The pedaling technique thread

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Re:

JayKosta said:
True, there hasn't been any recent (that I could find) new 'scientific' info about pedal technique.
There ARE several businesses / coaches who are claiming to use power meters as a way to improve pedal technique.
A recent example is this -
http://minturnfitnesscenter.com/wp-content/uploads/Power-Stroke-flyer-final-1.pdf

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Which reminds me of the old phrase often attributed to PT Barnum "There's a sucker born every minute".
They have a huge investment in their Wattbike Pro and now need to recoup it.

Hugh
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Re:

JayKosta said:
True, there hasn't been any recent (that I could find) new 'scientific' info about pedal technique.
There ARE several businesses / coaches who are claiming to use power meters as a way to improve pedal technique.
A recent example is this -
http://minturnfitnesscenter.com/wp-content/uploads/Power-Stroke-flyer-final-1.pdf

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Like Hugh said.

Nothing new in pedalling technique and nothing new in people claiming to be coaches trotting out gimmicks when they lack a real process to improve riders performances.
 
Jun 1, 2014
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
PhitBoy said:
Thanks for being so honest. I suspect that your educational background is really at the heart of the debate/disconnect throughout this topic.
Several of those of us who are arguing with you have advanced degrees. While that may sound pretentious I'm not saying we have superior knowledge just because of letters behind our name. However, with advanced training comes an understanding of what we do know and what we don't know. Your posts suggest that you don't understand the difference between what you "know" and what you believe. We are presenting research based facts and you responding with your beliefs. Kinda like an atheist arguing with a religious person; the debate goes nowhere.
I get it now.
And that's as far as it goes, because pedalling technique cannot be improved if you don't know what your objectives are. This is not helped by the fact that physiologists do not know what the bodies muscles are capable of doing.
If you haven't studied physiology, or biomechanics, at an advanced level, and performed research where you have to measure these things on a daily basis, worked with other sport scientists, whose aims are to improve cycling, not to just document what is happening currently then I suspect it is you who has little understanding of the concept Noel.
You are forgetting this statement in one of your earlier posts.


CoachFergie wrote:
Youtube clips from WCSS in Leeds. Most of the main presentations...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekhd7YHlOQg

Check out the video on pedalling. Over 500 studies on the subject of how we pedal and yet not one makes a valid suggestion on how to improve this better than how we naturally pedal!
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
Fixed the formatting for you...and added the rest of the original quote.

Now, what are you trying to say with this old quote about a cycling conference? And why do you feel the need to bring this back to the top of the threads after a month or two off, typically with a very old post as the focus?
 
Re: Re:

CoachFergie said:
JayKosta said:
True, there hasn't been any recent (that I could find) new 'scientific' info about pedal technique.
There ARE several businesses / coaches who are claiming to use power meters as a way to improve pedal technique.
A recent example is this -
http://minturnfitnesscenter.com/wp-content/uploads/Power-Stroke-flyer-final-1.pdf

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Like Hugh said.

Nothing new in pedalling technique and nothing new in people claiming to be coaches trotting out gimmicks when they lack a real process to improve riders performances.
As I keep reminding people the Wattbike, like many other devices, can only report the net power / forces /torque around a pedal stroke and not what is going on with each pedal/crank/leg. This is because it measures the forces downstream of the bottom bracket (at the internal drive chain in case of the WB), and does not measure each crank independently.

That means e.g. the Wattbike cannot distinguish between the following instantaneous relative bilateral torque readings:
100% Right, 0% Left
110% Right, -10% Left
90% Right, 10% Left.

All it can report is the net result of 100% from both cranks combined.

and yet I everyone would agree that each represents quite a difference in how the torque is being produced.

Oh, and BTW, even with such information, none of it suggests one of those alternatives is necessarily superior to the other.
 
Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
-------------------
I'm guessing that you're referring to the article about non-circular chainrings for sprinting -
http://www.jssm.org/abstresearchajssm-15-223.xml.xml

Yes that might be meaningful - but the testing was done specifically for max-effort sprints of 8 second duration.

Is there another article you thought gave 'new information'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
After reading through the whole list I wondered if perhaps it was the "Accuracy and Reliability of a New Tennis Ball Machine" that Noel was referring to;)

Hugh
 
Jun 18, 2015
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Re: Re:

Interestingly, we will have a paper coming out soon showing no effect at all. Here is a popular press article based on the PhD dissertation work.
http://trstriathlon.com/elliptical-chain-rings-dont-work-because-you-wont-let-them/
Cheers,
Jim




JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
-------------------
I'm guessing that you're referring to the article about non-circular chainrings for sprinting -
http://www.jssm.org/abstresearchajssm-15-223.xml.xml

Yes that might be meaningful - but the testing was done specifically for max-effort sprints of 8 second duration.

Is there another article you thought gave 'new information'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Re: Re:

PhitBoy said:
Interestingly, we will have a paper coming out soon showing no effect at all. Here is a popular press article based on the PhD dissertation work.
http://trstriathlon.com/elliptical-chain-rings-dont-work-because-you-wont-let-them/
Cheers,
Jim




JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
-------------------
I'm guessing that you're referring to the article about non-circular chainrings for sprinting -
http://www.jssm.org/abstresearchajssm-15-223.xml.xml

Yes that might be meaningful - but the testing was done specifically for max-effort sprints of 8 second duration.

Is there another article you thought gave 'new information'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
" For as many answers as Leong has found, there are also new questions. A big one is why exactly our legs adapt. The fact that we’re still making discoveries about the relationship between something as simple as a mechanical gearing system and something as intuitive as the human leg means that we don’t know as much as we thought we did. Leong is excited about potential future discoveries."

While I have never used the rotor crank or non circular chain rings I can see one possible explanation as to why they do not improve performance. You should not have to wait for the legs to adapt, the muscles should be working ahead of these chain rings or the rotor crank, and this can only be done by giving the brain precise details of what is required from the muscles as the cranks speed up and slow down. As with Anquetil's technique this would take total concentration instead of pedalling unconsciously.
 
Re: Re:

PhitBoy said:
Interestingly, we will have a paper coming out soon showing no effect at all. Here is a popular press article based on the PhD dissertation work.
http://trstriathlon.com/elliptical-chain-rings-dont-work-because-you-wont-let-them/
Cheers,
Jim
...
------------------
Thanks for the link to the TrsTriahlon article - I'll be interested seeing the full-text version.
From the wording in the Trs article, it seemed to imply that there might be a 'pedaling technique' for elliptical chainrings that would give better (maybe just different?) results than with round chainrings.
But that the test subjects were not instructed or trained how to perform the technique. Or perhaps that the subjects resisted using a new technique and pedalled in a manner that 'felt the same' as their usual method.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Re:

CheckMyPecs said:
At what gradients do you guys usually start to stand up on your pedals?
----
My standing has always been low efficiency, so I only stand when unable to continue pedalling seated. And the usual 'cause' for needing to stand is lack of a low enough gear.
If I need to stand for more than about 100 yards, I quickly convert to a pedestrian ....

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Mar 14, 2016
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Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
CheckMyPecs said:
At what gradients do you guys usually start to stand up on your pedals?
----
My standing has always been low efficiency, so I only stand when unable to continue pedalling seated. And the usual 'cause' for needing to stand is lack of a low enough gear.
If I need to stand for more than about 100 yards, I quickly convert to a pedestrian ....

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Good to know. :)

When the road gets really steep, I stay seated, spinning low gears at a fast cadence. I only stand up when I feel my muscles are getting "cramped" and I want to stretch them for a few seconds.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Re: Re:

CoachFergie said:
As with Anquetil's technique this would take total concentration instead of pedalling unconsciously.
Speculation. Evidence please.
Quoting from Hinault's book, " You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him"
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
Quoting from Hinault's book, " You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him"
----------------------------
Perhaps true - If Anquetil's technique did require motions and timing that were different from his 'natural style', then he probably would practice that technique in TRAINING with very high concentration. With the goal that the technique would become habitual so he could successfully use it in race situations with less concentration.

But a critical question is whether that technique itself actually does produce 'better results', or if it is just different.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
Quoting from Hinault's book, " You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him"
----------------------------
Perhaps true - If Anquetil's technique did require motions and timing that were different from his 'natural style', then he probably would practice that technique in TRAINING with very high concentration. With the goal that the technique would become habitual so he could successfully use it in race situations with less concentration.

But a critical question is whether that technique itself actually does produce 'better results', or if it is just different.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
When using his technique with continuous high gear max force application to each crank in turn you need a clear road ahead. Concentration is necessary for the simultaneous switching of max force application from one leg to the other. This means it cannot be used in road races except when riding at the front or off the back but it is ideal for flat TT's. When you can greatly increase torque from each pedal stroke without increasing peak force to the pedal it has to be a more powerful and more sustainable way to pedal in time trials.
From J Bobet who studied this pedalling both as a rider and later as a journalist, " I am fascinated by mathematics and physics, Anquetil was perfection at continuous motion, his system was totally adapted to it, although he could not support interruptions to his efforts."
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
Quoting from Hinault's book, " You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him"
----------------------------
Perhaps true - If Anquetil's technique did require motions and timing that were different from his 'natural style', then he probably would practice that technique in TRAINING with very high concentration. With the goal that the technique would become habitual so he could successfully use it in race situations with less concentration.

But a critical question is whether that technique itself actually does produce 'better results', or if it is just different.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
The biomechanics of Anquetil's TT pedalling are somewhat like the Rotor crank idea, speeding up takes place during the recovery stroke and slowing down during the power stroke but unlike the Rotor crank where this takes place in the equipment, with Anquetil's method it takes place in the muscles and this makes possible the simultaneous switchover of max force application. Concentration is required for the preparation of the power muscles before pedal reaches 11 o'c. But first you need to learn the simple knack of how to apply max torque at TDC.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
The biomechanics of Anquetil's TT pedalling are somewhat like the Rotor crank idea,
...
--------------------------
If Anquetil's TT technique was similar to using ROTOR (or other oval) chainrings, then the article mentioned earlier -
http://trstriathlon.com/elliptical-chain-rings-dont-work-because-you-wont-let-them/
might provide an explanation about why it's use has not 'caught-on' as a mainstream method.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
One of the advantages claimed by the Rotor Crank inventor was that it gave extra pedalling time per hour of pedalling, the problem with this was that extra time occurred in part of the dead spot sector where minimal if any torque could be applied. Anquetil's pedalling gives more than 5 times more extra pedaling time than the Rotor Crank and it occurs where (with his technique) almost maximal torque can be applied. I am referring to the 'Rotor Crank' not the Rotor or any other type of non round chainring.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Re: Re:

backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
The biomechanics of Anquetil's TT pedalling are somewhat like the Rotor crank idea,
...
--------------------------
If Anquetil's TT technique was similar to using ROTOR (or other oval) chainrings, then the article mentioned earlier -
http://trstriathlon.com/elliptical-chain-rings-dont-work-because-you-wont-let-them/
might provide an explanation about why it's use has not 'caught-on' as a mainstream method.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
One of the advantages claimed by the Rotor Crank inventor was that it gave extra pedalling time per hour of pedalling, the problem with this was that extra time occurred in part of the dead spot sector where minimal if any torque could be applied. Anquetil's pedalling gives more than 5 times more extra pedaling time than the Rotor Crank and it occurs where (with his technique) almost maximal torque can be applied. I am referring to the 'Rotor Crank' not the Rotor or any other type of non round chainring.
5 x more! Very specific statement!! So you must have some data to support that very specific claim!!!
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
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Re: Re:

CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
The biomechanics of Anquetil's TT pedalling are somewhat like the Rotor crank idea,
...
--------------------------
If Anquetil's TT technique was similar to using ROTOR (or other oval) chainrings, then the article mentioned earlier -
http://trstriathlon.com/elliptical-chain-rings-dont-work-because-you-wont-let-them/
might provide an explanation about why it's use has not 'caught-on' as a mainstream method.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
One of the advantages claimed by the Rotor Crank inventor was that it gave extra pedalling time per hour of pedalling, the problem with this was that extra time occurred in part of the dead spot sector where minimal if any torque could be applied. Anquetil's pedalling gives more than 5 times more extra pedaling time than the Rotor Crank and it occurs where (with his technique) almost maximal torque can be applied. I am referring to the 'Rotor Crank' not the Rotor or any other type of non round chainring.
5 x more! Very specific statement!! So you must have some data to support that very specific claim!!!
Yes, each leg's pedalling power stroke gets an extra 60 degrees (entire dead spot sector where your leg muscles are effectively idling) of almost maximal torque application. Rotor cranks could give you an extra 10-12 degrees of minimal torque application and that was only if you got the timing of your muscle action correct.
 

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