• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

The Gianni Moscon Bandwagon Jumping Thread

Page 11 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Re:

SafeBet said:
At the finish line Reza confronted Moscon, who apologised for what he said.
Reichenbach took it to Twitter later.
Moscon and Sky went to the FDJ team bus the morning after for an official apology.

This is all according to Moscon.
Sorry if it wasn't clear in my previous translation.

So, when did the incident happen?
 
Apr 15, 2013
954
0
0
Visit site
Zinoviev Letter said:
Echoes said:
It's quite phenomenal to read Reichenbach should be praised for making it public while first it was not his business and second the two men seem to already had settled it before

Racist abuse in the workplace is everyone's business. If this had been dealt with quietly, a message is sent that it's no big deal and that other people in the future can get away with it. That Moscon's actions have brought public humiliation sends a message that it isn't acceptable and that anyone who wants to do it had better be prepared to be generally thought of as a racist idiot.

+1. Moscon and Reza calling each other names in the heat of the battle and then settling it at the end with a frank talk is fine and it happens everyday. But once you throw a racist insult into it, it becomes bigger. It doesn't need to be overblown, but it's beyond "settle it yourselves guys" territory and calls for a proper sanction. Nothing too crazy, he didn't kill anyone, but an official short suspension by the UCI as well as a hefty fine + the sky team suspension would be all good.
 
veji11 said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
Echoes said:
It's quite phenomenal to read Reichenbach should be praised for making it public while first it was not his business and second the two men seem to already had settled it before

Racist abuse in the workplace is everyone's business. If this had been dealt with quietly, a message is sent that it's no big deal and that other people in the future can get away with it. That Moscon's actions have brought public humiliation sends a message that it isn't acceptable and that anyone who wants to do it had better be prepared to be generally thought of as a racist idiot.

+1. Moscon and Reza calling each other names in the heat of the battle and then settling it at the end with a frank talk is fine and it happens everyday. But once you throw a racist insult into it, it becomes bigger. It doesn't need to be overblown, but it's beyond "settle it yourselves guys" territory and calls for a proper sanction. Nothing too crazy, he didn't kill anyone, but an official short suspension by the UCI as well as a hefty fine + the sky team suspension would be all good.
I'm not 100% sure I agree. I think it depends on what was said. Does anyone know that?
 
Re: Re:

RedheadDane said:
SafeBet said:
At the finish line Reza confronted Moscon, who apologised for what he said.
Reichenbach took it to Twitter later.
Moscon and Sky went to the FDJ team bus the morning after for an official apology.

This is all according to Moscon.
Sorry if it wasn't clear in my previous translation.

So, when did the incident happen?
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. The racial insult certainly happened during the race, probably in the final kms.

If I had to guess what Moscon said it'd be negro (ni*ger). He said it was one word.
 
veji11 said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
Echoes said:
It's quite phenomenal to read Reichenbach should be praised for making it public while first it was not his business and second the two men seem to already had settled it before

Racist abuse in the workplace is everyone's business. If this had been dealt with quietly, a message is sent that it's no big deal and that other people in the future can get away with it. That Moscon's actions have brought public humiliation sends a message that it isn't acceptable and that anyone who wants to do it had better be prepared to be generally thought of as a racist idiot.

+1. Moscon and Reza calling each other names in the heat of the battle and then settling it at the end with a frank talk is fine and it happens everyday. But once you throw a racist insult into it, it becomes bigger. It doesn't need to be overblown, but it's beyond "settle it yourselves guys" territory and calls for a proper sanction. Nothing too crazy, he didn't kill anyone, but an official short suspension by the UCI as well as a hefty fine + the sky team suspension would be all good.
I really think that if they can figure it out between each other, it should be a done deal. Now it's a case where 2 people seemingly figured it out between each other, and it's all blown up only due to media making it bigger than it needs to be.

There's so many similar insults used to refer to people of other groups, or categories of people we identify ourselves as. People get triggered because they're indoctrinated to be triggered.
 
Red Rick said:
veji11 said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
Echoes said:
It's quite phenomenal to read Reichenbach should be praised for making it public while first it was not his business and second the two men seem to already had settled it before

Racist abuse in the workplace is everyone's business. If this had been dealt with quietly, a message is sent that it's no big deal and that other people in the future can get away with it. That Moscon's actions have brought public humiliation sends a message that it isn't acceptable and that anyone who wants to do it had better be prepared to be generally thought of as a racist idiot.

+1. Moscon and Reza calling each other names in the heat of the battle and then settling it at the end with a frank talk is fine and it happens everyday. But once you throw a racist insult into it, it becomes bigger. It doesn't need to be overblown, but it's beyond "settle it yourselves guys" territory and calls for a proper sanction. Nothing too crazy, he didn't kill anyone, but an official short suspension by the UCI as well as a hefty fine + the sky team suspension would be all good.
I really think that if they can figure it out between each other, it should be a done deal. Now it's a case where 2 people seemingly figured it out between each other, and it's all blown up only due to media making it bigger than it needs to be.

There's so many similar insults used to refer to people of other groups, or categories of people we identify ourselves as. People get triggered because they're indoctrinated to be triggered.
This is a really shameful attempt at moral equivalence. It's not about being triggered, it's about the weight of history. Racism is not the same as 'similar insults', because it is built on and reinforces centuries of slavery, oppresion and extreme discrimnation. Calling someone another insult or using an adjective in a pejorative way like fat or stupid, or Dutch just isn't comparable, because many millions of people throughout history have not been systematically subjugated, enslaved and heavily discrimnated against because they are fat or stupid or Dutch.

Racism is a special case because there is a need to right the wrongs of the past, and it has to be treated especialy harshly because racist attitudes and racial discrimination are still all too common in society. You just need to look at the composition of the pro peloton to see that. When someone in the public eye uses racist abuse, then they absolutely should be widely condemned for it and they should be made an example of. And, even if Reza accepts the apology, why should Reichenbach or anyone else who heard it stay quiet if they were deeply offended by their friend being abused?
 
Cordi333 said:
Poor Moscon. He's a victim of our hypocrite mass media society.
...only it would have been quite easy for Gianni Moscon to avoid being made a victim of the oppression of the hypocritical mass media society, though. He could have just, you know, not racially abused somebody in a public setting.

Instead of dwelling on feeling sorry for the Moscon, reflect on the fact that racism being so thoroughly condemned is a positive thing.
 
I doubt if Reichenbach didn't make it public, Sky would have tendered the formal appology and take action against Moscon.

The incident would have been swept under the carpet, Moscon wouldn't have learnt anything, and nor would it discourage racist actions in the future.

It's a pity that some posters here tend to find fault with people who stand up against racism.
 
Cordi333 said:
Poor Moscon. He's a victim of our hypocrite mass media society.

Yup Moscon is the victim. :rolleyes: He violated a fairly serious UCI code of conduct. As has been posted multiple times already, tempers flair in every work place and should someone decide, in the heat of the moment, to use a racial slur against someone, some type of action is taken. The "Boys will be boys" bs doesn't fly. The codes of conduct that are drawn up by HR/Personnel divisions are there to protect employees from this type of abuse. Saying "I'm sorry" doesn't absolve the person of what they did.
 
Re:

rick james said:
you guys are making more of a issue about it than the guy Moscon actually spoke to...its seems Moscon knows he was wrong and he's admitted that...time to move on

Reza is likely fearful of the ramifications from some in the peloton if he had made a big deal of it. He likely just wants to race his bike without this incident being what first comes to mind when his name is mentioned. It's just unfortunate for him that Moscon put him in this position.

Are you asking that we move on from discussing this because you don't feel the topic is worthy of discussion?
 
Re:

rick james said:
you guys are making more of a issue about it than the guy Moscon actually spoke to...its seems Moscon knows he was wrong and he's admitted that...time to move on

Kevin Reza is the guy's name and to quote the Cyclingsnews report of the suspension, Moscon 'hurled racial insults' at him. It won't be time to move on until the UCI impose their sanction(s).
 
May 28, 2012
2,779
0
0
Visit site
DFA123 said:
Red Rick said:
veji11 said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
Echoes said:
It's quite phenomenal to read Reichenbach should be praised for making it public while first it was not his business and second the two men seem to already had settled it before

Racist abuse in the workplace is everyone's business. If this had been dealt with quietly, a message is sent that it's no big deal and that other people in the future can get away with it. That Moscon's actions have brought public humiliation sends a message that it isn't acceptable and that anyone who wants to do it had better be prepared to be generally thought of as a racist idiot.

+1. Moscon and Reza calling each other names in the heat of the battle and then settling it at the end with a frank talk is fine and it happens everyday. But once you throw a racist insult into it, it becomes bigger. It doesn't need to be overblown, but it's beyond "settle it yourselves guys" territory and calls for a proper sanction. Nothing too crazy, he didn't kill anyone, but an official short suspension by the UCI as well as a hefty fine + the sky team suspension would be all good.
I really think that if they can figure it out between each other, it should be a done deal. Now it's a case where 2 people seemingly figured it out between each other, and it's all blown up only due to media making it bigger than it needs to be.

There's so many similar insults used to refer to people of other groups, or categories of people we identify ourselves as. People get triggered because they're indoctrinated to be triggered.
This is a really shameful attempt at moral equivalence. It's not about being triggered, it's about the weight of history. Racism is not the same as 'similar insults', because it is built on and reinforces centuries of slavery, oppresion and extreme discrimnation. Calling someone another insult or using an adjective in a pejorative way like fat or stupid, or Dutch just isn't comparable, because many millions of people throughout history have not been systematically subjugated, enslaved and heavily discrimnated against because they are fat or stupid or Dutch.

Racism is a special case because there is a need to right the wrongs of the past, and it has to be treated especialy harshly because racist attitudes and racial discrimination are still all too common in society. You just need to look at the composition of the pro peloton to see that. When someone in the public eye uses racist abuse, then they absolutely should be widely condemned for it and they should be made an example of. And, even if Reza accepts the apology, why should Reichenbach or anyone else who heard it stay quiet if they were deeply offended by their friend being abused?

Legislation is built based on lessons learnt from the past; it should shape a better future, and not rewrite history. What's done is done, and knowing the truth of what happened helps us today.

Moscon has been in the wrong here, but nobody's getting better from this. Instead of solving this by private discussion and creating understanding, Moscon has received an enormous stigma. And plenty of people justify this, while we're not even talking about a convicted criminal.

There are serious offences nowadays that incite less outrage than just suspected racist comments. There's some heavy social conditioning going on in our minds.
 
Mar 13, 2015
2,637
0
0
Visit site
BYOP88 said:
Echoes said:
It's quite phenomenal to read Reichenbach should be praised for making it public while first it was not his business and second the two men seem to already had settled it before. Personally, reading Safebet's translation just confirmed my opinion. A young guy who made a mistake, regretted it, properly apologised for it to the victim and his whole team. The thing should be closed by then. The rest is mob justice and can only give my sympathy to a guy who is alone against everybody, against people who judge and are sure of their superior morality. I'd like to jump on the bandwagon right now, actually.

Utter crap. So if you witness a crime, you shouldn't report it because it's not your business?

Not comparable at all. If there was no apology, or no accept of apology, and he reported it than he'll be more than right. This way however, I agree with Echoes, his deeds are not worth of praising
 
Pentacycle said:
Legislation is built based on lessons learnt from the past; it should shape a better future, and not rewrite history. What's done is done, and knowing the truth of what happened helps us today.

Moscon has been in the wrong here, but nobody's getting better from this. Instead of solving this by private discussion and creating understanding, Moscon has received an enormous stigma. And plenty of people justify this, while we're not even talking about a convicted criminal.

There are serious offences nowadays that incite less outrage than just suspected racist comments. There's some heavy social conditioning going on in our minds.
Well, you've spectacularly missed the point. There is legislation stating that racist abuse is illegal, and the reason for that is because racial discrimination is still prevalent in society today. Black people are no longer being lynched on mass like in the past, but they are still being disproportionately shot by the police, still discriminated against in many jobs (including one suspects the pro peloton), and they are still verbally abused just because of the colour of their skin. So 'what's done is done' is a meaningless soundbite, because it's not done; the effects of hundreds of years of racial discrimination still continue in many walks of life. Which is why racist abuse is treated differently, in the eyes of the law, than most other kind of verbal abuse.

Moscon has got a stigma because he racially abused a fellow professional. He picked out one of the only black riders at the top level of the sport and used his skin colour as a means of abusing him - despite all the cultural and historic significance of doing that. So the stigma he has right now is fully deserved and will only diminish and go away with considerable time, provided of course, he doesn't do a similar thing again.
 
DFA123 said:
Red Rick said:
veji11 said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
Echoes said:
It's quite phenomenal to read Reichenbach should be praised for making it public while first it was not his business and second the two men seem to already had settled it before

Racist abuse in the workplace is everyone's business. If this had been dealt with quietly, a message is sent that it's no big deal and that other people in the future can get away with it. That Moscon's actions have brought public humiliation sends a message that it isn't acceptable and that anyone who wants to do it had better be prepared to be generally thought of as a racist idiot.

+1. Moscon and Reza calling each other names in the heat of the battle and then settling it at the end with a frank talk is fine and it happens everyday. But once you throw a racist insult into it, it becomes bigger. It doesn't need to be overblown, but it's beyond "settle it yourselves guys" territory and calls for a proper sanction. Nothing too crazy, he didn't kill anyone, but an official short suspension by the UCI as well as a hefty fine + the sky team suspension would be all good.
I really think that if they can figure it out between each other, it should be a done deal. Now it's a case where 2 people seemingly figured it out between each other, and it's all blown up only due to media making it bigger than it needs to be.

There's so many similar insults used to refer to people of other groups, or categories of people we identify ourselves as. People get triggered because they're indoctrinated to be triggered.
This is a really shameful attempt at moral equivalence. It's not about being triggered, it's about the weight of history. Racism is not the same as 'similar insults', because it is built on and reinforces centuries of slavery, oppresion and extreme discrimnation. Calling someone another insult or using an adjective in a pejorative way like fat or stupid, or Dutch just isn't comparable, because many millions of people throughout history have not been systematically subjugated, enslaved and heavily discrimnated against because they are fat or stupid or Dutch.

Racism is a special case because there is a need to right the wrongs of the past, and it has to be treated especialy harshly because racist attitudes and racial discrimination are still all too common in society. You just need to look at the composition of the pro peloton to see that. When someone in the public eye uses racist abuse, then they absolutely should be widely condemned for it and they should be made an example of. And, even if Reza accepts the apology, why should Reichenbach or anyone else who heard it stay quiet if they were deeply offended by their friend being abused?

Problem was caused by Moscon, 100%. I'm not denying that. Undoubtedly, Moscon shouldn't have said what he said, and it's incredibly stupid that he did what he did.

I think that when things are blown out of proportion, and a discussion gets heated, it mostly leads to more tension.
 
Red Rick said:
DFA123 said:
This is a really shameful attempt at moral equivalence. It's not about being triggered, it's about the weight of history. Racism is not the same as 'similar insults', because it is built on and reinforces centuries of slavery, oppresion and extreme discrimnation. Calling someone another insult or using an adjective in a pejorative way like fat or stupid, or Dutch just isn't comparable, because many millions of people throughout history have not been systematically subjugated, enslaved and heavily discrimnated against because they are fat or stupid or Dutch.

Racism is a special case because there is a need to right the wrongs of the past, and it has to be treated especialy harshly because racist attitudes and racial discrimination are still all too common in society. You just need to look at the composition of the pro peloton to see that. When someone in the public eye uses racist abuse, then they absolutely should be widely condemned for it and they should be made an example of. And, even if Reza accepts the apology, why should Reichenbach or anyone else who heard it stay quiet if they were deeply offended by their friend being abused?

Problem was caused by Moscon, 100%. I'm not denying that. Undoubtedly, Moscon shouldn't have said what he said, and it's incredibly stupid that he did what he did.

I think that when things are blown out of proportion, and a discussion gets heated, it mostly leads to more tension.
Ah OK, fair enough then. I kind of agree with those sentiments in general, I just feel that in this case its not really being blown out of proportion. Because, imo, racism is still a huge problem and when a figure in the public eye makes a racist comment, there should be a big fuss about it to send the message that those actions are completely unacceptable nowadays in society. Sure, it may be making an example out of Moscon, more so than the average man on the street - but that comes with the territory of being a prominent public figure imo.
 
Angliru said:
Cordi333 said:
Poor Moscon. He's a victim of our hypocrite mass media society.

Yup Moscon is the victim. :rolleyes: He violated a fairly serious UCI code of conduct. As has been posted multiple times already, tempers flair in every work place and should someone decide, in the heat of the moment, to use a racial slur against someone, some type of action is taken. The "Boys will be boys" bs doesn't fly. The codes of conduct that are drawn up by HR/Personnel divisions are there to protect employees from this type of abuse. Saying "I'm sorry" doesn't absolve the person of what they did.

I think you have to persecute bullying, the constant abuses, and not an isolated offense.
Because is natural that when you are angry, you don't say to the other just beautiful things. And if the other is black, that makes you a racist? I don't think so. It only makes you a rude guy.


So the true problem is the racial discrimination (still present in almost any places, also cyclist world) and not two insults in a dispute.
For example, I guess some of the folks that enjoy themselves writing how bad is Gianni, are positioned against inmigrants. And yeah, that is real racism. That is being hypocrital.

In other way, there are more important problems than this topic, like that africans still today having very hard to arrive to the professional level. UCI must work to improve this, and not spend efforts in banning people just for pose.


Anyway, I don't know Moscon. He may be a racist, who knows. But he's not a racist because of this.
 
Cordi333 said:
I think you have to persecute bullying, the constant abuses, and not an isolated offense.
Because is natural that when you are angry, you don't say to the other just beautiful things. And if the other is black, that makes you a racist? I don't think so. It only makes you a rude guy.
This really is not that complicated.

If you insult someone, and they happen to be black, then no, that isn't necessarily racist.
But if you insult somebody who is black using racial epithets, then yes, that is necessarily racist.

We know from both sides of the story that Moscon used racial slurs against Reza, therefore committed an act of racism. It doesn't matter in that respect whether he truly believes black people are beneath him, or whatever, which hopefully he doesn't - it doesn't stop the use of racial abuse from being racist. It makes it more likely that he can learn from the situation, resolve it with the victim (which he has seemingly done) and put it behind him, sure - but it doesn't stop the abuse itself from being racist.
 
Ricco' said:
del1962 said:
BYOP88 said:
kenk09 said:
The longest break Moscon has ever had between races is 15 days. The idea that he was about to embark upon a 55 day race-free period is fanciful in the extreme.

Sky have 2 races in May according to their website: The Giro and the Tour of California. He wasn't part of the Giro team and I don't think he was riding Cali.

I hadn't realised May was 6 weeks long.

Anyway I think the punishment is correct though Sky should have pulled him from Romandie. a written warning in any job is actually extremely serious. Hopefully the diversity training will have educational benefits for him.

While we can't be certain he was probably pencilled in for Dauphinine or Limburg which fall within the 6 weeks, but I guess well never knw but its much easier to be outraged about 6 weeks.

Anyway he has gone down in my estimation and I won't be cheering for him in future races like I don't cheer Albassini

Given that the Dauphiné is a dress rehearsal of the Tour for Sky, I think it is more likely that he is scheduled to ride Suisse or Dirka po Sloveniji.

I have no idea where this mythical bullsh1t that he wasn't down to race for 6 weeks comes from, its unlikely that anyone racing the Giro will do the dauphinine so of 28 riders that leaves 19 left, with Poels and Benat I status unknown possibly only 17, take out Moscon and thats 16 between Cali and the Dauphinine, so I am sure Sky would want him available as one of their stronger rouleurs, no names for Cali except the leader Boswell have been announced, so those who can definately say he wasn't done to race are talking out of their rear end
 
del1962 said:
Ricco' said:
del1962 said:
BYOP88 said:
kenk09 said:
The longest break Moscon has ever had between races is 15 days. The idea that he was about to embark upon a 55 day race-free period is fanciful in the extreme.

Sky have 2 races in May according to their website: The Giro and the Tour of California. He wasn't part of the Giro team and I don't think he was riding Cali.

I hadn't realised May was 6 weeks long.

Anyway I think the punishment is correct though Sky should have pulled him from Romandie. a written warning in any job is actually extremely serious. Hopefully the diversity training will have educational benefits for him.

While we can't be certain he was probably pencilled in for Dauphinine or Limburg which fall within the 6 weeks, but I guess well never knw but its much easier to be outraged about 6 weeks.

Anyway he has gone down in my estimation and I won't be cheering for him in future races like I don't cheer Albassini

Given that the Dauphiné is a dress rehearsal of the Tour for Sky, I think it is more likely that he is scheduled to ride Suisse or Dirka po Sloveniji.

I have no idea where this mythical ****** that he wasn't down to race for 6 weeks comes from, its unlikely that anyone racing the Giro will do the dauphinine so of 28 riders that leaves 19 left, with Poels and Benat I status unknown possibly only 17, take out Moscon and thats 16 between Cali and the Dauphinine, so I am sure Sky would want him available as one of their stronger rouleurs, no names for Cali except the leader Boswell have been announced, so those who can definately say he wasn't done to race are talking out of their rear end




Tao Geoghegan Hart said in interview that he's going to California and they are going to have a young team (maybe he didn't know about the suspension when he gave the interview) but i'm pretty sure that Moscon were scheduled. Maybe when we are going to know how many riders they send in California, that will give us an answer. P.S. He did California last year,
 

TRENDING THREADS