Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 7: Mont-de-Marsan - Bordeaux, 169.9k

[proffate]

Did you notice how Philipsen didn't say the same about Girmay?

Do you know why they hate eachother so much? They both rode G-W and I never even saw them chatting there.

Did you watch the intermediate sprint? P gave G a fist bump. Doesn't seem hateful to me.

 

[Cookster15]

What happened to Caleb Ewan ?

 

[kingjr]

But he DID squeeze Girmay into the barrier.

Intent is not the issue - and makes no sense to debate when none of us can know.

I am speaking to the changes in direction, because of the rules on maintaining your lane in a sprint.

From where Philipsen started, he had a wide open lane to the line, there was no need for him to change lanes, and when it resulted in impeeding another rider that he did change lanes, it became a rule infraction.

"intent is not the issue"

You're the one who said, "went clear across the road to close the gap [...] on Girmay".

 

[RobertCrawley]

What happened to Caleb Ewan ?

I think he lost the battle for Philipsen's wheel and called it a day.

 

[postmanhat]

Dunno what it is with Ewan. Everything has to go right for him. Why he gave up so far from the line is anyone's guess . He only lost a few positions then switched off. Bizarre.

That's how he's been in WT big bunch sprints for a while now. Good signs in his recent Pro races, and the first two sprint stages here, he looked really up for it for again. Today though was just back to his bad habits of sitting up as soon as things got slightly aggressive.

Such a shame, as he's obviously still got the speed.

 

[kingjr]

Did you notice how Philipsen didn't say the same about Girmay?

Do you know why they hate eachother so much? They both rode G-W and I never even saw them chatting there.

I didn't realize they had a camera in G-W dedicated to watching Girmay and Philipsen for the entire race

 

[proffate]

That's how he's been in WT big bunch sprints for a while now. Good signs in his recent Pro races, and the first two sprint stages here, he looked really up for it for again. Today though was just back to his bad habits of sitting up as soon as things got slightly aggressive.

It's only a problem if you're silly enough to pick him on your fantasy team. Ewan said he only cares about wins. If he thinks the chances of a win are down to 1% and the chances of a crash going for that win are at 5%, it makes sense to sit up and wait for the next day.

(This is why Coquard is on my team, that mofo will scrap for whatever place he can possibly get.)

 

[tobydawq]

In two out of three wins he made very questionable moves that easily could have seen hin relegated, he is benefiting massively from insanely good leadouts by MvdP and currently his opposition is pretty meh.

It's not that he isn't a very good sprinter but he really has a lot going for him right now.

His opposition is not meh, are you kidding me... Who else should be in this race to make the sprinting field better?

 

[Boehmand]

What do you mean "close the gap to the right of Cavendish"? Cav himself closed the door on the right side. If Cav hadn't done that, Girmay could have tried to pass on Cav's right.

The deviations that are penalized happen when a slowing rider knows he will get passed and changes lines purely to prevent that from happening. Phillipsen was the one doing the passing and he had a perfectly good reason to ride where he did, which was to benefit from Cav's slipstream. That Girmay had the same idea (with poorer execution) was just a coincidence. As soon as Phillipsen got close to Cav, Girmay handed him the wheel.

I doubt you've ever raced because this is exactly what sprinting consists of. It's a game of chicken where might makes right.

It doesn't matter what Cavendish did, because he was clear of Girmay so didn't impede him by edging up against the barrier. You can change lanes if it does not impede another rider, you cannot if it does, such are the rules.

Penalties on deviation do not just apply to slowing riders, obviously, if they did all sprinters would swing wildly from side to side to keep everyone behind them, Abdoujaparov style - and he is a big reason we have the rules we do.

I doubt you have ever raced too

 

[Devil's Elbow]

It's only a problem if you're silly enough to pick him on your fantasy team. Ewan said he only cares about wins. If he thinks the chances of a win are down to 1% and the chances of a crash going for that win are at 5%, it makes sense to sit up and wait for the next day.

(This is why Coquard is on my team, that mofo will scrap for whatever place he can possibly get.)

No other sprinter sits up anywhere near as frequently as him. It's not reflective of a winner mentality, but of a quitter mentality.

 

[RobertCrawley]

No other sprinter sits up anywhere near as frequently as him. It's not reflective of a winner mentality, but of a quitter mentality.

Well, to be fair, how many of us here could handle the dangers of a bunch sprint.

 

[Fantastico]

His opposition as not meh, are you kidding me... Who else should be in this race to make the sprinting field better?

I wouldn't say the competition is meh either. I think the other sprinters just struggle a lot with getting positioned, while Philipsen is both fast and starts the sprints in great positions (having van der Poel doing the leadouts of course does him a huge favor in that regard). I mean, Ewan is the perfect example. When he was perfectly positioned, he was basically on par with Philipsen, but he has a hard time to get in a great position.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

I'm also not sure about how much he actually "endangered" Girmay, as I've seen way worse moves in many sprint finishes, and of course fighting for positions is part of being a sprinter. But at least we shouldn't act like Philipsen just follows van der Poel's wheel or just tries to get to Cavendish's wheel etc. To me it's clear that he changes his lane on purpose to impede others in their sprint. He is clever enough to do it at the edge of what is allowed (or let's better say "of what is tolerated"), though.

No, he clearly changed line to get on Cavendish wheel because for as much as VdP pull was monstrous, it still left him at 300+ meter to go. Then we can discuss the legality of pushing another rider of someone's wheel, but if someone deviated to slow down another rider purposely it was Cavendish doing that to Philipsen.

 

[Boehmand]

"intent is not the issue"

You're the one who said, "went clear across the road to close the gap [...] on Girmay".

Sure, he's a smart rider, but the point is "intent" does not factor into this from the standpoint of the rules.

Impeeding through deviation doesn't take into account whether you meant to do it.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

His opposition as not meh, are you kidding me... Who else should be in this race to make the sprinting field better?

This generation of sprinters just isn't that great. IMO there is nobody on the level of prime Cipollini, Petacchi, Cavendish, Greipel or Kittel here when it comes to flat sprints, and that includes Philipsen himself.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Did you notice how Philipsen didn't say the same about Girmay?

Do you know why they hate eachother so much? They both rode G-W and I never even saw them chatting there.

I love all the beef we’re finding out between the riders.

Well, to be fair, how many of us here could handle the dangers of a bunch sprint.

I’d be happy to finish within 10 mins on a pan flat stage against the pros.

 

[kingjr]

It doesn't matter what Cavendish did, because he was clear of Girmay so didn't impede him by edging up against the barrier. You can change lanes if it does not impede another rider, you cannot if it does, such are the rules.

Penalties on deviation do not just apply to slowing riders, obviously, if they did all sprinters would swing wildly from side to side to keep everyone behind them, Abdoujaparov style - and he is a bit reason we have the rules we do.

I doubt you have ever raced too

So Cavendish should be relegated, too, for moving from the right barrier almost to the middle of the road when Philipsen passed him?

 

[KOM]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1677343038069411842

View: https://twitter.com/nealrogers/status/1677343038069411842?s=20


Aww FFS, cant say if it was the difference between winning and finishing 2nd though, but still sucks

 

[xo 1]

What do you mean "close the gap to the right of Cavendish"? Cav himself closed the door on the right side. If Cav hadn't done that, Girmay could have tried to pass on Cav's right.

The deviations that are penalized happen when a slowing rider knows he will get passed and changes lines purely to prevent that from happening. Phillipsen was the one doing the passing and he had a perfectly good reason to ride where he did, which was to benefit from Cav's slipstream. That Girmay had the same idea (with poorer execution) was just a coincidence. As soon as Phillipsen got close to Cav, Girmay handed him the wheel.

I doubt you've ever raced because this is exactly what sprinting consists of. It's a game of chicken where might makes right.

Helpful analysis. I have never raced, and I am lost when watching a sprint. Everything seems too fast and too dangerous. This narrative tracks with what I saw. It also properly credits Phillipsen for what was a dominant sprint. To win by that margin in a straight-in race is flabbergasting. Cav nailed it but couldn't hold off the much-faster guy.

 

[postmanhat]

It's only a problem if you're silly enough to pick him on your fantasy team. Ewan said he only cares about wins. If he thinks the chances of a win are down to 1% and the chances of a crash going for that win are at 5%, it makes sense to sit up and wait for the next day.

(This is why Coquard is on my team, that mofo will scrap for whatever place he can possibly get.)

In his head, his might only care about wins. In reality, he's riding for a team who care about UCI points and his habit of sitting up has cost them a lot of them?

 

[kingjr]

Sure, he's a smart rider, but the point is "intent" does not factor into this from the standpoint of the rules.

Impeeding through deviation doesn't take into account whether you meant to do it.

Then why did you bring it up?

 

[Boehmand]

So Cavendish should be relegated, too, for moving from the right barrier almost to the middle of the road when Philipsen passed him?

Again, you can change lanes all you like, if it does not impede anyone.

 

[SHAD0W93]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1677343038069411842

View: https://twitter.com/nealrogers/status/1677343038069411842?s=20


Aww FFS, cant say if it was the difference between winning and finishing 2nd though, but still sucks

That at least explains why he almost crashed going over the speed bump.

 

[Boehmand]

Then why did you bring it up?

Why not? It's what happened.

But either way it's besides the point, if it makes you happy, we can just say he didn't intend to squeeze Girmay into the barrier, but did so by mistake.

 

[Bolder]

That's how he's been in WT big bunch sprints for a while now. Good signs in his recent Pro races, and the first two sprint stages here, he looked really up for it for again. Today though was just back to his bad habits of sitting up as soon as things got slightly aggressive.

Such a shame, as he's obviously still got the speed.

I think that bad crash in 2021 with Sagan messed with his head a little bit. And physically, too.