Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 5: Pau - Laruns, 162.7k

[JosefK]

Dont think even @Libertine Seguros can have a bad word towards Kuss today, I dont like him much either, but credit where its due. Hell of a performance

Kuss has been the best mountain domestique of 2023, so far. He saved Rog's Giro at the beginning of the 3rd week, and he launched Vingo perfectly today, then latched onto poor Pog like an anchor.

 

[GroupDK]

2023 | 20'58min | J.Vingegaard - RECORD
2020 | 22'27min | T.Pogacar, P.Roglic

source (link), final CDMB-climb?
Didnt Vingegaard gained like 38 sec on the final climb to Pogacar (last 1½km) and then elevated it on the descent.. if so, the whole front group kept a pace significant higher than fx 2020 and it can be done even faster when it was merely 1½ km of intense get-away pace..

 

[Izzyeviel]

Now that the tour is over, what will happen in the Vuelta?

Pogacar V Thomas V Remco V Landa V Ayuso

 

[Boehmand]

With Bernal at 4 minutes and Pidders at 2:36, I wonder if Ineos has found a new GC contender to support.

They shouldn't be riding GC at all.

Better both drop 20 minutes tomorrow, and then focus on hitting breaks.

 

[GroupDK]

Cicconi didn’t look upset when he told Vinge to buzz off.

* after the race, seemed annoyed with (2) looks like it was down to team orders.

 

[Volderke]

It was UAE’s fault for chasing, Vingegaard would have taken a minute anyway, and from the shots I saw Wout bridged to the break after it already had 10+ guys in it and multiple JV. Maybe he rode more than others but I think this is a bit of an exaggeration.

The fact they were far beyond the fastest schedule proves the race was ridden hard, and what better place to have Wva than in the breakaway: he isn’t fast enough on the climbs but keeps the average very high so the peloton can’t allow e.g. Hindley to get a big gap for free. It was UAE’s responsability to defend the jersey and for sure it wasn’t jumbo’s day to ride with 2 guys in the break. Wva tried several times to make the break, and as usual, he did so until the peloton broke. We’ve seen this now happening for 3 years: if Wva wants to be in the break, he will always be in the break.

 

[Cagalitroso]

Lots of time without visiting The Clinic. off to read what's new over there

 

[Rackham]

Pogacar V Thomas V Remco V Landa V Ayuso

Roglič is going to the Vuelta.

And Landa hasn't been a serious GC contender since... forever. The man, the myth, the legend of Landismo... who gets dropped in every GT when it matters.

He has some of the best & most loyal committed fans though, I'll give him that.

 

[Salvarani]

Jonas was great last year, but I don't think his 2022 self could have done what he did today.

It is been for all to see, that he is even better than last year going into this race. He has been dominating except for in P-N.

 

[bNator]

The fact they were far beyond the fastest schedule proves the race was ridden hard, and what better place to have Wva than in the breakaway: he isn’t fast enough on the climbs but keeps the average very high so the peloton can’t allow e.g. Hindley to get a big gap for free. It was UAE’s responsability to defend the jersey and for sure it wasn’t jumbo’s day to ride with 2 guys in the break. Wva tried several times to make the break, and as usual, he did so until the peloton broke. We’ve seen this now happening for 3 years: if Wva wants to be in the break, he will always be in the break.

I wonder what happens if UAE decides to call their bluff, though? Just stop pedalling altogether and decide they don't want to "defend the jersey" and since it's Vinge's Tour to lose (which they claimed before the beginnig of the Tour but looks like they didn't really mean it) it won't help him much that they had 2 guys in a break once they lose 5 minutes to Hindley and Ciccione in GC.

I was playing with that idea the entire stage. They sure messed up for not trying it...

 

[Elos Anjos]

A tactical masterclass from WvA. For those still wondering what his value is:

1. He forced the break of the day;
2. He had some decent GC guys / climbers in the group, so by pushing very hard, he single-handedly forced UAE, who had no one in the break, to decimate half of their team;
3. When his own bid for glory was gone, he forced the pace in the front group, helping his team to drop all UAE riders, so the moment pogacar was dropped, he didn’t have any team mates.

So again, while people’s memory is still fresh, WvA was the key rider that contributed significantly to Vingegaard’s successful attack and the amount of time that was ultimately gained.

Sorry, but this take is full of logical holes - and probably the people that LIKED it - overviews the likelihood that WVA is not omniscient. He didn't have any plan whatsoever, the brake and the peleton team dynamics just made it a constant improvised approach that in hindsight seems to be justified only by both a mastermind and helpful rider.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Just finished watching a replay of the last 60km, so, so very happy for Jai Hindley!

 

[Boehmand]

The one big mistake UAE did today was, to not call back Soler and Grosschartner immidiately when they realised Hindley was in the group, and then close down that break immediately.

Same group out in front, but without him, they could have easily given 7-8 minutes, and then it becomes a question if Vingegaard would have put in a dig on the last climb at all.

He might still have, but then at least Pogacar would have had teammates left to ride pace to the finish, to limit the loss.

 

[Nick2413]

I wonder what happens if UAE decides to call their bluff, though? Just stop pedalling altogether and decide they don't want to "defend the jersey" and since it's Vinge's Tour to lose (which they claimed before the beginnig of the Tour but looks like they didn't really mean it) it won't help him much that they had 2 guys in a break once they lose 5 minutes to Hindley and Ciccione in GC.

I was playing with that idea the entire stage. They sure messed up for not trying it...

Onus was on Jumbo to chase, no matter how many guys they have in the break. Ended up being irrelevant, Pog wasn’t staying on Vingegaard’s wheel just because Bjerg and Grosschartner haven’t died yet

 

[Volderke]

Sorry, but this take is full of logical holes - and probably the people that LIKED it - overviews the likelihood that WVA is not omniscient. He didn't have any plan whatsoever, the brake and the peleton team dynamics just made it a constant improvised approach that in hindsight seems to be justified only by both a mastermind and helpful rider.

I just read his interview after the race, and it was his aim to make the race hard. Pogacar will now have felt he shouldn’t make jokes about Wva not having the legs (yesterday he said this after the sprint with Philipsen).
Jumbo knows very well that Wva in a breakaway can destroy 80% of the peloton and he did exactly that. Without Wva, UAE would have more riders on the last climb and more chance of a rider close to Pogacar, if the same scenario (dropped by Vingegaard) happened.

 

[Mayomaniac]

source (link), final CDMB-climb?
Didnt Vingegaard gained like 38 sec on the final climb to Pogacar (last 1½km) and then elevated it on the descent.. if so, the whole front group kept a pace significant higher than fx 2020 and it can be done even faster when it was merely 1½ km of intense get-away pace..

Yes, according to Strava even Pidcock was 8sec faster than 2020 Pogacar...

 

[Volderke]

I wonder what happens if UAE decides to call their bluff, though? Just stop pedalling altogether and decide they don't want to "defend the jersey" and since it's Vinge's Tour to lose (which they claimed before the beginnig of the Tour but looks like they didn't really mean it) it won't help him much that they had 2 guys in a break once they lose 5 minutes to Hindley and Ciccione in GC.

I was playing with that idea the entire stage. They sure messed up for not trying it...

Always an option, but it’s almost unheard that UAE with the yellow Jersey and 2-times winner pogacar will not not ride. It would have been very interesting if they didn’t ride, to say the least…!

 

[BigCoward]

Pogacar V Thomas V Remco V Landa V Ayuso

Maybe Mas and Carapaz? Could be a lot more interesting .
I bet Remco was watching today thinking 'Giro & Vuelta again next year'.

 

[Oldermanish]

Jonas was great last year, but I don't think his 2022 self could have done what he did today.

I don't know. That effort was both opportunistic but was also setup well by UAE. Tadej just couldn't jump after Kuss ran everyone's meter to the red zone.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

The one big mistake UAE did today was, to not call back Soler and Grosschartner immidiately when they realised Hindley was in the group, and then close down that break immediately.

Same group out in front, but without him, they could have easily given 7-8 minutes, and then it becomes a question if Vingegaard would have put in a dig on the last climb at all.

He might still have, but then at least Pogacar would have had teammates left to ride pace to the finish, to limit the loss.

If UAE didn't chase the break today we could've seen a scenario where Vingegaard still drops Pogacar and then he would've had both WVA and Benoot on top of Marie Blanque and the difference between them would've been even bigger at the finish. I think when the break went it was important for them to pace hard enough to catch WVA and Benoot before the top of MB and they did that.

I dont think they really paced that hard during the stage either. Laengen made it over the top of Soudet and they lost (a little bit of?) time to front group in the first part of Marie Blanque before Jumbo took over.

When Vingegaard is so much stronger than Pogacar not even a different tactic could save them.

 

[Riek s]

If UAE didn't chase the break today we could've seen a scenario where Vingegaard still drops Pogacar and then he would've had both WVA and Benoot on top of Marie Blanque and the difference between them would've been even bigger at the finish. I think when the break went it was important for them to pace hard enough to catch WVA and Benoot before the top of MB and they did that.

I dont think they really paced that hard during the stage either. Laengen made it over the top of Soudet and they lost (a little bit of?) time to front group in the first part of Marie Blanque before Jumbo took over.

When Vingegaard is so much stronger than Pogacar not even a different tactic could save them.

true, and you can't blame Pogacar because his numbers are what they should be.

Unless Vingegaard has a breakdown/bad day, it will be very hard to get back time on him. (Maybe he can try a Flandis'ke..)

 

[Barnacle Bill]

2. He had some decent GC guys / climbers in the group, so by pushing very hard, he single-handedly forced UAE, who had no one in the break, to decimate half of their team;

Don't forget secret-weapon Soler
(I was pretty curious about what he'd get up to tbh, not much in the end)

 

[RobertCrawley]

I just read his interview after the race, and it was his aim to make the race hard. Pogacar will now have felt he shouldn’t make jokes about Wva not having the legs (yesterday he said this after the sprint with Philipsen).
Jumbo knows very well that Wva in a breakaway can destroy 80% of the peloton and he did exactly that. Without Wva, UAE would have more riders on the last climb and more chance of a rider close to Pogacar, if the same scenario (dropped by Vingegaard) happened.

I'm sure Jumbo took note of Pog's dissing of WVA. They had a little extra motivation because of that, and they are celebrating a little more on the team bus because of that. But that bit of business is relatively minor to their goals. They are not in France to put socks on centipedes.

Agreed it was great strategy and execution to isolate Pog and set up Jonas' move. Great cycling watching today!

 

[Boehmand]

If UAE didn't chase the break today we could've seen a scenario where Vingegaard still drops Pogacar and then he would've had both WVA and Benoot on top of Marie Blanque and the difference between them would've been even bigger at the finish. I think when the break went it was important for them to pace hard enough to catch WVA and Benoot before the top of MB and they did that.

I dont think they really paced that hard during the stage either. Laengen made it over the top of Soudet and they lost (a little bit of?) time to front group in the first part of Marie Blanque before Jumbo took over.

When Vingegaard is so much stronger than Pogacar not even a different tactic could save them.

If neither UAE nor Jumbo chased, Hindley would have gotten 5 minutes - which neither Jumbo or UAE would want.

 

[Andy schleck]

And they said that vingegaard was a boring rider.