The pedaling technique thread

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Jun 4, 2015
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Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
You can feel that surge of power as your foot goes over the top.
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Without data you're only guessing that there is a 'surge of power'.

I'm sure there is a feeling of intense muscle effort, but do you know how much actual power is being produced?

Do you feel the bike doing obvious acceleration each time at TDC? And is that what you really want?

For each rotation of the crank, for each leg do you want to feel sectors where the muscles are working really hard and then relaxing in the other sectors?

Or do you want some other feeling of 'muscle usage'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
No guessing, that surge of power is the result of starting your power stroke around 11 o'c and boosted by the ability to use arm resistance. Because you are using a high gear there should be only insignificant if any acceleration but what you are doing by replacing the dead spot with maximal torque is decreasing the slight deceleration that occurs. What you want is an extended power stroke that can give the greatest possible tangential force to the crank over 180 deg. From 5 to 11 you draw back, unweight and while they are recovering prepare your power muscles for simultaneous changeover of power application when cranks are at the 11/5 o'c positions.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Re: Re:

backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
You can feel that surge of power as your foot goes over the top.
------
Without data you're only guessing that there is a 'surge of power'.

I'm sure there is a feeling of intense muscle effort, but do you know how much actual power is being produced?

Do you feel the bike doing obvious acceleration each time at TDC? And is that what you really want?

For each rotation of the crank, for each leg do you want to feel sectors where the muscles are working really hard and then relaxing in the other sectors?

Or do you want some other feeling of 'muscle usage'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
No guessing, that surge of power is the result of starting your power stroke around 11 o'c and boosted by the ability to use arm resistance. Because you are using a high gear there should be only insignificant if any acceleration but what you are doing by replacing the dead spot with maximal torque is decreasing the slight deceleration that occurs. What you want is an extended power stroke that can give the greatest possible tangential force to the crank over 180 deg. From 5 to 11 you draw back, unweight and while they are recovering prepare your power muscles for simultaneous changeover of power application when cranks are at the 11/5 o'c positions.
April Fools is over Noel. No one believes your nonsense, no one ever has. Data, or it never hapened.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
...
No guessing, that surge of power is the result of starting your power stroke around 11 o'c and boosted by the ability to use arm resistance.
...
--------------------------------
Yes, that method of pedalling could be done, but whether it really would produce more overall power and speed with sustainable endurance is not obvious.

Regarding the use of the arms to stablize the position during the power sectors, I think that would actually use additional fuel and O2 for the purpose of keeping the rider stable on the saddle. With the traditional pedalling technique, gravity is more involved in keeping the rider on the saddle, and it uses less fuel and O2 to provide saddle stability.

Perhaps Anq's max VO2 was great enough for him to successfully use his arms as you describe and also to actually increase his leg power while remaining stable on the saddle. But that doesn't mean that everyone could achieve similar results.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
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Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
No guessing, that surge of power is the result of starting your power stroke around 11 o'c and boosted by the ability to use arm resistance.
...
--------------------------------


Perhaps Anq's max VO2 was great enough for him to successfully use his arms as you describe and also to actually increase his leg power while remaining stable on the saddle. But that doesn't mean that everyone could achieve similar results.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
No, Anq. was forced to use double handed resistance. With Scott Rake aero bars you can use alternate hand resistance which is more effective and removes all lower back stress the root cause of chronic 'on the bike' lower back pain.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
...
No, Anq. was forced to use double handed resistance. With Scott Rake aero bars you can use alternate hand resistance which is more effective and removes all lower back stress the root cause of chronic 'on the bike' lower back pain.
-------------------
Regardless of whether double or alternating single arm is used, doing so is still more effort, and consumes more 'fuel and O2'.
Even IF that technique was 'best' for Anq, it doesn't imply that it would be best for everyone.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Or that Scott Rake bars were banned within the year in the early nineties.

A big IF considering no data has been presented from Jacques.

We know Eddy Merckx sustained 450 watts in a lab test in Belgium weeks after he broke the World Record in Mexico.

We know that VO2max, fractional utilisation of VO2max and efficiency are a large part of the motor. We know that pacing and aerodynamics are a large part of the deal. No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.

You are doing a very poor job of communicating your theory Noel. Shocking that you haven't ever tried to actually teach it to someone and measure a difference in performance, just continue the sham of "look at Jacques" with no real evidence of what he did or whether it benefitted him or harmed his performance.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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berend said:
backdoor said:
How about rowing, fixed seat v sliding seat ?
Are you sure you want to use that example to further your case? Something designed to allow athletes to use the big, efficient, stomping, quad and glute muscles even more? :lol:

In both cases you are extending the range and and improving the effectiveness of your leg force generating muscles
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.
That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.
What rubbish.

Not only are you refusing to provide any data to support your claims but you are now ignoring the data that does exist in the scientific literature.

So once again Noel, data please. It's really very simple thing to do....
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.
That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.
Not only are you refusing to provide any data to support your claims but you are now ignoring the data that does exist in the scientific literature.
I would like to see one of these attempts to change the power stroke.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.
------------------------------------------------
My guess is that some people did try to change their pedalling technique to something near to what you describe. But they either quickly gave up because they thought it was too difficult, or they tried for a while and didn't see an improvement.

Getting people to do (for example) a 6 week test in which they dedicated themself to learning the technique and doing serious training with it might also be difficult. Serious competitors or even enthusiastic recreational riders would want some assurance that they would get a benefit, and not just 'waste' 6 weeks.

The most likely way to validate your technique would be via an accomplished rider who already uses it, and then doing comparison tests with that rider using the traditional technique.

From everyone's comments, I don't believe there is anyone who is 'philosophically opposed' to your technique - it's just that it doesn't seem to 'make sense' that it would give the benefits you suggest.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Re: Re:

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.
That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.
I guess if all you do is cherry pick youtube and blogs to confirm your bias you may have missed the many gimmicks out there that try claim improved pedalling techniques, the large number of studies that investigate different pedalling methods.

The above, however, is still not support, data, for your nonsense claims.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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backdoor said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.
That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.
Not only are you refusing to provide any data to support your claims but you are now ignoring the data that does exist in the scientific literature.
I would like to see one of these attempts to change the power stroke.
FRANK DUCKING DAY!!!!
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Re: Re:

CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.
That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.
Not only are you refusing to provide any data to support your claims but you are now ignoring the data that does exist in the scientific literature.
I would like to see one of these attempts to change the power stroke.
FRANK DUCKING DAY!!!!
Frank with his PC's was attempting to apply extra power through TDC, BDC and in the upstroke, not to change the power stroke.
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
0
3,280
Re: Re:

CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.
That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.
I guess if all you do is cherry pick youtube and blogs to confirm your bias you may have missed the many gimmicks out there that try claim improved pedalling techniques, the large number of studies that investigate different pedalling methods.

The above, however, is still not support, data, for your nonsense claims.
In all cases above they are still using the same natural style in which maximal torque can only be applied around 3 o'c. Any changes made to technique were outside the power stroke and if anything reduced the power of the down stroke and overall power. Unweighting the one change that could increase downstroke power appears to be unresearched. For over 120 years using force sensing equipment, creating complicated formulas and using computer simulations the experts have tried to improve the natural pedalling style and they failed because it cannot be improved. As you said yourself, where improving pedalling technique is concerned, over 500 useless peer reviewed studies. Common sense is all that's required, you adapt and merge part of the power generating techniques of another sport and you get the perfect pedalling technique, in the same way as triathletes used part of the downhill skiers technique to get their perfect aerodynamic position, which is something cycling experts also missed.
 
Apr 21, 2009
3,095
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Re: Re:

backdoor said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
Frank with his PC's was attempting to apply extra power through TDC, BDC and in the upstroke, not to change the power stroke.
"the power stroke" is a meaningless term.

Data please.

See Zone 1

http://www.bicycling.com/training/fitness/perfect-pedal-stroke
Not peer review.

I never said they were useless studies, they are studies that show us that change has no impact on performance. This is easily measurable with any power meter!
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
0
3,280
Re: Re:

CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
Frank with his PC's was attempting to apply extra power through TDC, BDC and in the upstroke, not to change the power stroke.
"the power stroke" is a meaningless term.

Data please.

See Zone 1

http://www.bicycling.com/training/fitness/perfect-pedal-stroke
Not peer review.

I never said they were useless studies, they are studies that show us that change has no impact on performance.
That's worse, misleading information which led experts like A Pruitt to believe the perfect pedalling technique does not exist. All those studies proved was, tinkering with the natural technique will not improve performance.
 
Jun 1, 2014
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Re: Re:

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.
That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.
I guess if all you do is cherry pick youtube and blogs to confirm your bias you may have missed the many gimmicks out there that try claim improved pedalling techniques, the large number of studies that investigate different pedalling methods.

The above, however, is still not support, data, for your nonsense claims.
In all cases above they are still using the same natural style in which maximal torque can only be applied around 3 o'c. Any changes made to technique were outside the power stroke and if anything reduced the power of the down stroke and overall power. Unweighting the one change that could increase downstroke power appears to be unresearched. For over 120 years using force sensing equipment, creating complicated formulas and using computer simulations the experts have tried to improve the natural pedalling style and they failed because it cannot be improved. As you said yourself, where improving pedalling technique is concerned, over 500 useless peer reviewed studies. Common sense is all that's required, you adapt and merge part of the power generating techniques of another sport and you get the perfect pedalling technique, in the same way as triathletes used part of the downhill skiers technique to get their perfect aerodynamic position, which is something cycling experts also missed.
Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.

To the others here...is there any point continuing to beat your head against a wall? Noel has no interest in actually proving or confirming his claims, since he already believes them to be 100% proven. Any request is met with a YouTube link and some fluffy language about a perfect technique...a complete waste of time.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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JamesCun said:
Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.
I've already explained in detail what's involved. What I find hard to understand is the lack of common sense found in cycling. Alex and CF keep asking for data, which can only mean they are incapable of realizing the effect having the ability to apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 can have on pedalling. Laurent Fignon's back room team were probably waiting for data to confirm that a narrower hand/arm position would improve time in a TT, not so with Lemond and he cruised to victory in that Tour de F.
 
Jun 1, 2014
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Re: Re:

backdoor said:
JamesCun said:
Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.
I've already explained in detail what's involved. What I find hard to understand is the lack of common sense found in cycling. Alex and CF keep asking for data, which can only mean they are incapable of realizing the effect having the ability to apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 can have on pedalling. Laurent Fignon's back room team were probably waiting for data to confirm that a narrower hand/arm position would improve time in a TT, not so with Lemond and he cruised to victory in that Tour de F.
People have no doubt that you can alter pedalling mechanics to increase force in certain segments. That is really easy to achieve. What people do doubt is the performance improvement that you claim comes from that change. Pulling up also increases power output, but doesn't increase sustainable power when you consider metabolic limitations. People aren't going to waste their time chasing rainbows when there is no pot of gold at the end.
 

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