The pedaling technique thread

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Jun 4, 2015
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.

How would any power meter show me ?
Since your mythical technique enables someone to produce a gob smacking increase in sustainable power output, then it would be trivial to measure the change in performance.

So, once again, data please.
If a rider could apply the same maximal torque to his crank at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, what effect would it have on pedalling?
 
Nov 25, 2010
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backdoor said:
If a rider could apply the same maximal torque to his crank at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, what effect would it have on pedalling?
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That would result in a very odd looking graph of torque production.

It's likely that the sectors between 11-12 and 3-4 o'clock would show increasing and then decreasing torque, and the 12-3 sector would be a constant flat line of high-torque. The sector between 6-9 would show 0 or negative torque depending on how much unweighting or pulling-up was done. The 4-6 and 9-11 sectors are less obvious and depend on the precise way the pedalling is done, but the torque would probably be near 0.

I don't recall ANY torque graphs indicating that 'same maximal torque' is ever produced for more than a few degrees of crank rotation. I doubt that it is physically possible unless the torque is consciously kept the same at a level lower than true physical maximum.

It would be a mistake to conclude from a torque graph that one technique was better than another without considering all the other other aspects involved - such as aerodymanics, muscle endurance, fuel usage, riding skill, etc.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Jun 1, 2014
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Re: Re:

backdoor said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.

How would any power meter show me ?
Since your mythical technique enables someone to produce a gob smacking increase in sustainable power output, then it would be trivial to measure the change in performance.

So, once again, data please.
If a rider could apply the same maximal torque to his crank at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, what effect would it have on pedalling?
It would have the effect of increasing energy consumption. You'd have to show that it results in better race outcomes, since producing maximal torque is not what wins a race.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Noel's simple mind doesn't get that power is easy to increase. Sustaining it for the duration or distance needed is the challenge.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.

How would any power meter show me ?
Since your mythical technique enables someone to produce a gob smacking increase in sustainable power output, then it would be trivial to measure the change in performance.

So, once again, data please.
If a rider could apply the same maximal torque to his crank at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, what effect would it have on pedalling?
Provide the data and show us.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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CoachFergie said:
Noel's simple mind doesn't get that power is easy to increase. Sustaining it for the duration or distance needed is the challenge.
It's your mind that fails to get it. Increasing power is easy, it's how it's done that makes all the difference where sustainability is concerned. That's why different techniques are necessary for road racing and time trials. You know of only one way to power your pedals and increase sustainability. For TT's you need a technique that can give a large increase in the pedalling effectiveness of your power stroke, that's impossible with natural pedalling. With this technique you get the additional advantage of being able to extend your power stroke and make maximal use of that idling TDC sector. To prove this you need a PM that can give genuine readings of your pedalling effectiveness and torque distribution.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Data Noel, not your vivid imagination. Any power meter could be used to prove this! Better technique through greater torque, greater efficiency will always have to equal more power for longer durations.

YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN THIS! EVER!!!
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Noel's simple mind doesn't get that power is easy to increase. Sustaining it for the duration or distance needed is the challenge.
It's your mind that fails to get it. Increasing power is easy, it's how it's done that makes all the difference where sustainability is concerned. That's why different techniques are necessary for road racing and time trials. You know of only one way to power your pedals and increase sustainability. For TT's you need a technique that can give a large increase in the pedalling effectiveness of your power stroke, that's impossible with natural pedalling. With this technique you get the additional advantage of being able to extend your power stroke and make maximal use of that idling TDC sector. To prove this you need a PM that can give genuine readings of your pedalling effectiveness and torque distribution.
No Noel. All you need is to measure the sustainable power before and after a pedalling technique intervention.
Even so, the tools to measure torque around a pedal stroke have been available for decades*.

So, once again, data please.

* actually the first force measurement pedals were invented in the 1890s
 
Jun 4, 2015
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JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
If a rider could apply the same maximal torque to his crank at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, what effect would it have on pedalling?
-----------------------------------------
That would result in a very odd looking graph of torque production.

It's likely that the sectors between 11-12 and 3-4 o'clock would show increasing and then decreasing torque, and the 12-3 sector would be a constant flat line of high-torque. The sector between 6-9 would show 0 or negative torque depending on how much unweighting or pulling-up was done. The 4-6 and 9-11 sectors are less obvious and depend on the precise way the pedalling is done, but the torque would probably be near 0.

I don't recall ANY torque graphs indicating that 'same maximal torque' is ever produced for more than a few degrees of crank rotation. I doubt that it is physically possible unless the torque is consciously kept the same at a level lower than true physical maximum.

It would be a mistake to conclude from a torque graph that one technique was better than another without considering all the other other aspects involved - such as aerodymanics, muscle endurance, fuel usage, riding skill, etc.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
That's a good description of the torque graph but there would be a slight rise in line at 1.30 where peak maximal torque would be taking place, torque between 3-5 would be same as with natural pedalling, the sector between 5 and 11 would show 0. Maximal torque means maximal force with almost 100% torque return. This is a high gear technique for time trials not road races and it can make a large reduction in knee stress. This pedalling graph is made possible by a simple switch in the use of muscles especially the glutes, lower legs and ankles. As for aerodynamics etc, you only have to look at Anquetil's position and TT results.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Data Noel, not your vivid imagination. And position and TT results are proof of nothing. Anquetil won because he had the right mix of VO2max, fractional utilisation of VO2max and efficiency.
 
Nov 25, 2010
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We can 'speculate' about what the torque graph would show, and try to interpret what it means, but without actual testing and analysis of data we're just guessing.
And regarding Anq's success in TTs - it's unclear whether his success was BECAUSE or INSPITE of pedalling technique.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Jun 4, 2015
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JayKosta said:
And regarding Anq's success in TTs - it's unclear whether his success was BECAUSE or INSPITE of pedalling technique.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
J. Bobet can answer that question, he is the only rider that I know of who noticed Anquetil had no dead spot sector in his TT technique. If you could use the technique it would be very clear to you. You also said you can't tell from a graph if one technique is better than another. It's not a case of one technique being better than another, it's being more suitable than another for the type of torque that's required. Natural pedalling's sinusoidal graph is best for the accelerating and decelerating of road racing but for time trials you need the smoothest possible way of applying max torque to the cranks and this involves replacing that dead spot sector with maximal torque at TDC. You can feel that surge of power as your foot goes over the top.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Crikey Noel, most nutters find the voices in their head tell them they are wealthy, attractive, popular, hated, to kill and so forth. Yours tell what you think a dead guy pedalled like. You sure lucked out in the nutbar stakes!

All this nonsense on the internet and you haven't once taught a local rider and transformed their TT ability! That's just sad!!!
 
Jun 4, 2015
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CoachFergie said:
All this nonsense on the internet and you haven't once taught a local rider and transformed their TT ability! That's just sad!!!
Not sad, most satisfying. As I said before, my only objective after only taking up cycling in my forties was to find the perfect pedalling technique, their only interest is in the latest most expensive gizmos. That's not surprising when all coaches like yourself are telling them technique is of no importance.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Ha ha yeah that is why riders I coach have the best gate start techniques, flying 200m lines for various design tracks, passing strategies, tactical appreciation, pacing strategies for different tracks, courses and conditions compared to other local coaches.

But they are technical skills that can be quantified and easily coached.

Yours is a myth.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
All this nonsense on the internet and you haven't once taught a local rider and transformed their TT ability! That's just sad!!!
Not sad, most satisfying. As I said before, my only objective after only taking up cycling in my forties was to find the perfect pedalling technique, their only interest is in the latest most expensive gizmos. That's not surprising when all coaches like yourself are telling them technique is of no importance.
LOL

You're telling us that data, which would actually demonstrate whether or not your concepts make sense, is of no importance.
 
Nov 25, 2010
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backdoor said:
...
You can feel that surge of power as your foot goes over the top.
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Without data you're only guessing that there is a 'surge of power'.

I'm sure there is a feeling of intense muscle effort, but do you know how much actual power is being produced?

Do you feel the bike doing obvious acceleration each time at TDC? And is that what you really want?

For each rotation of the crank, for each leg do you want to feel sectors where the muscles are working really hard and then relaxing in the other sectors?

Or do you want some other feeling of 'muscle usage'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Micro accelerations during steady state cycling* due to pedalling in a pulse like pseudo-sinusoidal manner (i.e. a normal application of power while pedalling) vary between +/- 0.03g. It's tiny. Maximal variance in bike speed during a pedal stroke is 0.1km/h (<0.3%).

You can change the shape of the power application around the pedal stroke all you like but it's not going to make a lick of difference to the velocity sustained. To do that, you need to apply more power overall and our limitations are metabolic in nature, not force.

* Micro acceleration rates with power applied in sinusoidal manner during pedal stroke at 90 rpm on flat road, no wind, 80kg bike + rider, Crr 0.005, CdA 0.35m^2, Air density 1.20kg/m^3 with Average power 250W
 
Jun 4, 2015
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CoachFergie said:
Maths: FTW! Well played Alex!!!

You would say that, but Alex is overlooking one important limitation to chain drive power, which is the tangential effect of the force that is being applied. By increasing the tangential effect you get more power than another rider from the same maximal force.
 
Mar 13, 2013
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backdoor said:
How about rowing, fixed seat v sliding seat ?
Are you sure you want to use that example to further your case? Something designed to allow athletes to use the big, efficient, stomping, quad and glute muscles even more? :lol:
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Maths: FTW! Well played Alex!!!

You would say that, but Alex is overlooking one important limitation to chain drive power, which is the tangential effect of the force that is being applied. By increasing the tangential effect you get more power than another rider from the same maximal force.
Data please Noel.

So you admit that should your method work, it results in sustainably generating more power, which means you'll be able to easily and cheaply measure the difference in power output for a rider before and after a pedalling technique intervention.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for the results though....
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Maths: FTW! Well played Alex!!!

You would say that, but Alex is overlooking one important limitation to chain drive power, which is the tangential effect of the force that is being applied. By increasing the tangential effect you get more power than another rider from the same maximal force.
No, I'm simply pointing out that:
i. accelerations due to the pulse like application of power are tiny, and if the application of power was less pulse like and more even, then the micro-accelerations would be even smaller
ii. our limiter is metabolic in nature.
 

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