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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

CoachFergie said:
For those of us who actually do science and coach World Tour and Olympic Cyclists it is excellent advice and allows us to pursue other areas of improvement.

Hamish

Of course it is, that is all you are interested in reading. When that first video of Anquetil's pedalling action became available in 2001, it confirmed I had solved the source of his mysterious extra power in time trials. The coach who wrote that article on "one legged pedalling" lives about a mile away from me, I sent him full details of the technique and offered a demonstration but he had not the slightest interest. Not saying you are old but like yourself, old coaches are very set in their ways and don't want any upstart telling them there could be a better way to pedal a bike.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
For those of us who actually do science and coach World Tour and Olympic Cyclists it is excellent advice and allows us to pursue other areas of improvement.

Hamish

When that first video of Anquetil's pedalling action became available in 2001, it confirmed I had solved the source of his mysterious extra power in time trials.

Noel,

Care to explain how a video of Anquetil pedaling proved how he was applying force? I've watched the video numerous times and see no evidence what so ever of how he's applying force. He does pedal a bit more toe down than many athletes but that no evidence of anything other than his seat might have been a bit high.

Hugh
 
Re: Re:

sciguy said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
For those of us who actually do science and coach World Tour and Olympic Cyclists it is excellent advice and allows us to pursue other areas of improvement.

Hamish

When that first video of Anquetil's pedalling action became available in 2001, it confirmed I had solved the source of his mysterious extra power in time trials.

Noel,

Care to explain how a video of Anquetil pedaling proved how he was applying force? I've watched the video numerous times and see no evidence what so ever of how he's applying force. He does pedal a bit more toe down than many athletes but that no evidence of anything other than his seat might have been a bit high.

Hugh

As I have said before, you will learn absolutely nothing about what is involved in any technique by watching a video because all muscle action is invisible. First you have got to have independently discovered the technique, then you know exactly what to look for, both in upper and lower body movements, where and how the power starts to be applied and where it finishes, especially when he is riding at maximal power output. He never did perfect the technique, without the ideal aero bar TT equipment he was forced to use a double handed action for resistance purposes instead of a single handed action which not only makes the technique more powerful but also eliminates all lower back stress and gives a more comfortable saddle setting by being able to tilt it down without any sliding forward instead of in an upward position. It was clearly visible to me that his additional power lay between 12 and 2 o'c and applied in exactly the same way as I was applying it.
 
Re: Re:

Your posts always remind me the movie Princess Bride:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1n5CQe1krI

backdoor said:
As I have said before, you will learn absolutely nothing about what is involved in any technique by watching a video because all muscle action is invisible. First you have got to have independently discovered the technique, then you know exactly what to look for, both in upper and lower body movements, where and how the power starts to be applied and where it finishes, especially when he is riding at maximal power output. He never did perfect the technique, without the ideal aero bar TT equipment he was forced to use a double handed action for resistance purposes instead of a single handed action which not only makes the technique more powerful but also eliminates all lower back stress and gives a more comfortable saddle setting by being able to tilt it down without any sliding forward instead of in an upward position. It was clearly visible to me that his additional power lay between 12 and 2 o'c and applied in exactly the same way as I was applying it.
 
Re: Re:

PhitBoy said:
Your posts always remind me the movie Princess Bride:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1n5CQe1krI

backdoor said:
As I have said before, you will learn absolutely nothing about what is involved in any technique by watching a video because all muscle action is invisible. First you have got to have independently discovered the technique, then you know exactly what to look for, both in upper and lower body movements, where and how the power starts to be applied and where it finishes, especially when he is riding at maximal power output. He never did perfect the technique, without the ideal aero bar TT equipment he was forced to use a double handed action for resistance purposes instead of a single handed action which not only makes the technique more powerful but also eliminates all lower back stress and gives a more comfortable saddle setting by being able to tilt it down without any sliding forward instead of in an upward position. It was clearly visible to me that his additional power lay between 12 and 2 o'c and applied in exactly the same way as I was applying it.


That's due to the fact that your knowledge of pedalling is restricted to the circular and mashing techniques, on which repeated time wasting comparison studies take place year after year.
 
Re: Re:

I can only test the cyclists, including World and Olympic champions, who volunteer for our studies. None of them pedal like you claim to pedal.
Perhaps you have forgotten my repeated offers to test you here at Utah or to have you tested by British Cycling in Manchester or Brunel University in London. If only you would share your fantastic skill, the rest of the world could cycle faster like you and your hero. Think of what a hero you could be to British Cycling!
Some might interpret your refusal to have your technique quantitatively analyzed as a confession that you know your claims are fantasy. Indeed some might think that you make up those claims simply to troll this forum.
Cheers,
Jim

backdoor said:
That's due to the fact that your knowledge of pedalling is restricted to the circular and mashing techniques, on which repeated time wasting comparison studies take place year after year.
 
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Re: Re:

backdoor said:
That's due to the fact that your knowledge of pedalling is restricted to the circular and mashing techniques, on which repeated time wasting comparison studies take place year after year.

There's also pedalling in squares. That happens when you're so broken your muscle co-ordination fails, and you just try to move your feet in circles and fail.

That's unlikely to be efficient, and unlikely to be useful, so it's difficult to get funding for that study.
 
Re: Re:

berend said:
backdoor said:
That's due to the fact that your knowledge of pedalling is restricted to the circular and mashing techniques, on which repeated time wasting comparison studies take place year after year.

There's also pedalling in squares. That happens when you're so broken your muscle co-ordination fails, and you just try to move your feet in circles and fail.

That's unlikely to be efficient, and unlikely to be useful, so it's difficult to get funding for that study.

Yes and there is also ankling which is a more extreme version of circular pedalling but these are variations of the same basic natural style in which your main torque application takes place between 2 and 4 o'c. Mashing is the most effective technique of all known styles and too much funding has been spent on confirming what does not improve performance instead of searching for what will improve performance over that of mashing where both power application and sustainability are concerned.
 
Re: Re:

Some might interpret your refusal to have your technique quantitatively analyzed as a confession that you know your claims are fantasy. Indeed some might think that you make up those claims simply to troll this forum.
Cheers,
Jim

backdoor said:
too much funding has been spent on confirming what does not improve performance instead of searching for what will improve performance over that of mashing where both power application and sustainability are concerned.
 
Re: Re:

PhitBoy said:
Some might interpret your refusal to have your technique quantitatively analyzed as a confession that you know your claims are fantasy. Indeed some might think that you make up those claims simply to troll this forum.
Cheers,
Jim

backdoor said:
too much funding has been spent on confirming what does not improve performance instead of searching for what will improve performance over that of mashing where both power application and sustainability are concerned.

Such a reply is only to be expected from someone who can't even visualize the technique. All that's required to verify my claims is a reliable PM (and a qualified person to fit it and record the results) that can give genuine torque measurements around the entire circle, this would confirm that it is possible to apply maximal torque through 12 and 1 o'c while in the racing drops position, but according to Alex Simmons most PM torque values are concocted. BrimBros ( who are about 10 miles from me) had promised such a PM but their final result was nothing more than another power measuring PM. If such a PM exists maybe they would be willing to do the fitting. It's a pity there are not riders around my area with the mentality of J Kosta who is prepared to forfeit training time in his search for a better way to power his pedals.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
PhitBoy said:
Some might interpret your refusal to have your technique quantitatively analyzed as a confession that you know your claims are fantasy. Indeed some might think that you make up those claims simply to troll this forum.
Cheers,
Jim

backdoor said:
too much funding has been spent on confirming what does not improve performance instead of searching for what will improve performance over that of mashing where both power application and sustainability are concerned.

Such a reply is only to be expected from someone who can't even visualize the technique. All that's required to verify my claims is a reliable PM (and a qualified person to fit it and record the results) that can give genuine torque measurements around the entire circle, this would confirm that it is possible to apply maximal torque through 12 and 1 o'c while in the racing drops position, but according to Alex Simmons most PM torque values are concocted. BrimBros ( who are about 10 miles from me) had promised such a PM but their final result was nothing more than another power measuring PM. If such a PM exists maybe they would be willing to do the fitting. It's a pity there are not riders around my area with the mentality of J Kosta who is prepared to forfeit training time in his search for a better way to power his pedals.

Noel,

So why was it that when I offered to help hook you up with the local Verve distributor/dealer you showed no interest? The Verve Power meter is a true two sided, torque reading and very accurate unit. It's been on the market long enough to have a good number of very positive reviews. In a matter of a very few minutes on a bike with one installed you could demonstrate your technique to the world. I've also offered to help you fund a trip to visit the UK testing lab Jim Marten has recommended to you. How much do you estimate that might cost. I bet we can raise it in short order. Inquiring minds want to know how this all pans out.

Hugh
 
Noel is essentially claiming that his technique can add power to the pedal stroke without causing losses in other parts of the stroke. This is where Frank Day always came up short. This was easily proven with ANY power meter. No difference in power in the short term or after up to 10 weeks of training. The training with a gimmickcrank did lead to changes in the way people pedalled but when they went back to normal cranks the changes diminished rapidly. People learn to pedal in the way they are constrained to pedal. In light of competition, long rides or shorter but more intense rides it is clear cyclists will adapt the constraints placed on their pedalling. Any suggestion that Anquetil used a different style of pedalling, whether claimed or not, is pure speculation. His success as a cyclist, as is any riders success is due to a high VO2max, high threshold and high efficiency.

As Jim is pointing out, Noel is a Troll.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
[with the mentality of J Kosta who is prepared to forfeit training time in his search for a better way to power his pedals.
-----------------
Just to clarify -
My interest in pedalling technique is more about 'curiousity' than for personal gain. For personal reasons, I haven't done any riding for about 1 1/2 years, and when I was training, my pedalling style was basically 'constant speed circular' with unweighting on the upstroke, and downstroke power between 1 and 5 o'clock. I've never been fit enough to feel that trying a different pedalling technique was the the best way to improve my performance.
For endurance exercise, I've been using an elliptical trainer that can be adjusted to somewhat achieve the 'feel' of bicycle pedalling - but I haven't been back on a bike to see if it's really transfered to cycling strength.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
Just to clarify -
My interest in pedalling technique is more about 'curiousity' than for personal gain. For personal reasons, I haven't done any riding for about 1 1/2 years, and when I was training, my pedalling style was basically 'constant speed circular' with unweighting on the upstroke, and downstroke power between 1 and 5 o'clock.
Just to clarify, how did you measure these things?
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
Such a reply is only to be expected from someone who can't even visualize the technique.

That's why we need you to show us the technique. I'll take this response to mean that you still won't go in for biomechanical and metabolic analysis. Correct? Some might interpret your refusal to have your technique quantitatively analyzed as a confession that you know your claims are fantasy. Indeed some might think that you make up those claims simply to troll this forum.
Cheers,
Jim
 
Re: Re:

Alex Simmons/RST said:
JayKosta said:
Just to clarify -
My interest in pedalling technique is more about 'curiousity' than for personal gain. For personal reasons, I haven't done any riding for about 1 1/2 years, and when I was training, my pedalling style was basically 'constant speed circular' with unweighting on the upstroke, and downstroke power between 1 and 5 o'clock.
Just to clarify, how did you measure these things?
-------------
I haven't done any actual measurements, so it's just my guess based on 'feel' from road riding and on a 'spinning bike' that has a fixed gear and heavy flywheel (a LeMond of some sort at the gym). I don't attempt any forceful 'kicking forward' around TDC, and no forceful 'pulling back' around BDC - just trying to avoid noticeable changes in rotational velocity, and doing unweighting on the upstroke section.

And yes, my 'guess' might be completely different than what good measurements would show.
I'm NOT claiming any 'goodness' about my technique (whatever it might actually be), it is what I do and I haven't seen any reason to change it - but when I was riding I did train for more perceived power, and also speed intervals and longish hills.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
JayKosta said:
Just to clarify -
My interest in pedalling technique is more about 'curiousity' than for personal gain. For personal reasons, I haven't done any riding for about 1 1/2 years, and when I was training, my pedalling style was basically 'constant speed circular' with unweighting on the upstroke, and downstroke power between 1 and 5 o'clock.
Just to clarify, how did you measure these things?
-------------
I haven't done any actual measurements, so it's just my guess based on 'feel' from road riding and on a 'spinning bike' that has a fixed gear and heavy flywheel (a LeMond of some sort at the gym). I don't attempt any forceful 'kicking forward' around TDC, and no forceful 'pulling back' around BDC - just trying to avoid noticeable changes in rotational velocity, and doing unweighting on the upstroke section.

And yes, my 'guess' might be completely different than what good measurements would show.
I'm NOT claiming any 'goodness' about my technique (whatever it might actually be), it is what I do and I haven't seen any reason to change it - but when I was riding I did train for more perceived power, and also speed intervals and longish hills.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
OK. It's my conjecture (IOW I can't say for certain) that what people think they are doing while pedalling is not always what they are actually doing. If Noel ever actually bothered to get his mystical technique measured, that's most likely what he'll find out. Countering this of course are studies where riders where asked to change technique, so it's clear one can apply some level of conscious control. I'm more talking about pedalling naturally, i.e. without actually thinking about it.

I don't have such pedal technique data on myself unfortunately as it would have made an unique pedal data case study having been competitive cyclist before and after trans tibial amputation. But at least I have power meter data, which as far as I'm aware, is unique. I guess with the ubiquity of power meters now days, that scenario may well happen again, though I sure don't wish it on anyone.

Clearly my pedalling technique must have changed due to the obvious structural differences, e.g. no ankle joint/foot lever, removal of lower leg musculature, the cleat placement on my prosthetic leg side is effectively under where my ankle would have been instead of more forward to where the ball of my foot would have been and where it was when I had the leg, so at a crude level not only was the extra lever and lower leg and associated musculature removed, it means that my down stroke timing became significantly asymmetrical, and with the prosthetic leg side there is no way I can manipulate my ankle angle to push across the top, "scrape mud" or pull up with any sort of force one might be able to attempt with complete leg.

Yet remarkably neither my sustainable power output nor my race results were impacted once I'd had sufficient time to recover, adapt to the prosthesis and train sufficiently. The only part of my power-duration curve that suffered was Pmax. My abilities to generate power for anything longer than a few seconds was essentially unaffected.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
PhitBoy said:
Some might interpret your refusal to have your technique quantitatively analyzed as a confession that you know your claims are fantasy. Indeed some might think that you make up those claims simply to troll this forum.
Cheers,
Jim

backdoor said:
too much funding has been spent on confirming what does not improve performance instead of searching for what will improve performance over that of mashing where both power application and sustainability are concerned.

Such a reply is only to be expected from someone who can't even visualize the technique. All that's required to verify my claims is a reliable PM (and a qualified person to fit it and record the results) that can give genuine torque measurements around the entire circle, this would confirm that it is possible to apply maximal torque through 12 and 1 o'c while in the racing drops position, but according to Alex Simmons most PM torque values are concocted. BrimBros ( who are about 10 miles from me) had promised such a PM but their final result was nothing more than another power measuring PM. If such a PM exists maybe they would be willing to do the fitting. It's a pity there are not riders around my area with the mentality of J Kosta who is prepared to forfeit training time in his search for a better way to power his pedals.

Noel,

It looks like if you can find someone local with the Powertap P1 Pedals you should now be able to give us some excellent visual feedback of your pedaling technique. I for one can't wait.

advanced-metrics-4.jpg


Hugh
 
Re: Re:

sciguy said:
It looks like if you can find someone local with the Powertap P1 Pedals you should now be able to give us some excellent visual feedback of your pedaling technique. I for one can't wait. Hugh

Hi Hugh:
Keep in mind we all can pedal in non standard ways. The problem is that such non standard pedaling increases metabolic cost of producing power. So a simple measure of applied torque only addresses part of the issue. Gotta have metabolic measures or perhaps sustained power as well as mechanics to fully address the question.
Cheers,
Jim
 
Re: Re:

PhitBoy said:
sciguy said:
It looks like if you can find someone local with the Powertap P1 Pedals you should now be able to give us some excellent visual feedback of your pedaling technique. I for one can't wait. Hugh

Hi Hugh:
Keep in mind we all can pedal in non standard ways. The problem is that such non standard pedaling increases metabolic cost of producing power. So a simple measure of applied torque only addresses part of the issue. Gotta have metabolic measures or perhaps sustained power as well as mechanics to fully address the question.
Cheers,
Jim

Absolutely, but I'd bet Noel really isn't applying power in the manner he envisions. It would be an easy "step1" just to see whether he's actually doing what he thinks he's doing. If he's not actually doing what he contends in terms of force application, the whole "metabolic cost" aspect becomes a moot point.

It will be exciting to see real force distribution data from top cyclists from the various specialties within elite cycling. Does Chris Froome pedal differently than the typical Cat 3 racer or do they apply force pretty much in the same manner?

Cheers,

Hugh
 
Hamish,
the article you mentioned ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1469029216300826 ) looks to be the same as PHITBOY did earlier.

I don't find it surprising that it showed a decrease in efficiency when they were tested using a different technique than they had trained for. Maybe it was due to the need for mental concentration about the new technique, or perhaps their muscles and coordination were not working efficiently because the technique was new to them.

If you make an adjustment to something such as seat height, handle bar location, crank length, etc., how much training have you seen as being necessary to determine if there is an improvement? Are your riders willing to make changes that don't show an 'immediate improvement'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Re:

JayKosta said:
Hamish,
the article you mentioned ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1469029216300826 ) looks to be the same as PHITBOY did earlier.

I don't find it surprising that it showed a decrease in efficiency when they were tested using a different technique than they had trained for. Maybe it was due to the need for mental concentration about the new technique, or perhaps their muscles and coordination were not working efficiently because the technique was new to them.

If you make an adjustment to something such as seat height, handle bar location, crank length, etc., how much training have you seen as being necessary to determine if there is an improvement? Are your riders willing to make changes that don't show an 'immediate improvement'?

Jay Kosta


Endwell NY USA

Even if a rider trained for years perfecting the circular style, it would still not be as effective as mashing because you are interfering with the natural interaction between brain and muscles when generating and applying a force, by forcing the brain to divert more than half its attention from the most powerful to the weakest muscles, and it is more efficient to let the down leg muscles push the rising pedal from 9+ o'c to TDC than having the weakest muscles do it, counterweighted single leg pedalling confirmed that.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
...
and it is more efficient to let the down leg muscles push the rising pedal from 9+ o'c to TDC than having the weakest muscles do it, counterweighted single leg pedalling confirmed that.
-----------
Are you suggesting that the amount of muscle effort for 'unweighting' on the upstroke should be stopped at 9+ o'c ?

And if that is what you mean, then I think it would take considerable mental concentration to make that happen. Especially if the rider was using active muscle action in the 5 to 9 o'c sector.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 

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