The pedaling technique thread

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Jun 4, 2015
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3,280
Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
The sensible way to go is to effectively increase power where the leg is idling.
...
----------------
Yes, short term power could be increased that way, but at what cost to endurance due to increased muscle fatigue? It wouldn't be wise to activate low efficiency muscles that drain O2 and fuel except for short duration critical needs.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

You have not read my explanation for Anquetil's extra power in time trials on the previous page or if you did, you did not understand it.
The objective of the non round ring rider is to attempt to apply additional minimal torque to the crank around 3 o'c with the same leg that is already applying maximal torque, the objective of Anq's semi circular technique is to apply additional maximal torque to the crank when both legs of the natural pedaller are idling.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
...
the objective of Anq's semi circular technique is to apply additional maximal torque to the crank when both legs of the natural pedaller are idling.
-------------------------------------
What clock segments of the 'natural technique' to you think are idling?
Does the 'semi circular technique' produce significant torque throughout the entirety of those segments?
What segments of the 'semi circular technique' are idling?

I think the main concern about what segments are used is the physiology that enables high power, good muscle endurance, and efficient use of 'fuel'. The precise usage of segments probably varies from person to person, and it might be that some people can do very well using a technique that is not appropriate for others.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
The sensible way to go is to effectively increase power where the leg is idling.
...
----------------
Yes, short term power could be increased that way, but at what cost to endurance due to increased muscle fatigue? It wouldn't be wise to activate low efficiency muscles that drain O2 and fuel except for short duration critical needs.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

You have not read my explanation for Anquetil's extra power in time trials on the previous page or if you did, you did not understand it.
The objective of the non round ring rider is to attempt to apply additional minimal torque to the crank around 3 o'c with the same leg that is already applying maximal torque, the objective of Anq's semi circular technique is to apply additional maximal torque to the crank when both legs of the natural pedaller are idling.
Show us the data Noel.
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
0
3,280
Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
the objective of Anq's semi circular technique is to apply additional maximal torque to the crank when both legs of the natural pedaller are idling.
-------------------------------------
What clock segments of the 'natural technique' do you think are idling?
Does the 'semi circular technique' produce significant torque throughout the entirety of those segments?
What segments of the 'semi circular technique' are idling?

I think the main concern about what segments are used is the physiology that enables high power, good muscle endurance, and efficient use of 'fuel'. The precise usage of segments probably varies from person to person, and it might be that some people can do very well using a technique that is not appropriate for others.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Segments idling 11-1 and 5 -7. No only in the upper segment with close to maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. There is no (both legs) idling sector in the semi circular technique. There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
...
There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.
-----------------------------
Of course any rider could USE that technique, the question is whether it would be an improvement.
And there is not any objective data from anyone who uses/used it. Nor is there anyone except you (that I know of), who claims that it gave them an improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
0
3,280
Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.
-----------------------------
Of course any rider could USE that technique, the question is whether it would be an improvement.
And there is not any objective data from anyone who uses/used it. Nor is there anyone except you (that I know of), who claims that it gave them an improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
How about adding up all that muscle idling time during a 10 m TT when they could be applying maximal torque. Like the Rotor Crank idea the oval shaped rings could recover a small fraction of this lost time but only if the muscle coordination was adjusted instead of waiting for the pedalling to adapt, that would not be as effective with the oval shaped rings.
 
Mar 13, 2013
82
0
0
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.
-----------------------------
Of course any rider could USE that technique, the question is whether it would be an improvement.
And there is not any objective data from anyone who uses/used it. Nor is there anyone except you (that I know of), who claims that it gave them an improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
How about adding up all that muscle idling time during a 10 m TT when they could be applying maximal torque. Like the Rotor Crank idea the oval shaped rings could recover a small fraction of this lost time but only if the muscle coordination was adjusted instead of waiting for the pedalling to adapt, that would not be as effective with the oval shaped rings.
Because a non-idling muscle has a cost. You need oxygen, glucose and water to feed that non-idling muscle.

You need to prove that paying that cost has a net benefit.
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
0
3,280
Re: Re:

berend said:
backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.
-----------------------------
Of course any rider could USE that technique, the question is whether it would be an improvement.
And there is not any objective data from anyone who uses/used it. Nor is there anyone except you (that I know of), who claims that it gave them an improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
How about adding up all that muscle idling time during a 10 m TT when they could be applying maximal torque. Like the Rotor Crank idea the oval shaped rings could recover a small fraction of this lost time but only if the muscle coordination was adjusted instead of waiting for the pedalling to adapt, that would not be as effective with the oval shaped rings.
Because a non-idling muscle has a cost. You need oxygen, glucose and water to feed that non-idling muscle.

You need to prove that paying that cost has a net benefit.

As for cost and benefit, taking that idling leg over TDC is not free of cost. From the same maximal force a masher can apply to his pedal at 1.30 o'c a semi circular pedaller can double the torque of that masher. Do you think the Osy chainring will be the last attempt at changing chainring shape .
 
Mar 13, 2013
82
0
0
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
berend said:
backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.
-----------------------------
Of course any rider could USE that technique, the question is whether it would be an improvement.
And there is not any objective data from anyone who uses/used it. Nor is there anyone except you (that I know of), who claims that it gave them an improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
How about adding up all that muscle idling time during a 10 m TT when they could be applying maximal torque. Like the Rotor Crank idea the oval shaped rings could recover a small fraction of this lost time but only if the muscle coordination was adjusted instead of waiting for the pedalling to adapt, that would not be as effective with the oval shaped rings.
Because a non-idling muscle has a cost. You need oxygen, glucose and water to feed that non-idling muscle.

You need to prove that paying that cost has a net benefit.

As for cost and benefit, taking that idling leg over TDC is not free of cost. From the same maximal force a masher can apply to his pedal at 1.30 o'c a semi circular pedaller can double the torque of that masher. Do you think the Osy chainring will be the last attempt at changing chainring shape .
That's why I wrote net benefit. Please prove that using the idling muscle will have a net benefit over using the muscles your body uses naturally.
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
0
3,280
Re: Re:

berend said:
That's why I wrote net benefit. Please prove that using the idling muscle will have a net benefit over using the muscles your body uses naturally.
Your body does not know how muscles can be used at TDC because as a child on your first trike you had to concentrate on applying only downward pedal pressure and that is everyone's natural pedalling style. The muscles you are using and the way you use them at TDC are about effective as those some riders try to use during their upstroke. Together with the correct bike setup and equipment you have a combination of muscles that are not only capable of applying the same maximal torque at 12 as that applied at 3 o'c but they can also bend that that maximal torque through 1 and 2 o'c where it merges with natural pedalling's downward torque. Not using that powerful combination of muscles at TDC is like a natural pedaller ignoring his downstroke muscle power and using only his upstroke muscles for pedal power.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
berend said:
That's why I wrote net benefit. Please prove that using the idling muscle will have a net benefit over using the muscles your body uses naturally.
Your body does not know how muscles can be used at TDC because as a child on your first trike you had to concentrate on applying only downward pedal pressure and that is everyone's natural pedalling style. The muscles you are using and the way you use them at TDC are about effective as those some riders try to use during their upstroke. Together with the correct bike setup and equipment you have a combination of muscles that are not only capable of applying the same maximal torque at 12 as that applied at 3 o'c but they can also bend that that maximal torque through 1 and 2 o'c where it merges with natural pedalling's downward torque. Not using that powerful combination of muscles at TDC is like a natural pedaller ignoring his downstroke muscle power and using only his upstroke muscles for pedal power.
Data please.
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
0
3,280
Re: Re:

Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
berend said:
That's why I wrote net benefit. Please prove that using the idling muscle will have a net benefit over using the muscles your body uses naturally.
Your body does not know how muscles can be used at TDC because as a child on your first trike you had to concentrate on applying only downward pedal pressure and that is everyone's natural pedalling style. The muscles you are using and the way you use them at TDC are about effective as those some riders try to use during their upstroke. Together with the correct bike setup and equipment you have a combination of muscles that are not only capable of applying the same maximal torque at 12 as that applied at 3 o'c but they can also bend that that maximal torque through 1 and 2 o'c where it merges with natural pedalling's downward torque. Not using that powerful combination of muscles at TDC is like a natural pedaller ignoring his downstroke muscle power and using only his upstroke muscles for pedal power.
Data please.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
That and his results in non climbing TT'S.
 
Jun 1, 2014
385
0
0
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
berend said:
That's why I wrote net benefit. Please prove that using the idling muscle will have a net benefit over using the muscles your body uses naturally.
Your body does not know how muscles can be used at TDC because as a child on your first trike you had to concentrate on applying only downward pedal pressure and that is everyone's natural pedalling style. The muscles you are using and the way you use them at TDC are about effective as those some riders try to use during their upstroke. Together with the correct bike setup and equipment you have a combination of muscles that are not only capable of applying the same maximal torque at 12 as that applied at 3 o'c but they can also bend that that maximal torque through 1 and 2 o'c where it merges with natural pedalling's downward torque. Not using that powerful combination of muscles at TDC is like a natural pedaller ignoring his downstroke muscle power and using only his upstroke muscles for pedal power.
Data please.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
That and his results in non climbing TT'S.
Do you get paid by the view? A video is useless at validation your claims. TT results are also useless.
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
0
3,280
Re:

CoachFergie said:
So quick summary of Noel's life.

Number of people convinced in his theory: 1.

"How is that working out for you"?
That's in keeping with cycling research. If for almost 100 years the experts did not even realize the importance of an aero hand/arm position in TT's, how could ye be expected to accept the fact that a completely different perfect TT pedaling technique exists. Your wallet will not give you an advantage in TT's, it's still a level playing field, only technique can do that.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
So quick summary of Noel's life.

Number of people convinced in his theory: 1.

"How is that working out for you"?
That's in keeping with cycling research. If for almost 100 years the experts did not even realize the importance of an aero hand/arm position in TT's, how could ye be expected to accept the fact that a completely different perfect TT pedaling technique exists. Your wallet will not give you an advantage in TT's, it's still a level playing field, only technique can do that.
Data please.
 
Apr 21, 2009
3,095
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Exists in your mind is not the same as actually exists.

If it actually existed it would be easy to measure.

If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.
 
Regarding use of a power meter -

I think that any rider who is adept at using a 'special technique' for TTs would also be adequately adept at using a 'standard technique' -- unless that person trained ONLY using the special technique and did not do typical 'road training' where the special technique would be cumbersome.

So it should be possible to have that person do comparison TTs with a PM tracking the effort - special technique, and standard technique. The 'timed results' and the PM results could be examined and compared. Or perhaps the comparison of technique could be done on a stationary bike ergometer.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Apr 21, 2009
3,095
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0
The smart money is still on Jacques having a high VO2max, good fractional utilisation of that VO2max and high efficiency.

I don't have data on Jacques, but there is a considerable amount of data that suggest that is what usually does the trick!
 

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