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Thanks!
Noel,
I'm working to get you "hooked up with" a Verve Infocrank dealer in the UK in order to demonstrate and collect data from the use of your unbelievable technique. What's your location so I can get the details worked out.
Thanks,
Hugh
I'm working to get you "hooked up with" a Verve Infocrank dealer in the UK in order to demonstrate and collect data from the use of your unbelievable technique. What's your location so I can get the details worked out.
Thanks,
Hugh
Re: Re:
OK than The Republic of Ireland? Just give my a clue and I'd do the heavy lifting for you. We need to get this validation underway.
Hugh
backdoor said:
OK than The Republic of Ireland? Just give my a clue and I'd do the heavy lifting for you. We need to get this validation underway.
Hugh
Re: Re:
OK than The Republic of Ireland? Just give my a clue and I'll do the heavy lifting for you. We need to get this validation underway.
Aha near the Brim Brothers would put you near Dublin. No worries I think we can get you all set up within easy cycling distance.
Hugh
backdoor said:
OK than The Republic of Ireland? Just give my a clue and I'll do the heavy lifting for you. We need to get this validation underway.
Aha near the Brim Brothers would put you near Dublin. No worries I think we can get you all set up within easy cycling distance.
Hugh
Re: Re:
Infocrank no good . Calculating pedal smoothness over 360 deg when your power stroke is restricted to 180 deg. makes no sense. The same applies to torque effectiveness. Pioneer or Axis cranks are what's needed.
sciguy said:
Infocrank no good . Calculating pedal smoothness over 360 deg when your power stroke is restricted to 180 deg. makes no sense. The same applies to torque effectiveness. Pioneer or Axis cranks are what's needed.
Re: Re:
The key is to collect simultaneous metabolic data. Anyone can manipulate their pedaling technique but solid research shows that more mechanically effective pedaling (pedal force effectiveness is the usual term used in papers) is less metabolically efficient. That's why I've tried to get him hooked up with guys at British Cycling in Manchester or Brunel University in London who could measure metabolism and biomechanics.
On the other hand, I feel sorry for the guy now that he bared his soul in an earlier post. The guy was a smoker, quit smoking and gained weight, took up cycling in his 40s to try to lose weight, something about his bike set up, his flexibility, or how he was riding gave him excruciating back pain when he tried to go hard. Who knows what he was doing wrong. Then he changed something, he thinks its how he pedals, and now he feels better on a bike. Good on him. Sounds like he's now in his mid 50s so I say go out and have a good ride. As you know, I too have felt the need to argue with him and call him out but now I really just feel sorry for him.
Cheers,
Jim
sciguy said:
The key is to collect simultaneous metabolic data. Anyone can manipulate their pedaling technique but solid research shows that more mechanically effective pedaling (pedal force effectiveness is the usual term used in papers) is less metabolically efficient. That's why I've tried to get him hooked up with guys at British Cycling in Manchester or Brunel University in London who could measure metabolism and biomechanics.
On the other hand, I feel sorry for the guy now that he bared his soul in an earlier post. The guy was a smoker, quit smoking and gained weight, took up cycling in his 40s to try to lose weight, something about his bike set up, his flexibility, or how he was riding gave him excruciating back pain when he tried to go hard. Who knows what he was doing wrong. Then he changed something, he thinks its how he pedals, and now he feels better on a bike. Good on him. Sounds like he's now in his mid 50s so I say go out and have a good ride. As you know, I too have felt the need to argue with him and call him out but now I really just feel sorry for him.
Cheers,
Jim
Re: Re:
Noel,
As posted earlier.
From DCrainmaker's recent review found here-
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/11/verve-infocrank-review.html
"Pedal Stroke Analysis: In January, they’ll launch a firmware update that’ll allow you to use their torque analysis and pedal stroke analysis app. This will take readings at 256 times a second and also pipe that information into the pedal smoothness metrics. But folks will be able to look at the raw data within the software suite directly."
I believe this will provide vastly greater resolution than the Pioneer and probably Axis cranks as well. I do agree with you that the pedal smoothness is of limited if any usefulness.
So you're near Dublin correct?
Thanks,
Hugh
backdoor said:
Noel,
As posted earlier.
From DCrainmaker's recent review found here-
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/11/verve-infocrank-review.html
"Pedal Stroke Analysis: In January, they’ll launch a firmware update that’ll allow you to use their torque analysis and pedal stroke analysis app. This will take readings at 256 times a second and also pipe that information into the pedal smoothness metrics. But folks will be able to look at the raw data within the software suite directly."
I believe this will provide vastly greater resolution than the Pioneer and probably Axis cranks as well. I do agree with you that the pedal smoothness is of limited if any usefulness.
So you're near Dublin correct?
Thanks,
Hugh
Re: Re:
Jim,
That's a great point regarding the need to look at the metabolic cost combinded along with technique. I admire your compassion for Noel but still would still love to see evidence of the technique in action. In God we trust all others bring data
Cheers,
Hugh
PhitBoy said:
Jim,
That's a great point regarding the need to look at the metabolic cost combinded along with technique. I admire your compassion for Noel but still would still love to see evidence of the technique in action. In God we trust all others bring data
Cheers,
Hugh
Re: Re:
Applying peak torque vertically downward instead of at a 45 deg. angle, and that change solves not only cycling's lower back pain but also pedalling's dead spot sector (11-1 o'c) by replacing it with close to max torque. I will be 74 later this month.
PhitBoy said:
Applying peak torque vertically downward instead of at a 45 deg. angle, and that change solves not only cycling's lower back pain but also pedalling's dead spot sector (11-1 o'c) by replacing it with close to max torque. I will be 74 later this month.
Re: Re:
Then by all means get out and enjoy your rides and believe anything you want to believe. Just don't expect anyone to believe you without data. And no, a blog post or a magazine article do not count as data.
backdoor said:
Then by all means get out and enjoy your rides and believe anything you want to believe. Just don't expect anyone to believe you without data. And no, a blog post or a magazine article do not count as data.
Re: Re:
[quote="sciguy"
Jim,
That's a great point regarding the need to look at the metabolic cost combinded along with technique. I admire your compassion for Noel but still would still love to see evidence of the technique in action. In God we trust all others bring data
Cheers,
Hugh[/quote]
The cyclists I feel sorry for are those who still have to suffer the torture of lower back pain each time they go out on their bikes and those who continue to waste money on the never ending supply of dead spot eliminating equipment. The pedalling technique is identical to what you see in this video, because the dead spot sector no longer exists continuous highly effective chain drive power can be applied to the chain ring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
[quote="sciguy"
Jim,
That's a great point regarding the need to look at the metabolic cost combinded along with technique. I admire your compassion for Noel but still would still love to see evidence of the technique in action. In God we trust all others bring data
Cheers,
Hugh[/quote]
The cyclists I feel sorry for are those who still have to suffer the torture of lower back pain each time they go out on their bikes and those who continue to waste money on the never ending supply of dead spot eliminating equipment. The pedalling technique is identical to what you see in this video, because the dead spot sector no longer exists continuous highly effective chain drive power can be applied to the chain ring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
Re: Re:
If you feel for all of our lower backs that much, why do you so steadfastly refuse to do something to prove the effectiveness of your miracle cure?
backdoor said:sciguy said:Jim,
That's a great point regarding the need to look at the metabolic cost combinded along with technique. I admire your compassion for Noel but still would still love to see evidence of the technique in action. In God we trust all others bring data
Cheers,
Hugh
The cyclists I feel sorry for are those who still have to suffer the torture of lower back pain each time they go out on their bikes and those who continue to waste money on the never ending supply of dead spot eliminating equipment. The pedalling technique is identical to what you see in this video, because the dead spot sector no longer exists continuous highly effective chain drive power can be applied to the chain ring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
If you feel for all of our lower backs that much, why do you so steadfastly refuse to do something to prove the effectiveness of your miracle cure?
Re: Re:
Because of (as you can see from this forum) the difficulty in trying to explain what's involved. In this technique by changing the angle in which peak torque is directed, all stress associated with pedalling is hinged in the hips instead of the lower back.
JamesCun said:backdoor said:sciguy said:Jim,
That's a great point regarding the need to look at the metabolic cost combinded along with technique. I admire your compassion for Noel but still would still love to see evidence of the technique in action. In God we trust all others bring data
Cheers,
Hugh
The cyclists I feel sorry for are those who still have to suffer the torture of lower back pain each time they go out on their bikes and those who continue to waste money on the never ending supply of dead spot eliminating equipment. The pedalling technique is identical to what you see in this video, because the dead spot sector no longer exists continuous highly effective chain drive power can be applied to the chain ring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
If you feel for all of our lower backs that much, why do you so steadfastly refuse to do something to prove the effectiveness of your miracle cure?
Because of (as you can see from this forum) the difficulty in trying to explain what's involved. In this technique by changing the angle in which peak torque is directed, all stress associated with pedalling is hinged in the hips instead of the lower back.
Re: Re:
I'd love to see that diagram. I think you have it quite wrong in that respect. how do you engage your arms, as you say you must, if your back isn't involved in transferring that effort to your legs?
backdoor said:JamesCun said:backdoor said:sciguy said:Jim,
That's a great point regarding the need to look at the metabolic cost combinded along with technique. I admire your compassion for Noel but still would still love to see evidence of the technique in action. In God we trust all others bring data
Cheers,
Hugh
The cyclists I feel sorry for are those who still have to suffer the torture of lower back pain each time they go out on their bikes and those who continue to waste money on the never ending supply of dead spot eliminating equipment. The pedalling technique is identical to what you see in this video, because the dead spot sector no longer exists continuous highly effective chain drive power can be applied to the chain ring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
If you feel for all of our lower backs that much, why do you so steadfastly refuse to do something to prove the effectiveness of your miracle cure?
Because of (as you can see from this forum) the difficulty in trying to explain what's involved. In this technique by changing the angle in which peak torque is directed, all stress associated with pedalling is hinged in the hips instead of the lower back.
I'd love to see that diagram. I think you have it quite wrong in that respect. how do you engage your arms, as you say you must, if your back isn't involved in transferring that effort to your legs?
Re: Re:
I'd love to see that diagram. I think you have it quite wrong in that respect. how do you engage your arms, as you say you must, if your back isn't involved in transferring that effort to your legs?[/quote]
That's what I mean by difficulty.
JamesCun said:
I'd love to see that diagram. I think you have it quite wrong in that respect. how do you engage your arms, as you say you must, if your back isn't involved in transferring that effort to your legs?[/quote]
That's what I mean by difficulty.
Is this your opinion or do you have data to support your argument? Any argument?? Do you understand the concept of having to supply actual evidence and that the strength of your character is insufficient, for anyone???
Re: Re:
[quote="PhitBoy"
The key is to collect simultaneous metabolic data. Anyone can manipulate their pedaling technique but solid research shows that more mechanically effective pedaling (pedal force effectiveness is the usual term used in papers) is less metabolically efficient.
Cheers,
Jim[/quote]
I would not consider the testing of circular v mashing to be solid research, and apart from including what should be the recovery upstroke in the research, mashing does not use the most powerful combination of pedalling muscles. The only pedalling effectiveness that matters in time trials is that where maximal force is being applied to the pedal and that is restricted to 180 deg. of the pedalling circle and less with the mashing style.
[quote="PhitBoy"
The key is to collect simultaneous metabolic data. Anyone can manipulate their pedaling technique but solid research shows that more mechanically effective pedaling (pedal force effectiveness is the usual term used in papers) is less metabolically efficient.
Cheers,
Jim[/quote]
I would not consider the testing of circular v mashing to be solid research, and apart from including what should be the recovery upstroke in the research, mashing does not use the most powerful combination of pedalling muscles. The only pedalling effectiveness that matters in time trials is that where maximal force is being applied to the pedal and that is restricted to 180 deg. of the pedalling circle and less with the mashing style.
Re: Re:
An idea why or if 'mechanically effective pedaling' is INTRINSICALLY less 'metabolically efficient'?
Does the limb movement / coordination needed for mechanically effective pedaling somehow FORCE less metabolic efficiency?
For example, are some of the muscles that would be used for mechanically effective pedaling so uncorrectably (i.e untrainable) inefficient that it is pointess to use them for that function?
Or perhaps it's that additional training would yield better results by focusing on the muscles used for 'traditional pedaling', and not be concerned with mechanical effectiveness as a goal of its own.
I don't doubt the findings that people who 'try' to pedal in a mechanically effective manner do so with less metabolic efficiency. But is that a 'forever' situation, or could it be eliminated or reversed with adequate training?
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
-------------PhitBoy said:
An idea why or if 'mechanically effective pedaling' is INTRINSICALLY less 'metabolically efficient'?
Does the limb movement / coordination needed for mechanically effective pedaling somehow FORCE less metabolic efficiency?
For example, are some of the muscles that would be used for mechanically effective pedaling so uncorrectably (i.e untrainable) inefficient that it is pointess to use them for that function?
Or perhaps it's that additional training would yield better results by focusing on the muscles used for 'traditional pedaling', and not be concerned with mechanical effectiveness as a goal of its own.
I don't doubt the findings that people who 'try' to pedal in a mechanically effective manner do so with less metabolic efficiency. But is that a 'forever' situation, or could it be eliminated or reversed with adequate training?
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Re: Re:
Forever. See http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29406
One guy who has been pulling up / pedaling circles for seven years is instantly more efficient when he can just stomp like the rest of us.
JayKosta said:
Forever. See http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29406
One guy who has been pulling up / pedaling circles for seven years is instantly more efficient when he can just stomp like the rest of us.
Re: Re:
Yes that was the conclusion from the specific testing of a single-leg cyclist and the use of a counterweight which reduced the need for "must pull up substantially during his normal cycling".
I don't recall any mention of whether the cyclist was pedaling in a 'mechanically effective' manner, with or without the counterweight. If the cyclist's 'pull-up' technique was mechanically ineffective (and metabolically expensive), then it's not surprising that reducing the amount of ineffective pedaling would increase efficiency.
I'm more interested in the idea (my wording) that -
"mechanically effective pedaling is fundamentally less metabolically efficient"
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------PhitBoy said:
Yes that was the conclusion from the specific testing of a single-leg cyclist and the use of a counterweight which reduced the need for "must pull up substantially during his normal cycling".
I don't recall any mention of whether the cyclist was pedaling in a 'mechanically effective' manner, with or without the counterweight. If the cyclist's 'pull-up' technique was mechanically ineffective (and metabolically expensive), then it's not surprising that reducing the amount of ineffective pedaling would increase efficiency.
I'm more interested in the idea (my wording) that -
"mechanically effective pedaling is fundamentally less metabolically efficient"
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Re: Re:
Mechanically effective pedalling measured over 360 deg. is meaningless because to get 100 % you would only be applying minimal torque, One explanation why it is less metabolically efficient is because you are using the muscles of two legs to do what can be done more effectively by one leg. When you attempt to extend power application over 180 deg. your brain's concentration is split, resulting in a loss of power from your most powerful muscles and an overall loss of power. Comparing Anquetil's semi circular power application and circular pedalling's, you have two extremes of attempts to increase torque application. The circular pedaller is using his weakest muscles to apply additional minimal torque at a time when his other leg is attempting to apply maximal torque. Anquetil's style uses a cyclist's most powerful combination of muscles to not only apply additional maximal torque at a time when the other leg is effectively idling but also to increase the pedalling effectiveness between 1 and 2 o'c to 100%.
JayKosta said:
Mechanically effective pedalling measured over 360 deg. is meaningless because to get 100 % you would only be applying minimal torque, One explanation why it is less metabolically efficient is because you are using the muscles of two legs to do what can be done more effectively by one leg. When you attempt to extend power application over 180 deg. your brain's concentration is split, resulting in a loss of power from your most powerful muscles and an overall loss of power. Comparing Anquetil's semi circular power application and circular pedalling's, you have two extremes of attempts to increase torque application. The circular pedaller is using his weakest muscles to apply additional minimal torque at a time when his other leg is attempting to apply maximal torque. Anquetil's style uses a cyclist's most powerful combination of muscles to not only apply additional maximal torque at a time when the other leg is effectively idling but also to increase the pedalling effectiveness between 1 and 2 o'c to 100%.
Re: Re:
I see it differently, there is a difference between one legged and circular pedalling. Unlike Powercranking and single leg pedalling, circular pedalling is counterweighted which means it does not have the added difficulties of taking that pedal 6 to 7 o'c and from 10 to 1o'c. By adding that counterweight to this man's bike, he no longer had these extra tasks that interfered with his pedalling. This resulted in smoother pedalling and improved efficiency and after 7 years of the circular style objectives, he was more likely to continue with that technique than change to the mashing style.
PhitBoy said:
I see it differently, there is a difference between one legged and circular pedalling. Unlike Powercranking and single leg pedalling, circular pedalling is counterweighted which means it does not have the added difficulties of taking that pedal 6 to 7 o'c and from 10 to 1o'c. By adding that counterweight to this man's bike, he no longer had these extra tasks that interfered with his pedalling. This resulted in smoother pedalling and improved efficiency and after 7 years of the circular style objectives, he was more likely to continue with that technique than change to the mashing style.
Re: Re:
[quote="CoachFergie"
You only have to get on your bike for a min. or two and experience it for yourself.
" solid research shows that more mechanically effective pedaling (pedal force effectiveness is the usual term used in papers) is less metabolically efficient. "
Do you believe this and if so, why ?
[quote="CoachFergie"
You only have to get on your bike for a min. or two and experience it for yourself.
" solid research shows that more mechanically effective pedaling (pedal force effectiveness is the usual term used in papers) is less metabolically efficient. "
Do you believe this and if so, why ?
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