The Official LANCE ARMSTRONG Thread 2010-2011

[Oldman]

Now you are beginning to contradict yourself, you said elsewhere that if Lance had rode more Giros, he would have won less Tours so by that logic if Lance had rode all the races like Merckx, maybe he would have been finished by 31 also.

For sure, Cuesta is not a big-name rider but he was never a big-name pro but thats irrelevant. If as you insist the talent of the top guys evolves, then surely the talent of everyone also evolves from top to bottom overall or is that somehow illogical. If everyone doesnt evolve equally, then its not really evolution.

Cuesta was a decent team worker almost 20 years ago and he still is today, he still was able to make Cervelos TDF team last year so his level hasnt decreased that much so if there were a huge evolution in talent, there is no way he should be near the Tour right.

Cannot believe I am even bothering with this idiocy.

I'll confer with you since CC's obtuse reasoning is getting stale. You've confirmed what we're seeing-strong, resilient riders can have longer careers without serious decline. We're right-there is no "evolution"; just confirmation of natural ability that has consistently trained properly.
I have a suspicion that riders like Cuesta have probably been relatively clean, as well. Part of the reason older riders are rare from earlier generations was the nuclear PED use that used to occur. Amphetemines combined with steroids wouldn't contribute to longevity; I'd guess since I'm not a doctor.

Obvious gains in equipment, positioning and reasonable race schedules can account for everything else.

 

[pmcg76]

I'll confer with you since CC's obtuse reasoning is getting stale. You've confirmed what we're seeing-strong, resilient riders can have longer careers without serious decline. We're right-there is no "evolution"; just confirmation of natural ability that has consistently trained properly.
I have a suspicion that riders like Cuesta have probably been relatively clean, as well. Part of the reason older riders are rare from earlier generations was the nuclear PED use that used to occur. Amphetemines combined with steroids wouldn't contribute to longevity; I'd guess since I'm not a doctor.

Obvious gains in equipment, positioning and reasonable race schedules can account for everything else.

Cuesta relatively clean!! Not sure about that, he was a good domestique at ONCE for a period and well...unfair perhaps.

I agree some riders have better longevity becaue they ride less races a la Lance. Regardless, its not a new phenomenon that came about because of evolution or only happens in current times!!! Raymond Poulidor, Joaquim Agostinho, Joop Zootomelk, Wladamiro Panizza, Francesco Moser, Gilbert Duclos-Lassalle all were still competing at the top level past 35 in the 70/80s. Zootomelk was World Champion at almost 38 and won Amstel Gold at 40. I am probably missing loads more as well.

Some riders just have better longevity than others, it varies from individual to individual, sometimes its a mental thing as well. I dont think there is some magical formula or evolution, there is just adaption as you and everybody else have stated many times.

 

[this_is_edie]

Cuesta relatively clean!! Not sure about that, he was a good domestique at ONCE for a period and well...unfair perhaps.

I agree some riders have better longevity becaue they ride less races a la Lance. Regardless, its not a new phenomenon that came about because of evolution or only happens in current times!!! Raymond Poulidor, Joaquim Agostinho, Joop Zootomelk, Wladamiro Panizza, Francesco Moser, Gilbert Duclos-Lassalle all were still competing at the top level past 35 in the 70/80s. Zootomelk was World Champion at almost 38 and won Amstel Gold at 40. I am probably missing loads more as well.

Some riders just have better longevity than others, it varies from individual to individual, sometimes its a mental thing as well. I dont think there is some magical formula or evolution, there is just adaption as you and everybody else have stated many times.

I think that the mental part can certainly be overlooked. The willingness to keep on suffering as one gets older sometimes disappears especially if life gets more comfortable, or when a family comes into play.

I think that longevity comes from a combination of many things: genetics, training, amount of racing, keeping healthy (ie no weird viruses), mental and on and on ... and heck that thing that cannot be mentioned in this forum.

Hard to say what is more important.

 

[Bicicleta]

Trek and LeMond just settled -
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/02/news/treklemond-lawsuit-settled_103631

 

[Carboncrank]

You must not have a degree in biophysics, nor do I. Your genetic potential is revealed very early.
The riders are described were presented in context: a power team event where all teammates contribute in unison. While Lance was described by some as egotistical; he learned to measure his efforts or get dropped. Of the two TTT teams he was on, LA was the third or fourth rider in perceived effort ability. He was included because he was a USA Cycling project rider, the others were credentialled riders that had won their way onto the team. The team's coach selections were often necessary so the coaching staff could represent their budget expenditures and justify future participation (jobs). The fact that, in each case; three of four riders were not residents of the USA Boulder camp betrayed both the lack of budget and coaching depth.
What happened to the other riders? Presented with the needle by the staff, they declined. It's a fact that has been discussed at length.

Your theory of "Evolution" plays better on faith and "intelligent design". Go with what you know.

Why are you pussy footing about when this was? I'm guessing 91 or 92.
He was a tri athlete who didn't even become a full time cyclist until 91.

I'm saying not knowing how long he'd been sick it's hard to say how much of his potential you were seeing. You certainly can't argue that illness does not hinder athletic performance.

Obviously you are implying that after cancer he discovered doping and that accounts for everything.

Actually your argument against my claims about improvements in athletes is far more "intelligent design" than mine is, but in your case god is a cyclist that plops down equally formed racers from time to time to replace the ones that wear out.

 

[ravens]

Mental?
Fan(boy)-Dabi-Dozi

Lost in transatlantic translation, most probably.

We weren't supposed to call someone *** when I was a kid. We had a *** cousin (doctor pinched her skull with forceps during childbirth) So we were allowed to refer to someone who was a little crazy and or dumb as mental. I think a lot of people use the term Mental, it could mean just about anything, it's more like spastic, like tourrettes or 'hyper'. Hyper is another word that could be used to describe anyone who was 'not 100%'.

 

[BroDeal]

I think its hilarious to see Carboncrank/Jackhammer111 attempt to maintain his calmness. You now that he is sitting there behind his computer just seething, just trying to keep everything under control like a volcano waiting to blow. But true nature always wins out in the end. It is only a matter of time before the lava dome cracks, the gases rush out, and he starts threatening to kill people like he did before.

 

[pmcg76]

Why are you pussy footing about when this was? I'm guessing 91 or 92.
He was a tri athlete who didn't even become a full time cyclist until 91.

I'm saying not knowing how long he'd been sick it's hard to say how much of his potential you were seeing. You certainly can't argue that illness does not hinder athletic performance.

Obviously you are implying that after cancer he discovered doping and that accounts for everything.

Actually your argument against my claims about improvements in athletes is far more "intelligent design" than mine is, but in your case god is a cyclist that plops down equally formed racers from time to time to replace the ones that wear out.

I think Lance switched full-time earlier than 91, he went to the worlds in 1990. As an amateur, Lance was fantastic, especially in one day races but Bobby Julich was probably a better stage racer regularly finishing ahead of Lance in the Tour du Pont, the biggest US stage race. Julich went a bit awry after the Oylmpics and took him years to get back on track but he had a top ten finish in a GT in 96 at the Vuelta. It was only in 99, that Lance surpassed Julcih as a stage racer. There were also better TTs than Lance, again it wasnt until 99 when Lance showed and sort of TT ability.

 

[Carboncrank]

I think that the mental part can certainly be overlooked. The willingness to keep on suffering as one gets older sometimes disappears especially if life gets more comfortable, or when a family comes into play.

I think that longevity comes from a combination of many things: genetics, training, amount of racing, keeping healthy (ie no weird viruses), mental and on and on ... and heck that thing that cannot be mentioned in this forum.

Hard to say what is more important.

There's plenty of evidence that in endurance sport the ability to suffer gets greater as you get older. Ask Iron man greats like Mark Allen or Dave Scott. Ask the current marathon world record holder who set it at 35, or the previous guy at 34 or Carlos Lopes who set it at age 38, cross country skiers, or Ben Hian who won the San Diego 100 mile race at age 40, or Tom Nielsen who won it at age 48. In fact, in that race in 2009 you have to go to 14th place to find someone less than 30.

 

[pmcg76]

There's plenty of evidence that in endurance sport the ability to suffer gets greater as you get older. Ask Iron man greats like Mark Allen or Dave Scott. Ask the current marathon world record holder who set it at 35, or the previous guy at 34 or Carlos Lopes who set it at age 38, cross country skiers, or Ben Hian who won the San Diego 100 mile race at age 40, or Tom Nielsen who won it at age 48. In fact, in that race in 2009 you have to go to 14th place to find someone less than 30.

And all those Africans who break record after record at 18-22, right.

 

[Carboncrank]

I think Lance switched full-time earlier than 91, he went to the worlds in 1990. As an amateur, Lance was fantastic, especially in one day races

You can think that, but you'd be wrong. He was national sprint-course triathlon champion 1990. I don't know what worlds you mean but he's not UCI Road World Champion until 93.

He won the US Amateur in 91, was in the Olympics in 92 and doesn't get his first pro contract until after that.

 

[Race Radio]

You can think that, but you'd be wrong. He was national sprint-course triathlon champion 1990. I don't know what worlds you mean but he's not UCI Road World Champion until 93.

He won the US Amateur in 91, was in the Olympics in 92 and doesn't get his first pro contract until after that.

Moscow U23 Worlds, 1990. Wonderboy attacks off the front at the start then attacks the break over and over. Burns his matches and dies.

 

[pmcg76]

You can think that, but you'd be wrong. He was national sprint-course triathlon champion 1990. I don't know what worlds you mean but he's not UCI Road World Champion until 93.

He won the US Amateur in 91, was in the Olympics in 92 and doesn't get his first pro contract until after that.

Please dont try to give me the history of Lance, he competed in the Amateur Worlds Cycling Championships in 1990 in Japan. I have the VHS at home, he went on the attack but eventually finished 16th or something. Mirko Gualdi won, Philipe Dowja was 3rd and Richard Virenque was 8th. Roberto Caruso was 2nd.

 

[Carboncrank]

And all those Africans who break record after record at 18-22, right.

You like to be a vague as you can don't you.

The five fastest marathons in history were run by guys over 30 at the time. None of the 10 fastest were in the age you suggest.

 

[pmcg76]

You like to be a vague as you can don't you.

The five fastest marathons in history were run by guys over 30 at the time. None of the 10 fastest were in the age you suggest.

Sorry, I thought the 10,000m and half marathons and worlds Cross-Country were endurance events. Maybe not, I guess. From following athletics, there seems to be a pattern for marathon runners, they compete in the shorter endurance events when they are younger but as they lose speed, they move to the marathon so naturally the top times are by the older guys as the younger guys are still running track, Haile Gebresilasse is the perfect example.

Anyway, the average age for a Tour winner is between 26-33 and what is your overall point. You just seem to be nitpicking for I dont know what. Endurance events are suited to older athletes and that proves what exactly. What is your point?

 

[Mellow Velo]

This crap is an endurance event.
Since Crank reckons he's 60, I'm surprised he isn't using his own posting stamina as proof of Lance's staying power.

There is plenty of evidence of old athletes abilty to suffer, because they are often made to suffer by younger athletes in their prime.

Lance may well have endurance, but what he needs is his old explosive speed.
That's gone forever.

 

[Carboncrank]

Please dont try to give me the history of Lance, he competed in the Amateur Worlds Cycling Championships in 1990 in Japan. I have the VHS at home, he went on the attack but eventually finished 16th or something. Mirko Gualdi won, Philipe Dowja was 3rd and Richard Virenque was 8th. Roberto Caruso was 2nd.

If you meant Amateur Worlds that's what you should have said. He finished 11th, the highest American.
He was 1990 US national amateur road race champion, you pompous smeghead.

I'm also finding out he was only 18 in that Colorado development team where all these guys you know brag about dropping him on the flats. He dropped out of his senior year to go there. I have no idea why you think that means anything.

 

[pmcg76]

If you meant Amateur Worlds that's what you should have said. He finished 11th, the highest American.
He was 1990 US national amateur road race champion, you pompous smeghead.

I'm also finding out he was only 18 in that Colorado development team where all these guys you know brag about dropping him on the flats. He dropped out of his senior year to go there. I have no idea why you think that means anything.

Good to see you spent your time googling, if you knew as much as you pretend, then you would have known what I was talking about straight away like Race Radio did. You now know he was US amateur champion but didnt put it in the first post when you mentioned he was US Sprint champion in 1990.

And it wasnt me who said anything about people dropping him on the flats in Colorado, that was somebody else. Try to direct the insults at the right people.

What was your point of relevance about older endurance athletes again?

 

[Race Radio]

Carboncrank knows what he is talking about when it comes to endurance sports.

His good buddy Joe Bagadoughnuts bowled 100 straight frames in the bowling league he plays in Tuesday nights. I think we can all agree that this feat of endurance has about as much to do with Professional Bike Racing as the sideshow freak shows that 100 mile running races are.

 

[Carboncrank]

. Endurance events are suited to older athletes and that proves what exactly. What is your point?

I'd say it the other way around, but that would be nitpicking.

Originally Posted by this_is_edie
I think that the mental part can certainly be overlooked. The willingness to keep on suffering as one gets older sometimes disappears especially....

I said I think this is wrong and showed my 8 x 10 glossy photos with pictures and arrows on the back of each one.

Then it became a discussion. No big deal.

 

[Carboncrank]

Good to see you spent your time googling, if you knew as much as you pretend, then you would have known what I was talking about straight away like Race Radio did. You now know he was US amateur champion but didnt put it in the first post when you mentioned he was US Sprint champion in 1990.

And it wasnt me who said anything about people dropping him on the flats in Colorado, that was somebody else. Try to direct the insults at the right people.

What was your point of relevance about older endurance athletes again?

Oh geezee. I never said he was "US sprint champion" in 1990. It was "sprint-course triathlon champion". He was US Amateur Champion in 91.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=143557#post143557

I do apologize for making a jab at you when you weren't the right guy. I'm sorry.

 

[pmcg76]

I'd say it the other way around, but that would be nitpicking.



I said I think this is wrong and showed my 8 x 10 glossy photos with pictures and arrows on the back of each one.

Then it became a discussion. No big deal.

I thought it was to do with evolution.

I think the original post by Edie was making the point that the mental aspect is overlooked because it depends if athletes have the mental focus to continue.

I think its a combination and loss of speed so endurance events are perfect.

Mighty impressive googling skills though.

 

[pmcg76]

Oh geezee. I never said he was "US sprint champion" in 1990. It was "sprint-course triathlon champion". He was US Amateur Champion in 91.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=143557#post143557

I do apologize for making a jab at you when you weren't the right guy. I'm sorry.

No I understood what you meant, I know a sprint is a sprint triathlon i.e the shortest distance triathlon. I got confused when you then said he was also US Amateur cycling champion the same year as you earlier said it was 91 which is correct, it took place in Utah I think. He was 2nd in the US amateur crit same year behind team-mate Jonas Carney.

Apology accepted, as you are fighting everyone, hard to keep track, eh?

 

[BroDeal]

I think we can all agree that this feat of endurance has about as much to do with Professional Bike Racing as the sideshow freak shows that 100 mile running races are.

Hey! I resemble that remark. Hundred mile runs are a way to experience whole new worlds of suffering that you will never find on a bike.

 

[Carboncrank]

Hey! I resemble that remark. Hundred mile runs are a way to experience whole new worlds of suffering that you will never find on a bike.

I think Grand Tours are kinda like doing endurance events over and over again for three weeks.

It's high up on my list of "craziest things humans do", along with landing an airplane on a carrier at night or flying old style pylon races in souped up WWII fighters.