Tom Danielson

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

Just looked on Pate's twitter page. Under his photo it says: One of the Handful. Which implies (at least to me) that he's one of the few that doesn't dope.

Helmut wants to know about the u23 tt Worlds. And the breakaway at the Tour with the Spanish Disco rider and Simon Gerrans on the lumpy stage.

so, the question about doping definition. previously doped a few times, but gave up. What about that stage at the Tour? The pre TdF training camp in St Moritz. remember Millar and Van de Velde were target tested in the first week at the Tour, and Van de Velde was around 8th on GC on the final stage... so, cleans?

It Is possible to race at the top tier in Europe clean. Kirt Willett did it in the 90s with Mercury. He said his best result was mid pack at the Tour de Suisse. This is the result I'd expect a clean Pro Tour rider to garner.

Now, one could argue that Pate is a greater talent and that the bio passport has reigned things in but even giving those concessions, it seems unlikely to me that Pate could go from mid pack at the Tour de Suisse to contending for stage wins at the Tour de France.

As for Pate's treatment of Danielson? I believe it stems from the perception that Danielson is willing to dope for North American races with the same gusto that should be reserved for for Gand Tours and monuments. I understand this position. It's one easily held by someone like Pate: someone who can win North American races clean. Danielson never could.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

It Is possible to race at the top tier in Europe clean. Kirt Willett did it in the 90s with Mercury. He said his best result was mid pack at the Tour de Suisse. This is the result I'd expect a clean Pro Tour rider to garner.

Now, one could argue that Pate is a greater talent and that the bio passport has reigned things in but even giving those concessions, it seems unlikely to me that Pate could go from mid pack at the Tour de Suisse to contending for stage wins at the Tour de France.

As for Pate's treatment of Danielson? I believe it stems from the perception that Danielson is willing to dope for North American races with the same gusto that should be reserved for for Gand Tours and monuments. I understand this position. It's one easily held by someone like Pate: someone who can win North American races clean. Danielson never could.

maybe Pate could do it all clean. maybe he got the podium in the breakaway on the transition stage where the GC riders allowed the break to go. He did not win the stage. It was Gerrans from Egoi Martenez when he had moved across from the remnants of Disco to Euskaltel Euskadi. Pate was third, but basically there were all together in the last 3km when they were attacking eachother and Gerro did his usual shtick of playing dumb, he was actually dropped then got back on. Gerro that is.

Maybe he could have done the ride and Tour clean. I dont know. I am using Pate as more a cypher, than the individual Danny Pete. I dont know him. But I like his sledges to little Tommy D, pretty funny.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2008/stage-15/results/

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

If Danielson believes his positive is the result of supplement contamination, he should compel USADA to test his B sample in a way that can prove it.

That's what LaShawn Merritt did.

The Velonews reporter who filed this story missed something often overlooked. He states:

On the flipside, the accuracy of CIR (Carbon Isotope Ratio test) does lend itself to the contamination argument...

The CIR as used by USADA does lend itself to the contamination argument. However, at USADA's disposal is a rarely used, slightly more expensive CIR test that isolates exogenous testosterone and its exogenous precursors. This is the test that Merritt's lawyer compelled USADA to use on Merritt's B sample.

Testosterone precursors are often found in supplements. Testosterone, never.

Claims of supplement contamination by Scott Moninger, Tom Zirbel, Tyler Hamilton and Kenny Williams (the later two stated they intentionally consumed DHEA) are likely amateurish PR smoke screens shamefully reported and re-reported by journalists who didn't think to scrutinize the facts harder.

(Sidebar: I've worked as an editor and reporter. It's like any job: no one's perfect, people get tired, deadlines happen, mistakes are made. The better the reporter and editor, the less mistakes but still mistakes happen.)

Any athlete who claims supplement contamination should have their B sample retested with the more conclusive CIR test. Testing supplements is likely just a PR stunt.

 

[joe_papp]

Re: Re:

Any athlete who claims supplement contamination should have their B sample retested with the more conclusive CIR test. Testing supplements is likely just a PR stunt.

Hence why I suggested a better story would've been that the syn testosterone discovered in his body resulted from contact transference during the sex act w/ his partner who had just applied transdermal testosterone lol

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

Any athlete who claims supplement contamination should have their B sample retested with the more conclusive CIR test. Testing supplements is likely just a PR stunt.

Hence why I suggested a better story would've been that the syn testosterone discovered in his body resulted from contact transference during the sex act w/ his partner who had just applied transdermal testosterone lol

Is there a USADA press released stating that it was exogenous testosterone? I haven't seen one. If it was exogenous testosterone and not the usual "adverse analytical finding for testosterone or testosterone precursors," then USADA went after him.

But I haven't seen a press release.

Off topic, but when can you release your list of clients, if ever?

 

[pmcg76]

Re: B test

I kind of like this. Don't get me wrong, I don't like dopers. But I give respect to anyone who does something really stupid then immediately takes responsibility rather than trying the usual pitiful obfuscation route.

I wonder if Tom Brady or Tom Danielson would consider doing this the next time they get caught cheating? Probably not.....

i dont like dopers i dont dislike dopers

i dont like the use of the term doper as epithet

and who said they made bad decisions? or do you mean testing positive, not the actual doping.

like Matt Cooke said, we would not even know their names, they would not even be pros on the continent without the dope. as far as i see it, if cycling is an existential pursuit, and for most pros it is, then it is a pretty good decision to dope. and it is a pretty simple decision to justify

That is kinda irrelevant, as the question is would we have known their names in a clean sport. They faced the choice and chose to play the game. That applied to almost everyone from that era. Vandevelde was regarded as the most talented rider at Postal according to testimonies but had a moderate career. Zabriskie, likewise good enough for US junior teams etc so clearly talented. Ryder, I think most Canadians viewed him as a big talent from a young age. Only Danielson really bucks that trend. Very hard who to say from that era had the talent to make it.

Cooke is as much a hypocrite as the rest. He was on Navigators(considered the dirty team in the US) but does anybody remember him busting their balls at the time? buddies with Phil Z and all. Or team Exergy where he was team-mates with one of the few US riders from that era who escaped any punishment, Fred Rodriguez. Did he ever call him out? From what I hear, Cooke was desperate to get a European gig but only started producing results into his 30s so nobody was interested. Clearly the rejection stung so he had to find another way to become relevant. I don't ever recall him being vocal on doping before last year.

 

[pastronef]

Re: B test

Cooke is as much a hypocrite as the rest. He was on Navigators(considered the dirty team in the US) but does anybody remember him busting their balls at the time? buddies with Phil Z and all. Or team Exergy where he was team-mates with one of the few US riders from that era who escaped any punishment, Fred Rodriguez. Did he ever call him out? From what I hear, Cooke was desperate to get a European gig but only started producing results into his 30s so nobody was interested. Clearly the rejection stung so he had to find another way to become relevant. I don't ever recall him being vocal on doping before last year.

I did not know about that things
one thing in his favour is he never doped, so now his fellows are making money while he does not race anymore.
agree about your remarks about him not being vocal always (but I think he had to keep his job)

 

[gooner]

Re: B test

Cooke is as much a hypocrite as the rest. He was on Navigators(considered the dirty team in the US) but does anybody remember him busting their balls at the time? buddies with Phil Z and all. Or team Exergy where he was team-mates with one of the few US riders from that era who escaped any punishment, Fred Rodriguez. Did he ever call him out? From what I hear, Cooke was desperate to get a European gig but only started producing results into his 30s so nobody was interested. Clearly the rejection stung so he had to find another way to become relevant. I don't ever recall him being vocal on doping before last year.

I did not know about that things
one thing in his favour is he never doped, so now his fellows are making money while he does not race anymore.
agree about your remarks about him not being vocal always (but I think he had to keep his job)

But he's had a go at Phil Gaimon for his links with Danielson. That opens himself up for others to do likewise to him.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: B test

...

That is kinda irrelevant, as the question is would we have known their names in a clean sport. They faced the choice and chose to play the game. That applied to almost everyone from that era. Vandevelde was regarded as the most talented rider at Postal according to testimonies but had a moderate career. Zabriskie, likewise good enough for US junior teams etc so clearly talented. Ryder, I think most Canadians viewed him as a big talent from a young age. Only Danielson really bucks that trend. Very hard who to say from that era had the talent to make it.

Cooke is as much a hypocrite as the rest. He was on Navigators(considered the dirty team in the US) but does anybody remember him busting their balls at the time? buddies with Phil Z and all. Or team Exergy where he was team-mates with one of the few US riders from that era who escaped any punishment, Fred Rodriguez. Did he ever call him out? From what I hear, Cooke was desperate to get a European gig but only started producing results into his 30s so nobody was interested. Clearly the rejection stung so he had to find another way to become relevant. I don't ever recall him being vocal on doping before last year.

Don't disagree with your core points, but am questioning the snapshot history of some of the ex-posties.

Of all of them, we know that VdV was talented without dope. 'cuz he beat Lance in a TT when Lance wouldn't let him party with the team's secret sauce.

Ryder at a young age (U-23) was getting taught by Rasmussen how to do EPO. It is inescapable that he was doping in some form prior to that as it is difficult to believe that he just woke up one morning with an epiphany, 'hey the chicken knows about EPO maybe I should try it even though I have never done anything before'. Though, as we know, Ryder is the only athlete ever to have his performance suffer after using EPO.

Danielson not talented? Maybe. But, according to none other than Lance he was the heir apparent. Looks like that was the last time Lance endorsed him, though. Who knows, that praise may have been the sign that Lance was going to block TD from getting any opportunity for results lest he start to steal the spotlight.

Dave.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: B test

Cooke is as much a hypocrite as the rest. He was on Navigators(considered the dirty team in the US) but does anybody remember him busting their balls at the time? buddies with Phil Z and all. Or team Exergy where he was team-mates with one of the few US riders from that era who escaped any punishment, Fred Rodriguez. Did he ever call him out? From what I hear, Cooke was desperate to get a European gig but only started producing results into his 30s so nobody was interested. Clearly the rejection stung so he had to find another way to become relevant. I don't ever recall him being vocal on doping before last year.

Claims he didnt know about doping on Navigators, which is crazy because it seems like EVERYONE knew about that. But as a young guy who spent 1 year on a very diverse team, I imagine if he did suspect, he never got anything concrete.

The Zajicek friendship is pretty bad and looks way worse than Gaimon and TD's little honeymoon.

He is basically living the anti-doping catch-22, he shut-up and took his paycheck, now he can claim he was screwed cuz he doesn't get the paycheck.

He still won't name names or give specifics....so what is it worth?????

 

[Race Radio]

Re: B test

Cooke is as much a hypocrite as the rest. He was on Navigators(considered the dirty team in the US) but does anybody remember him busting their balls at the time? buddies with Phil Z and all. Or team Exergy where he was team-mates with one of the few US riders from that era who escaped any punishment, Fred Rodriguez. Did he ever call him out? From what I hear, Cooke was desperate to get a European gig but only started producing results into his 30s so nobody was interested. Clearly the rejection stung so he had to find another way to become relevant. I don't ever recall him being vocal on doping before last year.

This X 1000

Talked to one of Cooke's old teammates last week. He was laughing at Matt's new found clean babble. Said he always thought Matt was doping. Called him Mr Omerta, said everyone thought he was a doper. He was not just Phil Z's friend, he was his roommate when Phil was buying EPO from Papp. I think he might even be working for him now. He defended Phil aggressively even though he knew Phil was lying.

I fell for Cooke's fable for a while. Glad I found out the real story. What a weirdo

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: B test

We called them the Nandrolonegators.

Cooke. That guy knew. Everybody did.

Zajicek and don't forget Kirk O'Bee. Both with lifetime bans. Both Navigators alumni.

Ed Beamon must be proud. Is he still working in the sport?

 

[pastronef]

Re: B test

Cooke is as much a hypocrite as the rest. He was on Navigators(considered the dirty team in the US) but does anybody remember him busting their balls at the time? buddies with Phil Z and all. Or team Exergy where he was team-mates with one of the few US riders from that era who escaped any punishment, Fred Rodriguez. Did he ever call him out? From what I hear, Cooke was desperate to get a European gig but only started producing results into his 30s so nobody was interested. Clearly the rejection stung so he had to find another way to become relevant. I don't ever recall him being vocal on doping before last year.

This X 1000

Talked to one of Cooke's old teammates last week. He was laughing at Matt's new found clean babble. Said he always thought Matt was doping. Called him Mr Omerta, said everyone thought he was a doper. He was not just Phil Z's friend, he was his roommate when Phil was buying EPO from Papp. I think he might even be working for him now. He defended Phil aggressively even though he knew Phil was lying.

I fell for Cooke's fable for a while. Glad I found out the real story. What a weirdo

good to know. it seemed me very strange that he got so many retweets and kudos while he was busy busting Gaimon´s and Creed´s balls day in day out

 

[blackcat]

Re: B test

We called them the Nandrolonegators.

Cooke. That guy knew. Everybody did.

Zajicek and don't forget Kirk O'Bee. Both with lifetime bans. Both Navigators alumni.

Ed Beamon must be proud. Is he still working in the sport?

who else had a year? Ben Day and Hilton Clarke, gotta have some aussies on the team, otherwise it would not be a legit charging team. dont think Oneil tho on Navs

 

[nayr497]

Crazy to me that some of you know, or raced against, these dopers. Since I came to cycling later in life, I'm totally out of that realm of being that close to the PROs.

 

[Irondan]

Please, let's get back to the topic. No more general doping comments here in the 'Tom Danielson' thread. I've made the same request twice now, on the last two pages.

I'm going to delete any off topic posts from now on.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

Please, let's get back to the topic. No more general doping comments here in the 'Tom Danielson' thread. I've made the same request twice now, on the last two pages.

I'm going to delete any off topic posts from now on.

Maybe a few posts have been deleted since, but how are the last few posts not related to Danielson. Matt Cooke has been very critical of both JV and Danielson which is why he is in this discussion and Stevel Tilford just wrote an article on the same topics(Danielson/JV/Garmin) and has been a very vocal critic of Danielson in the past. Providing some background on those people is hardly off-topic. From responses posted, people are clearly getting a better picture of these particular people that they dodn't know much about previously.

If we have to start a thread for every single person like Cooke or Tilford, it will become silly.

 

[scottymontrose]

Re: B test

...

That is kinda irrelevant, as the question is would we have known their names in a clean sport. They faced the choice and chose to play the game. That applied to almost everyone from that era. Vandevelde was regarded as the most talented rider at Postal according to testimonies but had a moderate career. Zabriskie, likewise good enough for US junior teams etc so clearly talented. Ryder, I think most Canadians viewed him as a big talent from a young age. Only Danielson really bucks that trend. Very hard who to say from that era had the talent to make it.

Cooke is as much a hypocrite as the rest. He was on Navigators(considered the dirty team in the US) but does anybody remember him busting their balls at the time? buddies with Phil Z and all. Or team Exergy where he was team-mates with one of the few US riders from that era who escaped any punishment, Fred Rodriguez. Did he ever call him out? From what I hear, Cooke was desperate to get a European gig but only started producing results into his 30s so nobody was interested. Clearly the rejection stung so he had to find another way to become relevant. I don't ever recall him being vocal on doping before last year.

Don't disagree with your core points, but am questioning the snapshot history of some of the ex-posties.

Of all of them, we know that VdV was talented without dope. 'cuz he beat Lance in a TT when Lance wouldn't let him party with the team's secret sauce.

Ryder at a young age (U-23) was getting taught by Rasmussen how to do EPO. It is inescapable that he was doping in some form prior to that as it is difficult to believe that he just woke up one morning with an epiphany, 'hey the chicken knows about EPO maybe I should try it even though I have never done anything before'. Though, as we know, Ryder is the only athlete ever to have his performance suffer after using EPO.

Danielson not talented? Maybe. But, according to none other than Lance he was the heir apparent. Looks like that was the last time Lance endorsed him, though. Who knows, that praise may have been the sign that Lance was going to block TD from getting any opportunity for results lest he start to steal the spotlight.

Dave.

How can you be sure VDV was EVER clean? His father was a pro, knew what was necessary to race in Europe, and was able to open every door at USCF/USACycling for his boy from day 1. Was Chris Carmichael still natl. team coach when VDV came through the system?
Every dollar he has in the bank is dirty, and he just keeps cashing in. What a joke.

 

[MacRoadie]

Re: Re:

Please, let's get back to the topic. No more general doping comments here in the 'Tom Danielson' thread. I've made the same request twice now, on the last two pages.

I'm going to delete any off topic posts from now on.

Maybe a few posts have been deleted since, but how are the last few posts not related to Danielson. Matt Cooke has been very critical of both JV and Danielson which is why he is in this discussion and Stevel Tilford just wrote an article on the same topics(Danielson/JV/Garmin) and has been a very vocal critic of Danielson in the past. Providing some background on those people is hardly off-topic. From responses posted, people are clearly getting a better picture of these particular people that they dodn't know much about previously.

If we have to start a thread for every single person like Cooke or Tilford, it will become silly.

I agree. The discussion has been extremely civil and informative (and this is the clinic!). I should know, I've been here awhile.

Much of the last few pages has been excellent foundation and context for the situation surrounding Tommy D, the riders and team managers he has ridden with, his rise through the ranks, and the backgrounds and bona fides of those writing about his situation in the press and on blogs.

 

[Irondan]

I had no idea this was all backstory because the comments assumed that everyone knew the entire history of US pro cycling. I'm very informed but didn't know any of that or where it tied in with TD.

If I jumped the gun I take responsibility for my ignorance. I've been deleting the way off topic posts and perhaps spoke too quickly when I commented.

Apologies.

 

[joe_papp]

Re: B test

...

That is kinda irrelevant, as the question is would we have known their names in a clean sport. They faced the choice and chose to play the game. That applied to almost everyone from that era. Vandevelde was regarded as the most talented rider at Postal according to testimonies but had a moderate career. Zabriskie, likewise good enough for US junior teams etc so clearly talented. Ryder, I think most Canadians viewed him as a big talent from a young age. Only Danielson really bucks that trend. Very hard who to say from that era had the talent to make it.

Cooke is as much a hypocrite as the rest. He was on Navigators(considered the dirty team in the US) but does anybody remember him busting their balls at the time? buddies with Phil Z and all. Or team Exergy where he was team-mates with one of the few US riders from that era who escaped any punishment, Fred Rodriguez. Did he ever call him out? From what I hear, Cooke was desperate to get a European gig but only started producing results into his 30s so nobody was interested. Clearly the rejection stung so he had to find another way to become relevant. I don't ever recall him being vocal on doping before last year.

Don't disagree with your core points, but am questioning the snapshot history of some of the ex-posties.

Of all of them, we know that VdV was talented without dope. 'cuz he beat Lance in a TT when Lance wouldn't let him party with the team's secret sauce.

Ryder at a young age (U-23) was getting taught by Rasmussen how to do EPO. It is inescapable that he was doping in some form prior to that as it is difficult to believe that he just woke up one morning with an epiphany, 'hey the chicken knows about EPO maybe I should try it even though I have never done anything before'. Though, as we know, Ryder is the only athlete ever to have his performance suffer after using EPO.

Danielson not talented? Maybe. But, according to none other than Lance he was the heir apparent. Looks like that was the last time Lance endorsed him, though. Who knows, that praise may have been the sign that Lance was going to block TD from getting any opportunity for results lest he start to steal the spotlight.

Dave.

How can you be sure VDV was EVER clean? His father was a pro, knew what was necessary to race in Europe, and was able to open every door at USCF/USACycling for his boy from day 1. Was Chris Carmichael still natl. team coach when VDV came through the system?
Every dollar he has in the bank is dirty, and he just keeps cashing in. What a joke.

I can't speak to Danielson's issues, but I will go out on a limb and say that VdV was clean at least for the time in 1996 when we were roommates on nat'l team.

The only thing he 'doped' w/ then was the air-conditioning, which he would turn up so high that hypothermia seemed a genuine risk.

 

[MacRoadie]

Re:

I had no idea this was all backstory because the comments assumed that everyone knew the entire history of US pro cycling. I'm very informed but didn't know any of that or where it tied in with TD.

If I jumped the gun I take responsibility for my ignorance. I've been deleting the way off topic posts and perhaps spoke too quickly when I commented.

Apologies.

Not a problem at all. Some of us do tend to forget that not everyone is as close to cycling (and in this case US cycling in particular) as others.

As long as things don't get snarky and people are interested in both sharing AND learning, with a little patience many will be amazed at how many disparate threads end up connecting and creating the same web of doping here in the States. It just takes time to take it all in and allow the dots to connect as each poster brings their own insight and experience to the topic.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: B test

We called them the Nandrolonegators.

Cooke. That guy knew. Everybody did.

Zajicek and don't forget Kirk O'Bee. Both with lifetime bans. Both Navigators alumni.

Ed Beamon must be proud. Is he still working in the sport?

Found Ed Beamon: http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/newswire/ed-beamon-joins-team-tibco-for-2015/#.Vc0lQSmCOJI

He's the Johan Bruyneel of N. American cycling.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re:

I had no idea this was all backstory because the comments assumed that everyone knew the entire history of US pro cycling. I'm very informed but didn't know any of that or where it tied in with TD.

If I jumped the gun I take responsibility for my ignorance. I've been deleting the way off topic posts and perhaps spoke too quickly when I commented.

Apologies.

It'll get back on track after Danielson's B sample result is made public.

It's been an interesting detour in the meantime. I think you're right in allowing it.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: B test

...


How can you be sure VDV was EVER clean? His father was a pro, knew what was necessary to race in Europe, and was able to open every door at USCF/USACycling for his boy from day 1. Was Chris Carmichael still natl. team coach when VDV came through the system?
Every dollar he has in the bank is dirty, and he just keeps cashing in. What a joke.

I can't speak to Danielson's issues, but I will go out on a limb and say that VdV was clean at least for the time in 1996 when we were roommates on nat'l team.

The only thing he 'doped' w/ then was the air-conditioning, which he would turn up so high that hypothermia seemed a genuine risk.

Thanks Joe,

Hi Scott,

I have my sources, but I thought that story was pretty much common knowledge. It has been discussed here before, in multiple threads. And, it can probably be confirmed through the Reasoned Decision.

Lance didn't like VdV, and wouldn't let him in on the white bag program. Then, unbeknownst to Lance or VdV, there was a practice TT at one of the Postie training camps in Solvang where an undoped VdV beat Lance. JB falsified VdV's time, however, allegedly because he didn't want Lance to find out.

Thus, once upon a time a non-charged VdV beat a charged Lance in a TT. But, that was then...

Dave.