Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So was he ever 61Kg or is this Wiki mischief?

Yes, early 2020. So during Algarve - Burgos - Poland from what i recall from interviews back then. At the start of the Giro he was supposedly around 60kg. One day he said below 60, the next day he said 60.5kg.

 

[red_flanders]

The problem with Evenepoel is that he rests too little. He came out of the training period for Itzulia in good shape. So early April. With hardly any rest he moved on to Liege . After that, he should have rested for at least two, maybe three weeks, and not competing in Norway. Instead, build up very slowly to Switzerland. Now he came from Norway tired, and started with a declining form in Switzerland.

Who thinks he's learned his lesson ? Not at all. He declared to rest only one week after Switzerland. OK, he won't do Burgos , but he will do San Sebastian. He will probably not be fresh enough for the Vuelta again, not for the second half anyway. And certainly not for the world championships.

Maybe he’s just a young rider who is inconsistent. Not sure these unequivocal declarations about what he should be doing are warranted.

 

[houtdffan]

or, the most likely scenario is he suffered a borderline heat stroke due to the helmet choice and took a couple of days to recover

Sometimes, the obvious answer is the right answer. NO need to go into mindless speculation

He seems to have learned his lesson

 

[Big Doopie]

...Not sure these unequivocal declarations about what he should be doing are warranted.

and we're only on page 400...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Watts per kilo is king for climbing

To be even more precise it's watts/(body_mass + 7 kg) on steep slopes. Bike mass changes things: from two cyclists generating the same w/kg the heavier will climb faster (due to additional power independent of body mass that is needed to lift a bike). To achieve a VAM of 1800 m/h a 60-kilo cyclist needs about 5.5 w/kg to overcome gravity alone while a 70-kilo cyclist needs 5.4 w/kg for that. For most climbs additional 0.8-1.2 w/kg (depending on gradient) is needed to overcome mainly rolling resistance and aero drag (which is less than linearly mass-dependent and also favours more powerful cyclist esp. on shallower slopes).

 

[wheresmybrakes]

Unbelievable. I don't think Jesus got spoke about this much in the bible.

 

[Extinction]

To be even more precise it's watts/(body_mass + 7 kg) on steep slopes. Bike mass changes things: from two cyclists generating the same w/kg the heavier will climb faster (due to additional power independent of body mass that is needed to lift a bike). To achieve a VAM of 1800 m/h a 60-kilo cyclist needs about 5.5 w/kg to overcome gravity alone while a 70-kilo cyclist needs 5.4 w/kg for that. For most climbs additional 0.8-1.2 w/kg (depending on gradient) is needed to overcome mainly rolling resistance and aero drag (which is less than linearly mass-dependent and also favours more powerful cyclist esp. on shallower slopes).

But doesn't the heavier rider need to generate more watts to keep up with the lighter rider, at which point bike mass is an extra handicap?

 

[dutchdescent]

Unbelievable. I don't think Jesus got spoke about this much in the bible.

You wrote what I thought this morning

 

[dutchdescent]

Unbelievable. I don't think Jesus got spoke about this much in the bible.

To add to that: the RE thread is perhaps exemplary what went wrong with the Gospel on JC.

The apostles essentially overpromised and underdelivered.

..Some folks still waiting for over 2000 yrs for the dude to deliver

 

[Krzysztof_O]

But doesn't the heavier rider need to generate more watts to keep up with the lighter rider, at which point bike mass is an extra handicap?

Obviously the heavier rider needs more watts but I'm saying that from two riders generating the same w/kg the heavier will be faster (therefore pure w/kg is not the only thing that matters uphill). That's why super strong climbers are often around 65 kg instead of 55 kg. Bike mass changes things. A 65-kilo guy generating 390 w will be faster uphill than a 60-kilo guy generating 360 watts (both have 6 w/kg).

 

[gunara]

To add to that: the RE thread is perhaps exemplary what went wrong with the Gospel on JC.

The apostles essentially overpromised and underdelivered.

..Some folks still waiting for over 2000 yrs for the dude to deliver

Awful descending skill, despite holding the record for fastest ascent

 

[dutchdescent]

Awful descending skill, despite holding the record for fastest ascent

+100

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

But to win TTs means you have the power. If he weighs 61Kg that means he should be able to climb with the best and he has shown that albeit inconsistently.

He may have the power but not the right muscle fibers to handle multiple high mountain stages (consecutively). Jury's still out.

His 2 impressive MTF wins (Gaustatoppen, Picon Blanco) were both essentially Unipuerto stages. Both with echelons that likely killed the climbers. Ideal circumstances.

He was rightly praised for his performance in Itzulia but that was (of course) a medium mountain course.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Unbelievable. I don't think Jesus got spoke about this much in the bible.

How many watts did Jesus need to generate to enable him to walk on water?

And should we take this to the clinic?

 

[spalco]

And should we take this to the clinic?

Supernatural powers are not on the "Prohibited List".

 

[gregrowlerson]

Supernatural powers are not on the "Prohibited List".

Moses had his suspicions. That's why he parted the 'red' sea.

 

[Extinction]

Obviously the heavier rider needs more watts but I'm saying that from two riders generating the same w/kg the heavier will be faster (therefore pure w/kg is not the only thing that matters uphill). That's why super strong climbers are often around 65 kg instead of 55 kg. Bike mass changes things. A 65-kilo guy generating 390 w will be faster uphill than a 60-kilo guy generating 360 watts (both have 6 w/kg).

I was not aware of this, so I can only take your word for it. But I still don't see why at the same w/kg a heavier rider pushes the 7 kg bike faster. You'll have to explain the physics of that.

 

[Red Rick]

I was not aware of this, so I can only take your word for it. But I still don't see why at the same w/kg a heavier rider pushes the 7 kg bike faster. You'll have to explain the physics of that.

W/kg are calculated without the bike weight.

Also rolling restance component is and air resistance are less W/kg for bigger dudes

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I was not aware of this, so I can only take your word for it. But I still don't see why at the same w/kg a heavier rider pushes the 7 kg bike faster. You'll have to explain the physics of that.

try this formula (vertical speed is the quotient of power and resistive force (gravity in this case)):
VAM [m/h] = 3600 * power / [9.81 * (mass+7)]
for two cyclists with the same w/kg:

1. 70 kg and 420 w
2. 60 kg and 360 w

This will give you overestimated values (due to other forces I mentioned) but for steep slopes the relative difference is similar to this.

 

[Extinction]

try this formula (vertical speed is the quotient of power and resistive force (gravity in this case)):
VAM [m/h] = 3600 * power / [9.81 * (mass+7)]
for two cyclists with the same w/kg:

1. 70 kg and 420 w
2. 60 kg and 360 w

This will give you overestimated values (due to other forces I mentioned) but for steep slopes the relative difference is similar to this.

It's all just Greek to me.

 

[Big Doopie]

Obviously the heavier rider needs more watts but I'm saying that from two riders generating the same w/kg the heavier will be faster (therefore pure w/kg is not the only thing that matters uphill). That's why super strong climbers are often around 65 kg instead of 55 kg. Bike mass changes things. A 65-kilo guy generating 390 w will be faster uphill than a 60-kilo guy generating 360 watts (both have 6 w/kg).

tx for all the posts on this. I did not know this. In fact, if anything, I may have thought the opposite. Very interesting.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It's all just Greek to me.

7 extra kg make more of an impact for a lighter rider than it does for a heavier rider. If a 100kg dude climbs as fast as his 10 year old son under normal circumstances, who will climb faster with a 12kg backpack? For the 100kg dude this is only a 12% weight gain, so for the huge watts he already has to push, the difference will be minimal. But the 10 year old kid who weighs 25kg himself, now has to drag an extra 50% of weight with the limited watts he needed to push his 25kg uphill.

He may have the power but not the right muscle fibers to handle multiple high mountain stages (consecutively). Jury's still out.

Your muscles don't know whether they are doing a flat TT or a climb at a certain pace at certain watts. If he would climb the way he TT's, his muscle fibers would be none the wiser. But please don't tell them.

I think him focussing on gaining muscle in order to be more explosive/punchy is a mistake. He will never be as punchy as Roglic or Pogacar, so why does it matter if he loses 5 seconds at the finish or 2 seconds? Especially with the risk of him putting less focus (as evident this year) on longer climbs. Chances are by doing so, he won't even make it to the finish with those guys in order to sprint to begin with. He was a superb endurance athlete and now they are trying to turn him into a puncheur.

His 2 impressive MTF wins (Gaustatoppen, Picon Blanco) were both essentially Unipuerto stages. Both with echelons that likely killed the climbers. Ideal circumstances.

On the other hand, you can objectively verify this was a good climbing performance by the data. Regardless of the echelons that killed the climbers or lack of competitors.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

or, the most likely scenario is he suffered a borderline heat stroke due to the helmet choice and took a couple of days to recover

Sometimes, the obvious answer is the right answer. NO need to go into mindless speculation

He seems to have learned his lesson

But many competition days and too little rest in between is an objective fact. In addition, he is only 22 years old. So, not just my opinion, but a fact. Any rider would have ridden a lesser Tour of Switzerland in those circumstances. My point is that he and his team don't learn from mistakes. After Switzerland, Evenepoel is again only taking a week off. I already know what the consequences will be for the second half of the Vuelta and the Worlds.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

7 extra kg make more of an impact for a lighter rider than it does for a heavier rider. If a 100kg dude climbs as fast as his 10 year old son under normal circumstances, who will climb faster with a 12kg backpack? For the 100kg dude this is only a 12% weight gain, so for the huge watts he already has to push, the difference will be minimal. But the 10 year old kid who weighs 25kg himself, now has to drag an extra 50% of weight with the limited watts he needed to push his 25kg uphill.


Your muscles don't know whether they are doing a flat TT or a climb at a certain pace at certain watts. If he would climb the way he TT's, his muscle fibers would be none the wiser. But please don't tell them.

I think him focussing on gaining muscle in order to be more explosive/punchy is a mistake. He will never be as punchy as Roglic or Pogacar, so why does it matter if he loses 5 seconds at the finish or 2 seconds? Especially with the risk of him putting less focus (as evident this year) on longer climbs. Chances are by doing so, he won't even make it to the finish with those guys in order to sprint to begin with. He was a superb endurance athlete and now they are trying to turn him into a puncheur.

I agree.

 

[postmanhat]

But many competition days and too little rest in between is an objective fact. In addition, he is only 22 years old. So, not just my opinion, but a fact. Any rider would have ridden a lesser Tour of Switzerland in those circumstances. My point is that he and his team don't learn from mistakes. After Switzerland, Evenepoel is again only taking a week off. I already know what the consequences will be for the second half of the Vuelta and the Worlds.

All he has on his schedule now are the Nationals, possibly the Euros(?), and San Sebastian. Five days of racing at most before the Vuelta starts in two months. Doesn't seem too strenuous?