The Iron Lady has passed away

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She won't be mourned in these parts but I can't rejoice in her passing. Thatcher's unintended legacy to Scotland was devolution and possibly independence if the 2014 vote goes SNP's way. She single handedly destroyed Conservative support in Scotland down to a bit player. Her PMship is a bitter memory for a lot of us here in the UK and particularly in the North. Not a subject to be taken lightly by anyone who wasn't directly affected by it at the time.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Amsterhammer said:
Yes, she was. She was certainly all wrong in her dealings with the Irish and Scots, with the miners and the entire manufacturing sector. She was wrong for the Poll Tax, she was wrong to abolish the GLC out of spite because her party could never win control. She was wrong for introducing the Gordon Gekko concept of "greed is good", and making it the leitmotif of her reign. She was wrong in breaking unions for the express purpose of ensuring that the rich elite could become even richer still at the expense of everyone else. She was wrong in supporting the worst right wing killer dictators on the planet, while calling Mandela a "terrorist". For that alone she deserves to be chewed up and spit out by history. She was a vile, manipulating, megalomaniac ***** who liked using the royal 'we'.

The people, certainly those in the US, who are now praising Thatcher and complaining about how the left is reacting, are the same people who rejoiced at the recent passing of Chavez. Many Americans (and others) appear not to realize just how deeply hated this woman was.

Deeply hated but elected 3 times. Makes you wonder just how deep that hate ran. The fact is that her policies were democratically elected three times with significant majorities. You can't please all of the people all of the time.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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I was at a play last night singing along to the opening song of Act 2:

Merry Christmas Maggie Thatcher
We all celebrate today
Cos it's one day closer to your death


Oops, we're perhaps a bit more influential out here than I had thought.

Daily Mail WTF? She saved Britain from what? Prosperity? Social equality? Pesky things like jobs?

The Principal Sheep said:
An old lady has died and to that I cannot celebrate, I will only say that it is regrettable that the damage her policies have caused will outlive her.
Very well put.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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LugHugger said:
Deeply hated but elected 3 times. Makes you wonder just how deep that hate ran. The fact is that her policies were democratically elected three times with significant majorities. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

She won her first election because the Labour Party was a complete shambles. All polls suggested that she would lose the second one, until the Falklands happened to come along. Nothing like a short, sharp, successful, little war to rally the country behind you. She won the 83 election with a landslide, due to both the split of the opposition vote between Labour and the SDLP, and because she had bashed the Argies. The Tory majority was so great, that there was no way they could lose it in 87. In that sense, I don't think it's fair or correct to suggest, as you do, that her policies enjoyed widespread popular support.
 
Amsterhammer said:
She won her first election because the Labour Party was a complete shambles. All polls suggested that she would lose the second one, until the Falklands happened to come along. Nothing like a short, sharp, successful, little war to rally the country behind you. She won the 83 election with a landslide, due to both the split of the opposition vote between Labour and the SDLP, and because she had bashed the Argies. The Tory majority was so great, that there was no way they could lose it in 87. In that sense, I don't think it's fair or correct to suggest, as you do, that her policies enjoyed widespread popular support.

I'm out, but please don't let the trolls get under your skin for much longer mate.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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ruamruam said:
She was a horrible person.

Elvis Costello can finally now do what he promised to do in 1987.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t4-zDem1Sk

I was going to post this too. Everybody should listen to this song. Here is an excerpt from the lyrics:
Well I hope I don't die too soon
I pray the lord my soul to save
Oh I'll be a good boy,
I'm trying so hard to behave
Because there's one thing I know,
I'd like to live long enough to savour
That when they finally put you in the ground
I'll stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Arnout said:
Overall people living in capitalism are still vastly better off than during Thatcher's reign. In that sense, saying that she created enormous misery is misguided at best. What Thatcher did was prepare for the future. Societies needed a shake up. Looking at England in the 70s, we see outdated coal mines and a dysfunctional manufacturing sector, combined with a generous welfare state. This combination was unsustainable, and Thatcher tried to fix this. Maybe she was too brutal in doing some things, but in the end there was no choice.
There is always a choice. Reagan, Bush Sr. and to a lesser extent Clinton did much the same for the US (increasing wealth gap/spurring economic boom) yet did so with far less cruelty.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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ferryman said:
She won't be mourned in these parts but I can't rejoice in her passing. Thatcher's unintended legacy to Scotland was devolution and possibly independence if the 2014 vote goes SNP's way. She single handedly destroyed Conservative support in Scotland down to a bit player. Her PMship is a bitter memory for a lot of us here in the UK and particularly in the North. Not a subject to be taken lightly by anyone who wasn't directly affected by it at the time.

check out frankie boyle on mock the week posted up thread
ANCrider said:
Let's let the amazing Frankie Boyle (you aren't allowed comedians like him in the US ;) ) have the last word...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmmomV-ax-s
 
Arnout said:
Overall people living in capitalism are still vastly better off than during Thatcher's reign. In that sense, saying that she created enormous misery is misguided at best. What Thatcher did was prepare for the future. Societies needed a shake up. Looking at England in the 70s, we see outdated coal mines and a dysfunctional manufacturing sector, combined with a generous welfare state. This combination was unsustainable, and Thatcher tried to fix this. Maybe she was too brutal in doing some things, but in the end there was no choice.

So even taking the economy at face value, growth rates were better before than after, yet she worked some kind of economic miracle which would have doomed the country otherwise?
 
Oct 11, 2010
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Zam_Olyas said:
Are you going to England for the funeral?

Morrissey - Margaret on the Guillotine

Lol, I was going to post that as well.

Statement from Moz:

Every move she made was charged by negativity; she destroyed the British manufacturing industry, she hated the miners, she hated the arts, she hated the Irish Freedom Fighters and allowed them to die, she hated the English poor and did nothing at all to help them, she hated Greenpeace and environmental protectionists, she was the only European political leader who opposed a ban on the Ivory Trade, she had no wit and no warmth and even her own Cabinet booted her out. She gave the order to blow up The Belgrano even though it was outside of the Malvinas Exclusion Zone - and was sailing AWAY from the islands! When the young Argentinean boys aboard The Belgrano had suffered a most appalling and unjust death, Thatcher gave the thumbs up sign for the British press. Iron? No. Barbaric? Yes. She hated feminists even though it was largely due to the progression of the women's movement that the British people allowed themselves to accept that a Prime Minister could actually be female. But because of Thatcher, there will never again be another woman in power in British politics, and rather than opening that particular door for other women, she closed it. Thatcher will only be fondly remembered by sentimentalists who did not suffer under her leadership, but the majority of British working people have forgotten her already, and the people of Argentina will be celebrating her death. As a matter of recorded fact, Thatcher was a terror without an atom of humanity.
 
Arnout said:
Overall people living in capitalism are still vastly better off than during Thatcher's reign. In that sense, saying that she created enormous misery is misguided at best. What Thatcher did was prepare for the future. Societies needed a shake up. Looking at England in the 70s, we see outdated coal mines and a dysfunctional manufacturing sector, combined with a generous welfare state. This combination was unsustainable, and Thatcher tried to fix this. Maybe she was too brutal in doing some things, but in the end there was no choice.

When the costs of home production were too high to meet consumption demands based of course on the folly of eternal growth, capitalism found a way to compensate by exploiting more congenial labor markets abroad in the underdeveloped world, thus eviscerating local manufacturing and depressing entire segments of society. At the same time a service industry was invented to provide jobs to workers no longer in the labor market, while mass credit became a way for the banks to profit on interest repayments on the money that wasn't put into their salaries. Nice system.

Of course to make it all work the social state had to be literally dismantled along with the trade barriers, while the financial markets had to become deregulated for capital to obtain its final dominion over human beings, the big players to get exceedingly rich, while the middle class and poor increasingly struggled, stripped as they were of even the minimum of social net to cushion the fall - though at once were given promises of a better life if they just continued to be good consumers and have faith in the opportunities that the neoliberal regime with its "new economy" surely would promise.

Thatcher, who was really the last traditional States(wo)man, and Regan, who was really the first post-modern one in his conviction that sovereign debt really doesn’t matter, shared a common loathing for society and collective organization and had a policy guided by a market fundamentalism that has since demonstrated to have impoverished the West both materially and culturally, while at once signaling its decline. The general boom in the beginning, however, rested mostly upon rhetorical foundations and was geared to stirring up the most deplorable human instincts: greed, callousness, mendacity, materialism, baseness.

Communism was vigorously opposed even in supporting the most bloody dictators and regimes, while having tea with the torturers of Pinochet, for her Mendela was a terrorist, Mideast policy further fostered anti-Western Arab loathing, Britain moved further away from Europe, workers became destitute, the financial markets were all a buzz, etc.

When in 1979 she became Prime Minister, Britain was in a manner of speaking suspended between the failed attempt of the previous labor government to give life and stability to a social democracy and a new approach toward economic governance. The latter triumphed over the former, while Thatcher seminated more division than any political figure in modern history. Mass unemployment, closed factories, destroyed communities: that's what she left in her wake. She was a warrior and her foe was the working class. Her victories were facilitated in large part by a corrupt labor party and a majority of the union leaders. Thanks to her policy, which gave rise to neoliberal economics, Britain and the West finds itself in the current disaster.

Not what we call a decent track record, either in regards to the shape and form of the evolution of capitalism or in regards to policy.
 
I grew up in Liverpool in the 80's. I saw first hand the effect her economic policies had on families and communities. I felt the anger at 24 years of lies over Hillsborough and the decision made by politicians that they had to protect the South Yorkshire Police as a warped payback for all they done to destroy the miners in 1984, and anyway who really gave a toss about 96 dead scouse football fans?

People that eulogise her always say the same thing "She stuck to her guns" These idiots are too stupid to realise those guns were pointed at us.

I'm glad she's dead.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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ferryman said:
I'm out, but please don't let the trolls get under your skin for much longer mate.

How were they trolls? The trolls being up thread where a few posters show some support or respect to M.T.?

This post made by a admin? Unbelievable. :cool:

I don't give a rats *** about M.T. but thought it was rather sharp to celebrate her death. Socialist and Communist seems to hold her in low regards.

I don't see how the US opinion matters as it has been pointed out in the thread already. The US perspective can only be made regarding foreign policy or the view from abroad. Which means it would be very hard for a USA citizen could have a fair assessment of her years as a UK prime minister.


Enjoy it I guess. There was a huge amount of folks (estimated 300?) in Glasgow dancing for her death. WTF? :eek:
 
ding ****

Swifty's Cakes said:
I'm glad she's dead.

as are a large proportion of the british population...................she would never have been welcome where i live

ding d0ng.........the wicked witch is dead

i recall a trip to anfield sitting with the home fans in my black and white shirt
...................i was welcomed warmly...............of course it was easier as liverpool had it all their way.............we were well stuffed!

Mark L
 
Glenn_Wilson said:
Enjoy it I guess. There was a huge amount of folks (estimated 300?) in Glasgow dancing for her death. WTF? :eek:

I don't agree with it, but she destroyed Glasgow and much of Scotland. Having not had first or even second hand experience of this I won't criticise them, but I do live in Glasgow now and she is reviled and rightly so.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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554970_359736997460242_1811437238_n.jpg
 
Oct 30, 2011
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Arnout said:
Exactly. The entire Western world was going down at the time, with ultra-generous welfare states, unsustainable budget deficits and generally an attitude that the West could do anything and still carry on to be prosperous.

However, thanks to Thatcherite policies we are now doing great.
 
gooner said:
It can't be left without mentioning the hunger strike and her role in all this which further galvanised the republican movement to violence means due to her failure to recognise any political prisoner status to them which led to 10 deaths as a result. Seamus Mallon(SDLP) said we still fell the effects of that today and she alienated the Nationalist community in the process and drove moderate ones to more extremist ways. She may of signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement with Garrett Fitzgerald which gave the South a greater say in the North but it has to be noted this is something she admitted regretting afterwards. Even though I didn't agree with the methods of republicanism, I did agree with their aim of a unified Ireland(a justified and legit aim IMO) but only through political means. But Thatcher's failure to acknowledge the history of the situation in the North and her policy of shooting down Nationalist opinion only further added to the troubles. She never really addressed the situation in a balanced way which compared differently to Tony Blair it has to be said. Through the Good Friday Agreement which he along with Bertie Ahern helped achieve, it acknowledged the right of the Northern Irish people to have the right to choose to remain a part of the Union or be a part of a unified Ireland. Under Thatcher this wouldn't of been even remotely possible as she was vehemently in favour of the Union staying through her limited mindset in all this.

Thanks for all this smmary. I've always had a soft spot for the Irish people and hope that Ireland once will be reunited. :)

Is it true that Maggie once suggested that all Catholics from Ulster be exiled to the South? One of my uni professors once told me !

Anyway another great song as a tribute to Bobby Sands is by the band Soldat Louis from Brittany: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr3JDEM-Y8Q

Chorus:
The songs from the streets of Belfast
have the same flavour of Ireland
They cry like the sky of Belfast
liked cried the eyes of Bobby Sands
liked cried my eyes for Bobby Sands

...

All songs from Northern Ireland
Recall an iron lady
who swore herself to see 'em dead
a Catholic passport "Good for Hell


Caruut said:
That all depends on why you do it. In my opinion Thatcher did what she did in order to preserve existing power structures in the world and the UK. By opening up the world to market forces you create socio-economic Darwinism. On a world scale, the largest countries keep their comparative advantage and are able to exploit economically inferior countries who struggle to industrialise in a purely market-based system.

On an individual scale, within societies, you see the same sort of effect. The children of the wealthiest receive the finest education, the best contacts and much more. Sure, some float to the top and some drop down to the bottom, but the general trend is undoubtedly one of conserving social class.

It might be a "liberal" policy, but when the resources to behave within a free system are influenced by the time before it was free and individuals have the power to distort that system, it can be conservative. It is my view that these policies were adopted to do aid social mobility but to destroy it.

I can't disagree with all this.

My only problem concerns what was going on before the "liberal revolution" (because for me it was a revolution). You seem to argue that conservatism is of necessity elitist and negative (or amoral?).
But in many countries the Welfare State was created by Conservatives (like in France with General de Gaulle or in Germany with Bismarck). In France, the liberal revolution was led by the left-wing government of President Mitterrand.

I agree on the destructive power of globalization but the solution against it is a strong state and maybe some sort of protectionism, which is usually associated with conservatism, some sort economic patriotism. Before the Maastricht Treaty (whose art. 63 states there can be no restriction on capital movement between a member state and a non-Euro country.), which was signed up by Maggie's successor John Major, a company could never move capitals outside the limits, without permission from the government.

Besides here on the continent there are many farmers and small craftsmen who would vote right-wing, despite the fact that they're in deep purple. Is that suicide?

del1962 said:
George Galloway now their is a complete loon. There a very few men I can't stand, and he is one of them.

I don't know much about him but he supports Assad. Enough reasons for me to like him.

LugHugger said:
Deeply hated but elected 3 times.

But I don't believe in democracy. So that's not how you'll convince me she was good.

Cobblestones said:
There were coal mines, steel mills, labor unions etc. in other European countries which were subject to the same economics realities. Was Thatcherism the only 'cure' or at least one of the better 'cures'? Of course not.

France 1983, left-wing President François Mitterrand (with communists in the government !!!) started the liberal revolution known as La Rigueur, with the end of wage indexation and the abolition of the Glass-Steagall Act equivalent among other despicable things. Then even the right-wingers were demonstrating in the streets !!
 
Mar 25, 2013
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Echoes said:
Thanks for all this smmary. I've always had a soft spot for the Irish people and hope that Ireland once will be reunited. :)

Is it true that Maggie once suggested that all Catholics from Ulster be exiled to the South? One of my uni professors once told me !

Yes she did. But not out of Ulster, Northern Ireland. Don't forget 3 counties in Ulster belong to the Republic.;) It is always used to rile me when Paisley used to refer to the term Ulster as if the whole territory was a recognised part of Northern Ireland. Furthermore on Thatcher she also talked about the possibility to change the border in the North and have a straight line drawn across separating it with the South so as to defend it better. Talk about ideas to make matters worse.
 
Number 1 in the Amazon music sales chart is....Ding **** the Witch is Dead by Judy Garland, and number 4 is the Ella Fitzgerald version of the same song.

Edit now thats a tough profanity filter.
 
Mar 12, 2010
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Amsterhammer said:
Bull****. Only a VVD supporter could have written this apologia for Thatcherism.

Zammo, many British left wingers, Private Eye readers, and other cynics, have referred to the Mail as the Daily Nazi for decades now. It is an unashamedly fawning supporter of everything that is right wing. Apropos....

The daily Mail
The daily Fail
The daily Heil

You take your choice..
 
Mar 12, 2010
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Swifty's Cakes said:
Number 1 in the Amazon music sales chart is....Ding **** the Witch is Dead by Judy Garland, and number 4 is the Ella Fitzgerald version of the same song.

Edit now thats a tough profanity filter.

Theres a campaign in the UK to get it to number 1.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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One Evil is gone. Too late BTW. Bt i am happy it´s over. Too feed a few riches, millions had to suffer. She pi$§ed on mankind...
 

ANCrider

BANNED
Mar 25, 2013
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Glenn_Wilson said:
How were they trolls? The trolls being up thread where a few posters show some support or respect to M.T.?

This post made by a admin? Unbelievable. :cool:

:

Come on. With your high post count you must have been here long enough to know that on this forum if you disagree with the point of view of a mod it's trolling ;)