have been told on more than one occasion by many Italians.
There's a very clear line separating racism toward people from the South and racism toward people from Africa in a northern italian's mind. He could possibly joke about them being the same, but the revamping hatred toward blacks and immigrants coming from poor countries in general is far more common nowadays. I'd say this widespread racism has actually strengthen patriotism (as happaned countless of times in history).

For the record, calling a person from the South terrone is exactly like calling a black person great person. So yeah, that post from Gloin is not simply about stereotyping, it's plain racism.
 
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the delgados said:
I once used a racial epithet to denigrate another. I was in grade 9 and still feel bad about it to this day.
I wonder how Moscon feels right now. How old is he?
I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's just a dolt.
Same goes for that Albasini guy from Orica.
It happened to me as well when I was in grade 9 and I still think about it from time to time. Why did that happen? Am I racist? I know I've got prejudices and I try to be very open about them nowadays. It's not easy to get rid of them, society shapes our points of view to a very deep level.

That's why some of RedheadDane's words actually make sense to me, but I'm still very disappointed in Moscon's behaviour. Just as much as I was disappointed by Sagan's behaviour when he grabbed that podium girl ass.
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
I am not in the "it's forgivable if you're angry and you didn't really mean it in a racist way" camp. There are lots of perfectly good ways to express your anger with somebody that doesn't involve abuse related to their ethnicity. I don't care how much you want to offend them, if you didn't mean to be racist, you wouldn't use the racist vocab, period.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here.
I don't mean that his - apparent - anger made it okay, I don't even mean that he was right to be angry. All I'm saying is that this shows that sometimes a person can say things without actually (consciously) believing them, society is so stock-full of this mentality that I honestly think it's affecting us all, even if we don't realise. Of course, if anger makes you use racist slurs, then you really need to learn how to manage your anger, especially when the cause of your anger is something in a bike race. It's entirely possible that Moscon didn't so much mean to be racist, as he meant to say what was most hurtful, which - unfortunately - was a racist slur.
Besides, what more is he supposed to do for people to accept that he actually does realise that his actions were wrong? That he regrets them, not just because of the personal repercussions it might have for himself, but because of their hurtful nature. He issued an apology. There's nothing more he can do, other than making sure it won't happen again, and why wouldn't you believe that's gonna be the case? Kevin Reza forgave him, or at least accepted his apology, and to me that's enough. Sure, they might never be best buddies in the peloton, but they don't need to be, they simply need to accept, and respect, each other as colleagues.
This might even make Moscon think about what sort of mentality has been lying underneath in his mind, and cause him to make absolutely certain those thoughts disappear from his mind entirely.


jaylew said:
RedheadDane said:
1) No, it does not excuse it in the sense that it makes it okay. It does, however, in my opinion "excuse" it in the sense that it at least partly explains why he - or anybody - might say something like that - whatever it was he said - without actually being actively racist: Anger + the tiny bits of racism in society seeping through = bad things.
Your theoretical person is a unicorn.
What if he - or any rider - had constantly being complaining about how dark-skinned people shouldn't be in the sport, simply because of their skin colour?
For all you know that's what his slur was. I don't know if we'll find out exactly what he said but from what I've gleaned, it doesn't sound like it was the kind of thing that just slips out.

What theoretical person? Other people than Moscon have used racist slurs. It's not a theory, it's a fact.

Also, we do know that Moscon hasn't constantly been complaining how dark-skinned people shouldn't be in sport, because it hasn't happened. (Possibly) complaining about it once is terrible, yes, but it isn't constantly complaining. Constantly complaining would be mentioning in interviews that he thought it was wrong at any chance he got. Constantly complaining would be using Twitter - and other social media - to voice his opinion all the time.
 
No apology or self chastisement on his twitter, I notice, and no acknowledgement at offence caused to people beyond Reza.

I can't help feeling that his apology was in the sense of "I will say sorry in the belief that nothing more should happen to me and I hope that this magic word will make that be the case", rather than sorry in the sense of "What I did was wrong, and I acknowledge that it is fair and to be expected that I am to be sanctioned for it."

Do I sound very middle aged if I say that the former understanding is a new concept of the L'Oreal generation?
 
With all due respect, RedheadDane, you're setting an outrageously high bar ("constantly complains about how black people shouldn't have a place in the sport") to dismiss someone as a racist. Most racists are not card-carrying KKK members. People who have internalized racist prejudices to some extent but who are not proper racists and try not to be won't resort to racial slurs to hurt someone.

Imagine you had a row with someone and that he told you to "get back in the kitchen". Would you think that someone is not overtly sexist?
 
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RedheadDane said:
Libertine Seguros said:
It's entirely possible that Moscon didn't so much mean to be racist, as he meant to say what was most hurtful, which - unfortunately - was a racist slur.
I'm sorry, but unless he had no idea that the words he were using were racial epithets (which I doubt, but cannot be sure of without knowing what was said) this doesn't wash with me. Because sure, he could have been saying what was most hurtful without actually personally believing that Réza is beneath him because of the colour of his skin, but unless he didn't know that those words had racial connotations, then he very much meant to use racial abuse as a means to cause offence. And there's a word for that kind of action: "racism". It doesn't matter whether the person uttering those words legitimately believes them - they're still belittling and humiliating somebody along racial lines.

I can't help but feel that, like with Albasini, you seem quite happy to apply the benefit of the doubt to an extent that many are not comfortable with. Of course he's not been going around publicly decrying that black people have no place in the sport, because if he had, he would have been hounded from it long ago and rightfully so. From your subsequent post it seems that you are willing to give the benefit of the doubt up to a very wide margin of error - i.e. that it would take him going to the length of "constantly complaining" about black people having no place in the sport before you would be prepared to decry the athlete as a racist. But there's more to discrimination than just espousing viewpoints, and creating a péloton where athletes are free to use racial epithets without being subjected to sanction creates a hostile working environment for athletes who remain very much in the minority. Kevin Réza forgave Albasini, and he forgave Moscon. That's good. But he shouldn't be put in a position where he might start to think, "who will I have to forgive next?"
 
As it's been admitted here, such unfortunate comments sparked reactions that are in my opinion out of proportion and this because it is "the 21st century" and because he is "working in a multicultural environment". It's still an unfortunate action. No excuse for. But in other times it would quickly have been forgotten and forgiven. Nowadays it is forgiven by the victim himself but not by most observers whose business it isn't. Because we live in a globalise world with global exchanges, our industry is relocated overseas and cycling itself is no exception to it, a small racist insult - which I repeat I don't approve of - becomes a crime and the perpetrator is doomed. Nobody's doomed in my eyes, everybody can change. I don't really know Moscon. I was an admirer after Paris-Roubaix and like him because he's an apple farmer and still work on the family farm and I have a soft spot for farmers (who are often disregarded as racist, as it happens). This is not going to change my opinion on him as of now because I'm not that psycho-rigid. Just like the E3-podiumgate is not directly what made me loathe Sagan, there's more to it. By the way, when Sagan body-checked Vantomme on the Kemmel, some here would excuse him like it wasn't deliberate but of course it was between two white men...
 
Re: Re:

RedheadDane said:
Libertine Seguros said:
I am not in the "it's forgivable if you're angry and you didn't really mean it in a racist way" camp. There are lots of perfectly good ways to express your anger with somebody that doesn't involve abuse related to their ethnicity. I don't care how much you want to offend them, if you didn't mean to be racist, you wouldn't use the racist vocab, period.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here.
I don't mean that his - apparent - anger made it okay, I don't even mean that he was right to be angry. All I'm saying is that this shows that sometimes a person can say things without actually (consciously) believing them, society is so stock-full of this mentality that I honestly think it's affecting us all, even if we don't realise. Of course, if anger makes you use racist slurs, then you really need to learn how to manage your anger, especially when the cause of your anger is something in a bike race. It's entirely possible that Moscon didn't so much mean to be racist, as he meant to say what was most hurtful, which - unfortunately - was a racist slur.
Besides, what more is he supposed to do for people to accept that he actually does realise that his actions were wrong? That he regrets them, not just because of the personal repercussions it might have for himself, but because of their hurtful nature. He issued an apology. There's nothing more he can do, other than making sure it won't happen again, and why wouldn't you believe that's gonna be the case? Kevin Reza forgave him, or at least accepted his apology, and to me that's enough. Sure, they might never be best buddies in the peloton, but they don't need to be, they simply need to accept, and respect, each other as colleagues.
This might even make Moscon think about what sort of mentality has been lying underneath in his mind, and cause him to make absolutely certain those thoughts disappear from his mind entirely.


jaylew said:
RedheadDane said:
1) No, it does not excuse it in the sense that it makes it okay. It does, however, in my opinion "excuse" it in the sense that it at least partly explains why he - or anybody - might say something like that - whatever it was he said - without actually being actively racist: Anger + the tiny bits of racism in society seeping through = bad things.
Your theoretical person is a unicorn.
What if he - or any rider - had constantly being complaining about how dark-skinned people shouldn't be in the sport, simply because of their skin colour?
For all you know that's what his slur was. I don't know if we'll find out exactly what he said but from what I've gleaned, it doesn't sound like it was the kind of thing that just slips out.

What theoretical person? Other people than Moscon have used racist slurs. It's not a theory, it's a fact.

Also, we do know that Moscon hasn't constantly been complaining how dark-skinned people shouldn't be in sport, because it hasn't happened. (Possibly) complaining about it once is terrible, yes, but it isn't constantly complaining. Constantly complaining would be mentioning in interviews that he thought it was wrong at any chance he got. Constantly complaining would be using Twitter - and other social media - to voice his opinion all the time.

I'm talking about your theoretical person that uses racial slurs aimed at an individual but isn't racist. We're talking about an adult here, not some kid who may have repeated something he heard said without really understanding its import.

Regarding the other, LS and Hrotha have summed it up well. And saying something like that once would be enough. Repeating it wouldn't really change anything in my book. That's not the kind of thing you say by accident, whether you're angry or not.
 
Echoes said:
As it's been admitted here, such unfortunate comments sparked reactions that are in my opinion out of proportion and this because it is "the 21st century" and because he is "working in a multicultural environment". It's still an unfortunate action. No excuse for. But in other times it would quickly have been forgotten and forgiven. Nowadays it is forgiven by the victim himself but not by most observers whose business it isn't. Because we live in a globalise world with global exchanges, our industry is relocated overseas and cycling itself is no exception to it, a small racist insult - which I repeat I don't approve of - becomes a crime and the perpetrator is doomed. Nobody's doomed in my eyes, everybody can change. I don't really know Moscon. I was an admirer after Paris-Roubaix and like him because he's an apple farmer and still work on the family farm and I have a soft spot for farmers (who are often disregarded as racist, as it happens). This is not going to change my opinion on him as of now because I'm not that psycho-rigid. Just like the E3-podiumgate is not directly what made me loathe Sagan, there's more to it. By the way, when Sagan body-checked Vantomme on the Kemmel, some here would excuse him like it wasn't deliberate but of course it was between two white men...

The psycho-rigid mantle, however, is precisely what consitutes the racist apologia. It would have been easier to say that humans are basically devious, while working on the farm keeps one down to earth (terra, terra) and less "with the times." Unfortunately for Moscon, he's been thrust into the "21st century," off the farm that is, and gets paid accordingly while representing a most sensitive to image trademark.

At the same time, we also know that the racial divide is essentially one driven by economic and social segregation, but calling it economic would be tantamount to admitting our own share in the culpability. In this sense your observation about the "multicultural environment," makes the uppity hysteria here ironic to say the least. Since multiculturalism was the inevitable result of apartheid and exploitation.
 
Geez there are some real fragile excuses on here for racism...like he didnt mean it or he was angry or it could have been worse ..he could have said .paraphrased-- I am not riding with so and so because he is not my kind of people .....LOL

The issue with racism is it is different to a slap or even vulgar name calling as it denigrates a person based solely on their race...and even more importantly its against the law.

So the argument a lawyer could make for their client when caught stealing a car..'Well it could be worse he could have stole two' wont wash I am afraid. If Gianni didnt learn anything on the farm and was closeted away will hardly hold credence as an explanation.... I come from a farm and know loads who do .....never heard a racial slur from any

Gianni angry outburst will cost him ....a fine and suspension I predict and so it should be ....

What racism also says to me about someone like Moscon is it demonstrates ignorance with a poor intellect as to the consequence on the receipent and also the reflection it casts on the malcreant. He does not fill me with the feeling that he is very bright at all

And its in times of stress we show our true colours .....Maybe Gianni could do with some education as it looks hitherto its been sadly lacking
 
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Moscon believes won't change overnight, no excuse is acceptable. He should be suspended by his team for the rest of the year without pay. Get to counseling asap during the time off.

Libertine Seguros said:
I am not in the "it's forgivable if you're angry and you didn't really mean it in a racist way" camp. There are lots of perfectly good ways to express your anger with somebody that doesn't involve abuse related to their ethnicity. I don't care how much you want to offend them, if you didn't mean to be racist, you wouldn't use the racist vocab, period.
 
Apr 21, 2017
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Seems pretty obvious to me. If Moscon referred to Reze's racial background during an argument it is because he has a deep-seated belief that a given person's race has a bearing on their value as a Hunan being. Hence, he tried to devalue Reze. He did this because he is a racist. Lots of people are. Doesn't mean he is Hitler, but it is the verbal manifestation of something really nasty.

Reze may have accepted Moscon's apology, but that itself might be symptomatic. Black people have had to suck it up for years if they wanted to be part of the white man's world.
 
So, apparently Moscon is meeting with Sky bosses today where they will decide what, if any, punishment to give him. I'm predicting something that sounds tough to the general public, but actually doesn't impact their racing schedule at all. Something like a one month suspension and a fine.

The UCI probably will follow that up with another token fine.
 
I'm talking about your theoretical person that uses racial slurs aimed at an individual but isn't racist. We're talking about an adult here, not some kid who may have repeated something he heard said without really understanding its import.

My theoretical person who's been constantly sub-consciously influenced by the racism (Western) society is still - unfortunately - stock full of? We've all got those demons without even realising. In fact, Moscon has an advantage when it comes to getting rid of them: He's been forced to face his demons - in a very public setting too - so now he's gotta deal with them.
I'm not saying that was he did wasn't wrong, it was! I'm just saying that one outburst, in a situation in which tempers for some reason ran high, does not automatically make someone a terrible person. And even if he did actually believe that black people are somehow "less", then this might be the push he needed in order to change.


cineteq said:
Moscon believes won't change overnight, no excuse is acceptable. He should be suspended by his team for the rest of the year without pay. Get to counseling asap during the time off.

Why not? Apologising in earnest - and I have no reason to believe he didn't mean it when he apologised - is the first step towards changing.


mcduff said:
Seems pretty obvious to me. If Moscon referred to Reze's racial background during an argument it is because he has a deep-seated belief that a given person's race has a bearing on their value as a Hunan being. Hence, he tried to devalue Reze. He did this because he is a racist. Lots of people are. Doesn't mean he is Hitler, but it is the verbal manifestation of something really nasty.

Maybe we all are. Not in the KKK/Hitler sense of the term, but in the... "lesser" - but in no way less hurtful - sense.
Take instances where someone gets just slightly more nervous about being faced with a group of dark-skinned people, than they'd be if faced with a similar group of white people. Or even those "feel good" stories about one "very special" immigrant getting a job and being integrated into his/her new society; doesn't that imply that the majority of immigrants aren't interested in getting jobs and becoming integrated?
 
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Squire said:
Reading some of the reactions here could make one think Moscon tried to commit murder or something...
Not really. But, based on the confirmation by Sky, he did commit a crime; one punishable with up to three years in prison in Switzerland. Whether you agree with it personally or not; racial abuse is significantly more serious than most other kinds of verbal abuse in the eyes of the law. Essentially, because it breeds and re-inforces discrimination that is still affecting black people to this day.

It is a serious offence, and needs dealing with as such.
 
Jul 6, 2016
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Just strip him off his licence forever.
Oh, and why not stripping him off all of his results until now. Just cancel the name MOSCON GIANNI of all the history of cycling.
 
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DNP-Old said:
Kazistuta said:
Does anyone even know what Moscon said? Some are judging him pretty hardly based without knowing the true extent of his racist outburst.
Does it matter?

Yes, of course it matters. Who are we to judge not knowing the facts. As Squire and others point out, some of the posters behave like the guy committed a murder. The mob mentality by some are unfitting.

By making un-enlightened statements you're trending towards rocking the same boat as the apparently un-enlightened Moscon.
 

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