The longest break Moscon has ever had between races is 15 days. The idea that he was about to embark upon a 55 day race-free period is fanciful in the extreme.
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kenk09 said:
Do people just make up stuff now? 26.06.2016 National Championships RR, 11.08.2016 Arctic Race of Norway.. that makes 46 days in my mind, just picking one example.
hazaran said:
You're right, my bad. I counted that as July. There is Zero evidence to suggest he was about to take that sort of break though. Even as a neo-pro he went to the end of June before that break.
I'd be shocked if California wasn't on his schedule.
Re: Re:
At risk of being flamed, I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.
Quick story:
I heard an interview a long time ago with a South African comedian who was going to dinner with his friend in New York City. The host instantly apologized when he suggested they get some fried chicken. He was mortified thinking the comment came across as racist.
His friend from South Africa laughed and laughed. He said he noticed people in the U.S. are more sensitive to words than dealing with actual racism (i.e. oppression), both at home and his country.
People say dumb things. It doesn't necessarily mean they think a brown person is sub-human.
No doubt there are people who are racist, but I can't help but note that many people (including university professors living in gated communities) jump on others for saying stupid things but don't say a word about the class structure that upholds racism.
Aside from what i mentioned above, the reason I'm sympathetic to the rider is that it's hard to get rid of a label slapped upon you by total strangers.
Imagine being called a Nazi or a racist by someone like me--i.e. someone who doesn't know you.
Then imagine reading messages by me on various forums calling you a racist nazi.
That schit doesn't disappear.
SafeBet said:
At risk of being flamed, I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.
Quick story:
I heard an interview a long time ago with a South African comedian who was going to dinner with his friend in New York City. The host instantly apologized when he suggested they get some fried chicken. He was mortified thinking the comment came across as racist.
His friend from South Africa laughed and laughed. He said he noticed people in the U.S. are more sensitive to words than dealing with actual racism (i.e. oppression), both at home and his country.
People say dumb things. It doesn't necessarily mean they think a brown person is sub-human.
No doubt there are people who are racist, but I can't help but note that many people (including university professors living in gated communities) jump on others for saying stupid things but don't say a word about the class structure that upholds racism.
Aside from what i mentioned above, the reason I'm sympathetic to the rider is that it's hard to get rid of a label slapped upon you by total strangers.
Imagine being called a Nazi or a racist by someone like me--i.e. someone who doesn't know you.
Then imagine reading messages by me on various forums calling you a racist nazi.
That schit doesn't disappear.
Re: Re:
That's partly what I was getting at with my comment that no one replied to.
People (in general) are more interested in punishment than dealing with the actual problem. As I said in my previous post a lot of the suggestions here in my opinion do the exact opposite of constructively reducing racism in the community and just obfuscate it until it rears its ugly head again.
But no, we demand someone must get fired and gosh darn it why are they not fired already! Then I can go home happy and think I have made the world a better place.
the delgados said:
That's partly what I was getting at with my comment that no one replied to.
People (in general) are more interested in punishment than dealing with the actual problem. As I said in my previous post a lot of the suggestions here in my opinion do the exact opposite of constructively reducing racism in the community and just obfuscate it until it rears its ugly head again.
But no, we demand someone must get fired and gosh darn it why are they not fired already! Then I can go home happy and think I have made the world a better place.
Re: Re:
deValtos: Apologies for reiterating what you already said.
Truth be told, I've skipped most responses in this thread.
That said, I completely agree.
deValtos said:the delgados said:
That's partly what I was getting at with my comment that no one replied to.
People (in general) are more interested in punishment than dealing with the actual problem. As I said in my previous post a lot of the suggestions here in my opinion do the exact opposite of constructively reducing racism in the community and just obfuscate it until it rears its ugly head again.
But no, we demand someone must get fired and gosh darn it why are they not fired already! Then I can go home happy and think I have made the world a better place.
deValtos: Apologies for reiterating what you already said.
Truth be told, I've skipped most responses in this thread.
That said, I completely agree.
kenk09 said:
Sky have 2 races in May according to their website: The Giro and the Tour of California. He wasn't part of the Giro team and I don't think he was riding Cali.
Re:
That's a great question.
I've spent a good many years working with low-paid workers from many backgrounds, and I'm going to be honest when I say i question the notion of racism.
In fact, I'm willing to go so far as to suggest that the notion is a holdover from the days of slavery.
Before you shoot me down, please note that what I'm about to say is a suggestion; I don't hold it as fact.
Like I said, I think there are holdouts from the days of slavery who actually think white people are superior to others. But that notion is too stupid to even consider. Seriously, have you or anyone else had a conversation with someone who says black people are inferior?
It would be like meeting a grown adult at a party who says he can't wait for Santa to slide down the chimney on Christmas day.
The point I'm trying to make is I believe the language police are spending too much time chatting with those who can't wait for Santa, if you know what I'm saying.
I don't have a definitive answer to your question, but I think we need to look at class structures in society in order to eradicate differences.
I know this is pie in the sky, but forgive me by saying I don't have a lot of time to elaborate right now.
hrotha said:
That's a great question.
I've spent a good many years working with low-paid workers from many backgrounds, and I'm going to be honest when I say i question the notion of racism.
In fact, I'm willing to go so far as to suggest that the notion is a holdover from the days of slavery.
Before you shoot me down, please note that what I'm about to say is a suggestion; I don't hold it as fact.
Like I said, I think there are holdouts from the days of slavery who actually think white people are superior to others. But that notion is too stupid to even consider. Seriously, have you or anyone else had a conversation with someone who says black people are inferior?
It would be like meeting a grown adult at a party who says he can't wait for Santa to slide down the chimney on Christmas day.
The point I'm trying to make is I believe the language police are spending too much time chatting with those who can't wait for Santa, if you know what I'm saying.
I don't have a definitive answer to your question, but I think we need to look at class structures in society in order to eradicate differences.
I know this is pie in the sky, but forgive me by saying I don't have a lot of time to elaborate right now.
Re:
My previous post for reference:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2102651#p2102651
I strongly believe conversation, awareness and education should be used instead of isolation and exclusion. I think the training that Moscon has been sent on will be useful for him, I don't know why some people are mocking that.
The thing is, "conversation" is a completely unsatisfactory answer for most people, and I get that. Everyone wants a "fix", a simple action that you can take that "solves" the issue. Conversation/Education etc won't change anyone's mind in a day but it works to perpetuate a slow cultural shift that everyone can get on board with. I think it's good the press reported it, I think its good the riders will be discussing the issue. I think it's good we are discussing the issue.
Sharp punishment such as firing a rider I don't believe helps them as a person. On top of that other people with similar views look at that and keep their ideas to themselves instead of being given opportunities to change. Then to go back to my Trump analogy suddenly you find yourself living among a population who you thought you knew but really didn't when it rises back up again and all the people previously excluded and shut out come out.
Call that unsatisfactory or whatever but of course there is no simple fix to such an issue (or naturally we would have done it already.) Calling for Moscon to be fired is a method of exclusion and I'm really against methods like this.
hrotha said:
My previous post for reference:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2102651#p2102651
I strongly believe conversation, awareness and education should be used instead of isolation and exclusion. I think the training that Moscon has been sent on will be useful for him, I don't know why some people are mocking that.
The thing is, "conversation" is a completely unsatisfactory answer for most people, and I get that. Everyone wants a "fix", a simple action that you can take that "solves" the issue. Conversation/Education etc won't change anyone's mind in a day but it works to perpetuate a slow cultural shift that everyone can get on board with. I think it's good the press reported it, I think its good the riders will be discussing the issue. I think it's good we are discussing the issue.
Sharp punishment such as firing a rider I don't believe helps them as a person. On top of that other people with similar views look at that and keep their ideas to themselves instead of being given opportunities to change. Then to go back to my Trump analogy suddenly you find yourself living among a population who you thought you knew but really didn't when it rises back up again and all the people previously excluded and shut out come out.
Call that unsatisfactory or whatever but of course there is no simple fix to such an issue (or naturally we would have done it already.) Calling for Moscon to be fired is a method of exclusion and I'm really against methods like this.
BYOP88 said:
I hadn't realised May was 6 weeks long.
Anyway I think the punishment is correct though Sky should have pulled him from Romandie. a written warning in any job is actually extremely serious. Hopefully the diversity training will have educational benefits for him.
While we can't be certain he was probably pencilled in for Dauphinine or Limburg which fall within the 6 weeks, but I guess well never knw but its much easier to be outraged about 6 weeks.
Anyway he has gone down in my estimation and I won't be cheering for him in future races like I don't cheer Albassini
del1962 said:
Given that the Dauphiné is a dress rehearsal of the Tour for Sky, I think it is more likely that he is scheduled to ride Suisse or Dirka po Sloveniji.
It's quite phenomenal to read Reichenbach should be praised for making it public while first it was not his business and second the two men seem to already had settled it before. Personally, reading Safebet's translation just confirmed my opinion. A young guy who made a mistake, regretted it, properly apologised for it to the victim and his whole team. The thing should be closed by then. The rest is mob justice and can only give my sympathy to a guy who is alone against everybody, against people who judge and are sure of their superior morality. I'd like to jump on the bandwagon right now, actually.
Echoes said:
Utter crap. So if you witness a crime, you shouldn't report it because it's not your business?
Ricco' said:
Sky wont race Slovenia.
they do California, then the new race in the Netherlands (Hammer Sportzone Limburg), Suisse, Dauphiné.
BYOP88 said:
He witnessed sincere apologies and a reconciliation between two guys. He appeared cool and relaxed when Moscon came to apologise while then fired him on Twitter. If I believe Moscon's comments translated by Safebet. That makes him a hypo.
Echoes said:
Do we know for certain that's the order things happened in?
First Moscon came to apologise, and then Reichenbach sent his tweet? Because, to me it makes more sense if it was the other way around:
First Reichenbach - understandably enraged at the treatment of his teammate - sent his tweet.
Then Moscon - possibly as a result of seeing aforementioned tweet, especially if he truly didn't realise the hurtfulness of his words in the moment - realised that "Oh... crap! I *** up!"
According to Safebet's translation, he apologised at the end of the stage and on his own accord.
I think we should do a better job of not condemning him and giving him another shot, that goes for many things in life and I think it should apply here as well... I won't see him in all that much of a different light. He is still young, he has apologised and learnt from his mistakes, I think thats the most important part. Many of us can *** up and do stupid things from time to time, I think.
At the finish line Reza confronted Moscon, who apologised for what he said.
Reichenbach took it to Twitter later.
Moscon and Sky went to the FDJ team bus the morning after for an official apology.
This is all according to Moscon.
Sorry if it wasn't clear in my previous translation.
Reichenbach took it to Twitter later.
Moscon and Sky went to the FDJ team bus the morning after for an official apology.
This is all according to Moscon.
Sorry if it wasn't clear in my previous translation.
Social media pressure and condemning has been a big issue in this decade. You can read it anywhere. It is a big deal. It has lead companies to firing and letting people out to dry on the streets. It can even lead to suicides in teens.
I am not defending Moscon by any chance. But things like this can happen in other circumstances to many people as well. We have to be careful. These kids, riders or whatever has been thought to be racist since childhood. It is up to them to make a difference now. Not sure if he will change his mind, but for sure at least to change his behavior. I am sure he must be pissed at himself and to some extent to his parents.
I have experienced racism during my life when I was in College. I went back to my college 20 years after and sure it had changed so much. It just part of how human beings evolve in society. It just takes time, years and decades. We'll see.
I am not defending Moscon by any chance. But things like this can happen in other circumstances to many people as well. We have to be careful. These kids, riders or whatever has been thought to be racist since childhood. It is up to them to make a difference now. Not sure if he will change his mind, but for sure at least to change his behavior. I am sure he must be pissed at himself and to some extent to his parents.
I have experienced racism during my life when I was in College. I went back to my college 20 years after and sure it had changed so much. It just part of how human beings evolve in society. It just takes time, years and decades. We'll see.
Echoes said:
Racist abuse in the workplace is everyone's business. If this had been dealt with quietly, a message is sent that it's no big deal and that other people in the future can get away with it. That Moscon's actions have brought public humiliation sends a message that it isn't acceptable and that anyone who wants to do it had better be prepared to be generally thought of as a racist idiot.
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