The pedaling technique thread

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

researchers problem is, they don't know the difference between pulling up and unweighting.

They know an awful lot more than you do.

True, but pedalling technique has not changed since the invention of the bicycle, whose fault is that ?

and perhaps that's because competitive cyclists pretty much automatically optimize their technique over the course of competing for a very few years without outside intervention. This seems to be the case with runners. Is the cycling motion more complex?

Hugh

Isn't it the case in almost all sports? Even ones where movement is restricted (like cycling) and style and form are important (cricket, golf, tennis, snooker) natural technique and movement is always cited as to why particular athletes excel. Seems logical that the same would go for cycling.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

...
Isn't it the case in almost all sports? Even ones where movement is restricted (like cycling) and style and form are important (cricket, golf, tennis, snooker) natural technique and movement is always cited as to why particular athletes excel. Seems logical that the same would go for cycling.

---------------------------------------------
I think that what is typically mentioned is that an athlete has exceptional 'natural ability' to perform the movements with great speed / power / control / precision / etc. And that the athlete has honed the 'natural ability' to achieve great actual performance.
It's not simply that a 'natural' technique or movement is being done, but that it is being done so much BETTER than most other people can.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

...
Isn't it the case in almost all sports? Even ones where movement is restricted (like cycling) and style and form are important (cricket, golf, tennis, snooker) natural technique and movement is always cited as to why particular athletes excel. Seems logical that the same would go for cycling.

---------------------------------------------
I think that what is typically mentioned is that an athlete has exceptional 'natural ability' to perform the movements with great speed / power / control / precision / etc. And that the athlete has honed the 'natural ability' to achieve great actual performance.
It's not simply that a 'natural' technique or movement is being done, but that it is being done so much BETTER than most other people can.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Yes, that's what I said.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

[quote="
...
Yes, that's what I said.[/quote]
------------------------------
I thought you were saying that SIMPLY using 'natural techinque and movement' by itself was sufficient to achieve great results.
Many of us use our own version of natural technique and movement ...
Having natural ability, good training, and also using good technique is what produces results.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

researchers problem is, they don't know the difference between pulling up and unweighting.

They know an awful lot more than you do.

True, but pedalling technique has not changed since the invention of the bicycle, whose fault is that ?

Why is this a "fault"? You're trying to fix something that's not broken.

 

[CoachFergie]

That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.

 

[backdoor]

Re:

That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.

If Berend, yourself and all other experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: Re:

That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.

If Berend, yourself and all other experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.

If the problem existed it could be easily measured and if a better method was available this could be easily measured.

Present data rather than your opinion!

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.

If Berend, yourself and all other experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.

I think you're trying to appeal to my common sense.

That's a mistake. I ignore my own common sense routinely, on purpose. It's full of bad advice.

You should try to appeal to my analytical sense if you want to convince me.

 

[PhitBoy]

Basic physics / biomechanics

experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.

Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.

Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!

Yay Science, thanks Teach!!!

 

[CoachFergie]

Another study on one legged pedalling V assisted pedalling to measure joint forces. Seems these claims made by some are actually very easy to test. You wonder why they cower away from doing so!

http://journals.humankinetics.com/jsr-current-issue/jsr-volume-25-issue-1-february/joint-torques-and-patellofemoral-force-during-single-leg-assisted-and-unassisted-cycling

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

...
Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
...

-------------------------------
Yes, reasonable explanation, but I needed a little extra concentration to understand the different concepts of -
Rotational rate of the crank (it's angular velocity?), which stays nearly constant during each full rotation.
and
Angular velocity of the knee and hip joints (which does change significantly during a full crank rotation) and which directly affects the amount of torque being produced in each section of a full crank rotation.

Even though the foot and pedal continue to move at a nearly constant rate during a rotation, the amount of torque being produced in each section varies widely. Positive torque (other than from rotational momentum) is produced only when a force on the pedal attempts to maintain or increase the rotational rate of the crank.

p.s. I'm just 'nit-picking' at the detail-level wording, NOT at the basic concepts.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[backdoor]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.

Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!

Completely different biomechanics were used by Anquetil for TT's. Yes there is zero power for an instant, that's why I always refer to the dead spot sector (60deg) and not the dead spot. Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.

Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!

Completely different biomechanics were used by Anquetil for TT's. Yes there is zero power for an instant, that's why I always refer to the dead spot sector (60deg) and not the dead spot. Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.

PS: As I see it, the hip is used to apply maximal forward torque, the thigh is used to apply downward torque.

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.

Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!

Completely different biomechanics were used by Anquetil for TT's. Yes there is zero power for an instant, that's why I always refer to the dead spot sector (60deg) and not the dead spot. Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.

And your evidence for this is???

 

[PhitBoy]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

All I can say is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1n5CQe1krI

Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.

 

[CoachFergie]

Or....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

 

[backdoor]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.

Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!

Completely different biomechanics were used by Anquetil for TT's. Yes there is zero power for an instant, that's why I always refer to the dead spot sector (60deg) and not the dead spot. Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.

And your evidence for this is???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

The Perfect Technique

 

[backdoor]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

All I can say is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1n5CQe1krI

Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.

There is only so much power a rider's downstroke muscles are capable of producing and changing the shape of the chain ring or crank is not going to alter that fact. The dead spot sector can only be eliminated by a complete change of technique. " A good workman never blames his tools"
http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/editorials/0000091.shtml

 

[PhitBoy]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

The Perfect Technique

Well, there you have it, proof positive.
Just out of curiosity Noel, what is your educational and professional background?

 

[backdoor]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

The Perfect Technique

Well, there you have it, proof positive.
Just out of curiosity Noel, what is your educational and professional background?

Nothing more than basic secondary education, no professional background.

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

The Perfect Technique

I asked for evidence Noel. A video is evidence of nothing.

 

[sciguy]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

The Perfect Technique

I asked for evidence Noel. A video is evidence of nothing.

Well it's evidence that Jacque had really great hair and was somewhat of a toe pointer
In regards to how he was applying power .............well not so much.

Hugh

 

[backdoor]

Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

The Perfect Technique

I asked for evidence Noel. A video is evidence of nothing.

Well it's evidence that Jacque had really great hair and was somewhat of a toe pointer
In regards to how he was applying power .............well not so much.

Hugh

Yes much better hair than I ever had and as regards the power application it reveals absolutely nothing, that's what made it so valuable throughout all his TT years. I discovered this powerful technique about three years before a video of his pedalling first appeared on PC's in 2001 and as soon as I saw it I knew I had the answer to his mysterious extra power in time trials. As I asked you before, can you tell from this video where he is starting his power stroke.