The pedaling technique thread

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

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Yes, I have searched. That's the reason for reading this thread.
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Reading this thread will certainly give you an idea of what various people think about possible performance improvements by changes to pedaling technique. And will also give some personal observations about what changes have made an improvement for them.

What seems to be the most prevalent thought (from my viewpoint anyway) is that experienced cyclists usually develop a technique that is quite effective without any extensive training or coaching. AND that overall performance improvements can be made by addressing more obvious issues than 'pedaling technique' - e.g. nutrition, riding position, training methods, etc.

To me, any possible improvement due to pedaling technique seem to be small, and would be most useful to competitive cyclists who have already achieved maximum improvement using more traditional means.

A 'problem' with trying to change and test 'pedaling technique' is that (again, my opinion) such changes require long duration usage of the technique in order to develop the muscle strength and endurance used in the new technique. Many research projects just can't devote enough time. Also even if such research was done there would still be the question of whether the change was 'due to the technique' or 'happened to occur in the long time period of the research'.

I'm hoping that tests of pedaling technique using 2nd generation power meters will show whether the technique of highest-ranked competitors is different than that of those who are slightly less successful.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000647.html

In both legs some of the leg weight will always be on the saddle, it's all about balance, when you unweight you create a resistance free path for the rising pedal and double the effective leg weight gravity effect of the other leg. When unweighting out of the saddle, apart from transferring that extra body weight for increased downward force, you are cutting off that wasted downward force to the ground that increases rolling resistance and getting an earlier start to the other leg's down stroke. As speed increases the idling leg will have to be accelerated upwards at a faster pace if you don't unweight. Once you have the knack, there should be no difficulty in or out of the saddle. What I find interesting is I can't find a published study on unweighting.

Please use consistent vocabulary. I'll give you some examples of where your terminology causes confusion. This may be why you feel everyone wants additional explanations.

"double the effective leg weight gravity effect". means "effective leg" or "effective weight"? (English is ambiguous that way) "gravity effect" is just "gravity". "weight gravity effect" is just "weight".

Physics won't let you use weight to power your bicycle for very long unless you're on a downhill. You can do it for half a crank rotation, or one stroke. Then physics demands that you expend energy (burn calories) to get the weight back up to gain potential energy before you can do it again. This isn't going to change with some pedalling technique.

It's not done to save energy, it's done to reduce the workload on your pressing down muscles by making use of the most natural muscle action in the world. When you know how to apply max torque through TDC, for the same power output you can reduce the workload on your pressing down muscles by over 50%.

I would assume the most natural action would be the walking action. Most of the work there is done with the legs almost straight and pulling back. So the most natural action would be to pull back at the bottom of the pedal stroke. No work is done TDC.

The second most natural action would be running, which for humans is fairly upright. There's a fair bit of discussion about running technique that shows up in running forums. Mostly this is around pronate/suponate and maximalist/minimalist shoes. Any discussion around changing pedalling technique to match this technique is doomed to failure until this technique is bedded down. A lot of this is for injure prevention, rather than efficiency.

The most efficient long distance running technique (excluding leg/foot motion) is to accelerate as little as possible. Both forward, and up/down. Don't brake when your foot lands. On a bicycle this is somewhat mitigated because you've usually got a freewheel that nullifies any drawback of the braking action.

The third most natural action would be running (sprinting) which is more bent over, and climbing, both of which are much closer to the pressing down muscles.

Or are you talking of a different natural action?

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

Physics won't let you use weight to power your bicycle for very long unless you're on a downhill. You can do it for half a crank rotation, or one stroke. Then physics demands that you expend energy (burn calories) to get the weight back up to gain potential energy before you can do it again. This isn't going to change with some pedalling technique.

It's not done to save energy, it's done to reduce the workload on your pressing down muscles by making use of the most natural muscle action in the world. When you know how to apply max torque through TDC, for the same power output you can reduce the workload on your pressing down muscles by over 50%.

I would assume the most natural action would be the walking action. Most of the work there is done with the legs almost straight and pulling back. So the most natural action would be to pull back at the bottom of the pedal stroke. No work is done TDC.

Yes walking, you raise your knee and the momentum of the lower leg/foot will take the foot back and up in keeping with the track of the pedal. No pulling back and no work is done TDC. That applies to natural pedalling where the leg's power stroke starts at 1 o' c. With Anquetil's pedalling where the power stroke starts at 11, slight drawing back of foot at 5 and raising of knee is used. Maximal torque is applied at TDC.

 

[sciguy]

Re: Re:

With Anquetil's pedalling where the power stroke starts at 11, slight drawing back of foot at 5 and raising of knee is used. Maximal torque is applied at TDC.

Noel,

How do you know Anquetil applied force in this manner? I've watched your video links a number of times and just "see" a guy who prefers to pedal quite toe down. IMO nothing more nothing less can be inferred from the videos.

Hugh

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

With Anquetil's pedalling where the power stroke starts at 11, slight drawing back of foot at 5 and raising of knee is used. Maximal torque is applied at TDC.

Noel,

How do you know Anquetil applied force in this manner? I've watched your video links a number of times and just "see" a guy who prefers to pedal quite toe down. IMO nothing more nothing less can be inferred from the videos.

Hugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

There can only be two most powerful pedalling techniques and it so happens that mashing is best for road racing and the other powerful semi circular technique is best for flat time trials, because having the ability to extend that 60 deg. max power sector over 150 deg. makes it more sustainable power. Anquetil was noted for his mysterious extra pedal power in time trials. In above video during the last 50 yds., can you say where he is starting his power stroke (which a masher starts at 1 o' c) and why are his arms under so much tension.

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: Re:

With Anquetil's pedalling where the power stroke starts at 11, slight drawing back of foot at 5 and raising of knee is used. Maximal torque is applied at TDC.

Noel,

How do you know Anquetil applied force in this manner? I've watched your video links a number of times and just "see" a guy who prefers to pedal quite toe down. IMO nothing more nothing less can be inferred from the videos.

Hugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

There can only be two most powerful pedalling techniques and it so happens that mashing is best for road racing and the other powerful semi circular technique is best for flat time trials, because having the ability to extend that 60 deg. max power sector over 150 deg. makes it more sustainable power. Anquetil was noted for his mysterious extra pedal power in time trials. In above video during the last 50 yds., can you say where he is starting his power stroke (which a masher starts at 1 o' c) and why are his arms under so much tension.

Calling BS, again, on that. To claim extra power assumes that it was measured. Without data it is just an opinion.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

...
In above video during the last 50 yds., can you say where he is starting his power stroke (which a masher starts at 1 o' c) and why are his arms under so much tension.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you have an idea why he didn't use the 'last 50 yds' technique earlier and for a longer distance?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

...
In above video during the last 50 yds., can you say where he is starting his power stroke (which a masher starts at 1 o' c) and why are his arms under so much tension.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you have an idea why he didn't use the 'last 50 yds' technique earlier and for a longer distance?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Probably no need but he is still using the semi circular (no dead spot sector) technique before the finishing straight, he didn't believe in doing any more than what was necessary for success. His attitude was, why waste energy to win by minutes when one second was sufficient for victory.

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

With Anquetil's pedalling where the power stroke starts at 11, slight drawing back of foot at 5 and raising of knee is used. Maximal torque is applied at TDC.

Noel,

How do you know Anquetil applied force in this manner? I've watched your video links a number of times and just "see" a guy who prefers to pedal quite toe down. IMO nothing more nothing less can be inferred from the videos.

Hugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

There can only be two most powerful pedalling techniques and it so happens that mashing is best for road racing and the other powerful semi circular technique is best for flat time trials, because having the ability to extend that 60 deg. max power sector over 150 deg. makes it more sustainable power. Anquetil was noted for his mysterious extra pedal power in time trials. In above video during the last 50 yds., can you say where he is starting his power stroke (which a masher starts at 1 o' c) and why are his arms under so much tension.

He could be doing a seated sprint, or emptying the tanks at the end of a TT. Over the last 50 yds you can happily go anaerobic.

You have no idea if Anquetil was good because or despite his on-bike technique.

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

...
In above video during the last 50 yds., can you say where he is starting his power stroke (which a masher starts at 1 o' c) and why are his arms under so much tension.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you have an idea why he didn't use the 'last 50 yds' technique earlier and for a longer distance?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Probably no need but he is still using the semi circular (no dead spot sector) technique before the finishing straight, he didn't believe in doing any more than what was necessary for success. His attitude was, why waste energy to win by minutes when one second was sufficient for victory.

This is a common road cycling technique. Always do the least amount of work you possibly can. Only exert yourself once, do the maximum then, and make it count. This is what wins races.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

...
In above video during the last 50 yds., can you say where he is starting his power stroke (which a masher starts at 1 o' c) and why are his arms under so much tension.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you have an idea why he didn't use the 'last 50 yds' technique earlier and for a longer distance?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Probably no need but he is still using the semi circular (no dead spot sector) technique before the finishing straight, he didn't believe in doing any more than what was necessary for success. His attitude was, why waste energy to win by minutes when one second was sufficient for victory.

This is a common road cycling technique. Always do the least amount of work you possibly can. Only exert yourself once, do the maximum then, and make it count. This is what wins races.

That's how you ride time trials ?

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

With Anquetil's pedalling where the power stroke starts at 11, slight drawing back of foot at 5 and raising of knee is used. Maximal torque is applied at TDC.

Noel,

How do you know Anquetil applied force in this manner? I've watched your video links a number of times and just "see" a guy who prefers to pedal quite toe down. IMO nothing more nothing less can be inferred from the videos.

Hugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

There can only be two most powerful pedalling techniques and it so happens that mashing is best for road racing and the other powerful semi circular technique is best for flat time trials, because having the ability to extend that 60 deg. max power sector over 150 deg. makes it more sustainable power. Anquetil was noted for his mysterious extra pedal power in time trials. In above video during the last 50 yds., can you say where he is starting his power stroke (which a masher starts at 1 o' c) and why are his arms under so much tension.

Calling BS, again, on that. To claim extra power assumes that it was measured. Without data it is just an opinion.

Another published peer reviewed study on pedalling technique to add to that 500+.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02640414.2015.1127987

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

With Anquetil's pedalling where the power stroke starts at 11, slight drawing back of foot at 5 and raising of knee is used. Maximal torque is applied at TDC.

Noel,

How do you know Anquetil applied force in this manner? I've watched your video links a number of times and just "see" a guy who prefers to pedal quite toe down. IMO nothing more nothing less can be inferred from the videos.

Hugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

There can only be two most powerful pedalling techniques and it so happens that mashing is best for road racing and the other powerful semi circular technique is best for flat time trials, because having the ability to extend that 60 deg. max power sector over 150 deg. makes it more sustainable power. Anquetil was noted for his mysterious extra pedal power in time trials. In above video during the last 50 yds., can you say where he is starting his power stroke (which a masher starts at 1 o' c) and why are his arms under so much tension.

Calling BS, again, on that. To claim extra power assumes that it was measured. Without data it is just an opinion.

Another published peer reviewed study on pedalling technique to add to that 500+.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02640414.2015.1127987

https://sites.google.com/a/mpstraining.com/services/don-s-blog/pedalingincircles

 

[CoachFergie]

While some add noise to the debate Dr Jim Martin and his team add valuable data...

http://journals.humankinetics.com/jab-current-issue/jab-volume-32-issue-1-february/biomechanics-of-counterweighted-one-legged-cycling

 

[JayKosta]

Interesting abstract - I'll try to locate a full copy of the article.
I wonder what

"These results, along with previous work highlighting physiological characteristics and training adaptations to counterweighted one-legged cycling, demonstrate that this exercise is a viable alternative to one-legged cycling"

is intended to mean. The choice of the term 'a viable alternative' seems alot like it's 'another option' rather that implying 'a better way'.
I wonder if that precise word choice was intentional to NOT imply a claim of it being a superior exercise.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[backdoor]

Re:

While some add noise to the debate Dr Jim Martin and his team add valuable data...

http://journals.humankinetics.com/jab-current-issue/jab-volume-32-issue-1-february/biomechanics-of-counterweighted-one-legged-cycling

What makes it valuable, once again the importance of unweighting is overlooked.

" Biomechanics of onelegged cycling are unnatural because the individual must actively lift the leg during flexion, "

 

[CoachFergie]

Good to see you still don't get it Noel. Puts all your previous comments in context.

 

[backdoor]

Re:

Good to see you still don't get it Noel. Puts all your previous comments in context.

That's why I am asking you to state or explain what it is I don't get.

 

[JayKosta]

Has anyone read the FULL article, the libraries near me don't subscribe to JAB (Journal of Applied Biomechanics).
Without having read the entire article, it's difficult (impossible?) to know if the actual findings are reflected in the abstract - much less whether the article addresses the topic of unweighting.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[King Boonen]

I'm surprised that we also don't subscribe to it, so nope, not read it.

 

[CoachFergie]

Re:

Interesting abstract - I'll try to locate a full copy of the article.
I wonder what

"These results, along with previous work highlighting physiological characteristics and training adaptations to counterweighted one-legged cycling, demonstrate that this exercise is a viable alternative to one-legged cycling"

is intended to mean. The choice of the term 'a viable alternative' seems alot like it's 'another option' rather that implying 'a better way'.
I wonder if that precise word choice was intentional to NOT imply a claim of it being a superior exercise.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Counterweighted pedalling a viable alternative to one legged pedalling when one can't ride with both legs.

Haven't read the full paper yet.

 

[backdoor]

Re:

Good to see you still don't get it Noel. Puts all your previous comments in context.

What's unnatural about lifting the leg, one does it every time they walk or run, researchers problem is, they don't know the difference between pulling up and unweighting.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

researchers problem is, they don't know the difference between pulling up and unweighting.

They know an awful lot more than you do.

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

researchers problem is, they don't know the difference between pulling up and unweighting.

They know an awful lot more than you do.

True, but pedalling technique has not changed since the invention of the bicycle, whose fault is that ?

 

[sciguy]

Re: Re:

researchers problem is, they don't know the difference between pulling up and unweighting.

They know an awful lot more than you do.

True, but pedalling technique has not changed since the invention of the bicycle, whose fault is that ?

and perhaps that's because competitive cyclists pretty much automatically optimize their technique over the course of competing for a very few years without outside intervention. This seems to be the case with runners. Is the cycling motion more complex?

Hugh