Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 7: Mont-de-Marsan - Bordeaux, 169.9k

[RobertCrawley]

I think that bad crash in 2021 with Sagan messed with his head a little bit. And physically, too.

Talk about controversial . . .

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Problem is, Philipsen doesn't deviate by the rules because he hasn't opened up his sprint yet. He's just fighting for a wheel where often a lot of leeway is given to the rider who's "ahead". He's definitely slightly in front of Girmay and Girmay also let's the gap to Cavs wheel open up. But he's at the same time still forcing him to break so you could argue it's a dangerous move and requires relegation. The thing is, these sort of moves happen everywhere in a sprint and you can't relegate half the field so they'll do nothing. Typical grey area stuff where it's hard to define what's allowed in fighting for wheels.

 

[kingjr]

Again, you can change lanes all you like, if it does not impede anyone.

impede = delay or prevent (someone or something) by obstructing them; hinder.

That is exactly what he did to Philipsen, it just didn't affect the final result because they were too far from the line. Oh, and also, imagine for a second what could have happened if someone had been trying to overtake Philipsen on the left at the same time when Cav made that move, they could have clipped wheels and caused a massive pile-up.

 

[proffate]

It doesn't matter what Cavendish did, because he was clear of Girmay so didn't impede him by edging up against the barrier. You can change lanes if it does not impede another rider, you cannot if it does, such are the rules.

Penalties on deviation do not just apply to slowing riders, obviously, if they did all sprinters would swing wildly from side to side to keep everyone behind them, Abdoujaparov style - and he is a bit reason we have the rules we do.

I doubt you have ever raced too

Cav obviously did impede Girmay because Girmay would have had somewhere to go if Cav suddenly vanished. Cav's body blocked Girmay's body. Was it illegal? No. Bodies impede each other in mass start races. But Cav's rightward move was closer to illegal than what Phillipsen did, because Cav mainly did it to prevent a pass on the right. (wisely I might add, as in another world Phillipsen wasn't fast enough to pass but was just fast enough to box in Girmay)

Riders who are not slowing relative to the rest of the field, and who are ahead, have no need to "swing wildly", whatever that means, because they are going to win. How can you be ahead, and going faster, and get passed, regardless of how vertical your bike is? Why would anyone create a rule about this?

 

[RobertCrawley]

Problem is, Philipsen doesn't deviate by the rules because he hasn't opened up his sprint yet. He's just fighting for a wheel where often a lot of leeway is given to the rider who's "ahead". He's definitely slightly in front of Girmay and Girmay also let's the gap to Cavs wheel open up. But he's at the same time still forcing him to break so you could argue it's a dangerous move and requires relegation. The thing is, these sort of moves happen everywhere in a sprint and you can't relegate half the field so they'll do nothing. Typical grey area stuff where it's hard to define what's allowed in fighting for wheels.

Agree with this.

 

[dobrien]

Maybe he's less of a "pure" sprinter (he's been building a bit of a classics resume) but if he isn't dominant surely there must be someone who is close. But is there?

If Cav had MVDP for a leadout no one would have touched him today. Philipsen is a different flavor of Sam Bennet and Elia Viviani; without the train they aren't winning.

And I like Philipsen well enough btw, nothing personal. He just isn't Cav..

 

[ManicJack]

If you don't see a pattern...

Oh, I see a pattern. It's called winning.

 

[Didinho]

Problem is, Philipsen doesn't deviate by the rules because he hasn't opened up his sprint yet. He's just fighting for a wheel where often a lot of leeway is given to the rider who's "ahead". He's definitely slightly in front of Girmay and Girmay also let's the gap to Cavs wheel open up. But he's at the same time still forcing him to break so you could argue it's a dangerous move and requires relegation. The thing is, these sort of moves happen everywhere in a sprint and you can't relegate half the field so they'll do nothing. Typical grey area stuff where it's hard to define what's allowed in fighting for wheels.

At the live images I also first thought it was a little bit over the grey area, but he didn’t push Bini to the right because he was already there. Bini keeps going straight but brakes before they could touch. Opening the sprint is always something like this but it could go either way with relegation.

 

[Boehmand]

impede = delay or prevent (someone or something) by obstructing them; hinder.

That is exactly what he did to Philipsen, it just didn't affect the final result because they were too far from the line. Oh, and also, imagine for a second what could have happened if someone had been trying to overtake Philipsen on the left at the same time when Cav made that move, they could have clipped wheels and caused a massive pile-up.

Are you talking about Cav?

Sure, he deviated to impede too.

So we are in agreement that Philipsen should be penalised?

 

[Boehmand]

Cav obviously did impede Girmay because Girmay would have had somewhere to go if Cav suddenly vanished. Cav's body blocked Girmay's body. Was it illegal? No. Bodies impede each other in mass start races. But Cav's rightward move was closer to illegal than what Phillipsen did, because Cav mainly did it to prevent a pass on the right. (wisely I might add, as in another world Phillipsen wasn't fast enough to pass but was just fast enough to box in Girmay)

Riders who are not slowing relative to the rest of the field, and who are ahead, have no need to "swing wildly", whatever that means, because they are going to win. How can you be ahead, and going faster, and get passed, regardless of how vertical your bike is? Why would anyone create a rule about this?

You don't know who Abdoujaparov is, do you?

And as said ad nauseam by now, you can deviate all you like, as long as you do not impede someone by doing it.

Cav can move to the barrier to close the gap, as long as he is a full bike length in front of Girmay. Less than a bike length he cannot if it forces Girmay to break, without being in breach of the rules.

It's exactly why Skjelmose and Bettiol got relegated the other day.

 

[RobertCrawley]

If Cav had MVDP for a leadout no one would have touched him today. Philipsen is a different flavor of Sam Bennet and Elia Viviani; without the train they aren't winning.

And I like Philipsen well enough btw, nothing personal. He just isn't Cav..

Phil? Phil Liggett?

 

[Didinho]

If Cav had MVDP for a leadout no one would have touched him today. Philipsen is a different flavor of Sam Bennet and Elia Viviani; without the train they aren't winning.

And I like Philipsen well enough btw, nothing personal. He just isn't Cav..

Before he started winning more he was known to be good at waiving through the peloton and positioning but lacked the pure top speed. Last year he also didn’t need his train (especially Mathieu) to win. He just got a bit stronger every year and now with a good leadout.

 

[proffate]

Are you talking about Cav?

Sure, he deviated to impede too.

So we are in agreement that Philipsen should be penalised?

sure, let's relegate everyone until the rider you like wins

 

[kingjr]

Are you talking about Cav?

Sure, he deviated to impede too.

So we are in agreement that Philipsen should be penalised?

Are you deliberately trying to obfuscate, or are you struggling to follow the conversation?

 

[Fantastico]

Problem is, Philipsen doesn't deviate by the rules because he hasn't opened up his sprint yet. He's just fighting for a wheel where often a lot of leeway is given to the rider who's "ahead". He's definitely slightly in front of Girmay and Girmay also let's the gap to Cavs wheel open up. But he's at the same time still forcing him to break so you could argue it's a dangerous move and requires relegation. The thing is, these sort of moves happen everywhere in a sprint and you can't relegate half the field so they'll do nothing. Typical grey area stuff where it's hard to define what's allowed in fighting for wheels.

I argued for a different perspective before, but I admit, that's a reasonable explanation.

 

[ManicJack]

I think someone should post a copy of the rules that you all think you are so certain about.

 

[staubsauger]

He won three stages, and green, in the 2021 Vuelta.

Yeah he looked totally back in the game then, but has completely stalled ever since!

 

[proffate]

Before he started winning more he was known to be good at waiving through the peloton and positioning. Last year he also didn’t need his train (especially Mathieu). He just got a bit stronger every year and now with a good leadout.

This. They build a train for you when you can finish it off.

I think someone should post a copy of the rules that you all think you are so certain about.

good idea.

Sprints2.3.036 Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launchinginto the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others.

This is a terribly written rule. What exactly consists of "launching"?

 

[Boehmand]

sure, let's relegate everyone until the rider you like wins

It's got nothing to do with "like", I don't have a particular preference between Philipsen, Cavendish and Girmay, and find all 3 quite sympathetic.

 

[RobertCrawley]

I think someone should post a copy of the rules that you all think you are so certain about.

We're discussion the "unwritten rules of cycling."

(That was a joke, by the way.)

 

[SHAD0W93]

sure, let's relegate everyone until the rider you like wins

I think 1st-24th should get relegated honestly

 

[RobertCrawley]

This. They build a train for you when you can finish it off.

good idea.


This is a terribly written rule. What exactly consists of "launching"?

Pushing a pedal down really hard, I believe.

 

[Boehmand]

Are you deliberately trying to obfuscate, or are you struggling to follow the conversation?

Temper, temper young man

What exactly is it you lack a reply to?

 

[kingjr]

Temper, temper young man

What exactly is it you lack a reply to?

From 20 min ago:
"So Cavendish should be relegated, too, for moving from the right barrier almost to the middle of the road when Philipsen passed him?"

 

[Boehmand]

Pushing a pedal down really hard, I believe.

Quite easy to argue Philipsen "launched" when he left MvdP's wheel, as a reaction to Cavendish having already launched his sprint.

It can't be when you push past the front rider also already sprinting, because by that standard only the winner ever truly "launched".