UCI appeals Contador decision

[Merckx index]

ASO has said they won't stop Bert from riding the Tour. I really don't understand the decision, they kept his team out in 2008 when he hadn't tested positive, but there it is.

If you want to blame someone, blame RFEC for clearing him. Once he was cleared, I don’t blame Bert at all for returning to racing. Suppose he stopped racing, and he was cleared at the end of August. He’s missed a chance to ride any one of this year’s GTs. I don’t think he will be cleared, I don’t think he should be cleared, but his desire not to throw away an entire season unnecessarily is entirely understandable.

There doesn’t seem to be much downside for him. If he had remained sidelined when he was cleared in February, and then was given a 2 year suspension by CAS say at the end of this August, he would have been eligible to return to racing I believe on July 21, 2012. So he would have lost his 2010 TDF, all results in 2011, and any chance for the TDF in 2012. He would in principle be able to ride the Vuelta in 2012, but he would have very little time to race in preparation for that. And remember he would not have raced at all for more than two years at that point. That’s a long layoff to come off of and do well in a GT, even for him.

Now suppose he loses his case after he has been racing this season. He loses the 2010 TDF, and all of his 2011 results. Since he served about four and a half months suspension, I believe that with a two year suspension, dating from the end of this August and taking into account time served, he would be eligible to return around the middle of April 2013. So while he would lose a chance to ride in the 2012 Vuelta, which he probably couldn’t have prepared adequately for anyway, and early season races in 2013, he would probably still be able to prepare adequately for the 2013 Tour.

There are other advantages to continuing to race now. If he had stayed suspended, he would have been out of racing for almost two consecutive seasons, a layoff that might be difficult to come back from very quickly. As it stands now, if he loses his case he will mostly miss just one full season, next year. If he rides the TDF this year he will be pretty much finished for this season after that, anyway, and as I said, he would miss only a few early races in 2013. Also, though he would lose all his results for 2011 no matter how he played it, history will not forget that those results.

All of this assumes a two year suspension, of course. I don't see how a sanction can be any less. If CAS actually buys the contaminated meat theory, he should not be suspended at all IMO. There is already precedent with that Danish rider, and arguably, IF you buy the meat scenario--as much as the evidence indicates against it--Bert's situation is better than the Danish guy's. Because one could argue that the Danish guy should have known that meat in Mexico might be contaminated (I think it was Colo who got a 1 year suspension for the same situation, the logic there apparently that he should have known, that he was partly at fault), whereas Bert at least has all the evidence in the world on his side when he argues he should not have to take care in eating Spanish meat.

If CAS does rule a one year suspension, though, and they don't accept UCI's request to vacate all of this year's results, I could see a much brighter situation for Bert. They could argue that this year's results are valid, because he tested negative throughout. Giving him credit for time served, they could allow him to come back next April, having lost nothing at all except his 2010 TDF title. I don't think this is the right way to go, but if there is any politics going on, I can see a push for a resolution like this. A suspension and lost TDF title allows everyone to say that they're cracking down even on the biggest star, while his return next spring would mean that he effectively doesn't miss any important races.

 

[D-Queued]

...If you want to blame someone, blame RFEC for clearing him

...

If CAS does rule a one year suspension, though, and they don't accept UCI's request to vacate all of this year's results, I could see a much brighter situation for Bert. They could argue that this year's results are valid, because he tested negative throughout. Giving him credit for time served, they could allow him to come back next April, having lost nothing at all except his 2010 TDF title. I don't think this is the right way to go, but if there is any politics going on, I can see a push for a resolution like this. A suspension and lost TDF title allows everyone to say that they're cracking down even on the biggest star, while his return next spring would mean that he effectively doesn't miss any important races.

There is. And, ultimately, that is why blaming the RFEC doesn't mean much.

This is starting to look a lot like Spain is pulling whatever strings it can to have themselves an other 5x TdF winner to go along with the "Golden Age" of Spanish sport.

The parallels between the current situation and the Festina suspensions are also hard to miss. Ultimately Hein shortened the suspensions so that the Festina cyclists could ride the next Tour.

That the UCI has already put such a scenario on the table is telling.

"We will ask for disqualification of all the results since the day of the (doping) control," Carpani told The Associated Press by telephone. "However, the UCI is open to any decision taken by the CAS and will accept it without any problem."

In other words, 'hey you guys. Maybe you didn't think of this. But, if you want to not mess up the record books, you can always suspend him from the decision date...'

Then, if it is only a one year suspension, AC gets the royal Festina treatment. Feel free to ride in whatever races you want, but you will be suspended between them.

Dave.

 

[python]

more long-winded verbosity that hasn't been warranted by the new developments or new facts...the case PUBLIC factuals are just about where they were in november, january or april. except of course, that contador keeps racing and winning. is that the news ?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I strongly urge everyone not to make any important moral decisions before consulting the collective wisdom of the Clinic.

 

[luckyboy]

Now suppose he loses his case after he has been racing this season. He loses the 2010 TDF, and all of his 2011 results. Since he served about four and a half months suspension, I believe that with a two year suspension, dating from the end of this August and taking into account time served, he would be eligible to return around the middle of April 2013.

I don't really understand how a 2 year suspension from September 2010 would end up with him returning in April 2013. Surely he would come back in Sept. 2012 with all results for this year + TDF 2010 wiped.


I would really be shocked and a bit disappointed if he gets two years anyway. It's going to be bad enough that a couple of ****s will inherit his his wins. Oh and Coppel for Murcia, but that's ok.

 

[D-Queued]

more long-winded verbosity that hasn't been warranted by the new developments or new facts...the case PUBLIC factuals are just about where they were in november, january or april. except of course, that contador keeps racing and winning. is that the news ?

The news is that the facts don't matter.

But, that isn't news, especially in this case.

Dave.

 

[ManInFull]

I don't really understand how a 2 year suspension from September 2010 would end up with him returning in April 2013. Surely he would come back in Sept. 2012 with all results for this year + TDF 2010 wiped.


I would really be shocked and a bit disappointed if he gets two years anyway. It's going to be bad enough that a couple of ****s will inherit his his wins. Oh and Coppel for Murcia, but that's ok.

I agree. If UCI/CAS are going to take all of his wins from the 2011 season, then 2011 should also count towards the ban.

 

[TheMight]

I agree. If UCI/CAS are going to take all of his wins from the 2011 season, then 2011 should also count towards the ban.

You mean like how they wiped out all of Valverde's wins?

 

[uspostal]

I think the appeal was set in motion so he/AC could race at the TDF. The more wins he/AC gets the harder it will be for them UCI/CAS to take the wins away. The sport is having a hard time, PED's, UCI cover ups, and the last thing they need is for their grand event is not knowing who won it the last 2 yrs. The Idea of racing for 2nd place doesn't look good in your sports marquee event. Hopefully after this, the sports govering body will try to keep this sort of thing from happening again.

 

[D-Queued]

I think the appeal was set in motion so he/AC could race at the TDF. The more wins he/AC gets the harder it will be for them UCI/CAS to take the wins away. The sport is having a hard time, PED's, UCI cover ups, and the last thing they need is for their grand event is not knowing who won it the last 2 yrs. The Idea of racing for 2nd place doesn't look good in your sports marquee event. Hopefully after this, the sports govering body will try to keep this sort of thing from happening again.

And you were thinking this because they have done such a good job of this in the past?

Dave.

 

[ElChingon]

I am thinking its really up to us now.

Get your e-mails to sponsors going, with a "stop buying Saxo-Bank sponsor shwag till Contador's case is closed". I'll let you actually at the Tour take matters into your own hands, I just wish I could be there.

Now to compile the list of e-mails and addresses. I'll get back to that.

 

[Benotti69]

Evans commented;

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/01062011/58/tour-de-france-evans-mystified-contador-delays.html

"In many of these situations someone is guilty or not guilty, I just hope that justice prevails," the 34-year-old told the Geelong Advertiser.
"If he is innocent, well, I hope he is proven innocent and if he is guilty, well, he deserves to be punished.
"Why is it taking so long? Well that is the question. I am a little bit with everyone else on that one ... a little bit mystified I guess."

 

[M Sport]

You mean like how they wiped out all of Valverde's wins?

No, CAS didn't wipe out all of his wins. Only the last 3 or 4 months worth. And there is a fundamental difference between the two cases, Valverde was racing while he had been sanctioned for an offence. Contador is racing while he has been proven innocent of his charge.

They won't take the races off him now, well except for the 2010 TdF if the appeal is successful which I don't believe it will be.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Something else to think about - this delay would not have happened if the UCI had not sat on the appeal of the REFC decision until the last date possible. If they had got on with it sooner the CAS hearing might have already taken place. Who knows, we might have got a date before the Giro or the TDF at the latest.

Once again, the UCI ****s things up for everyone.

Nice bit of omerta from Cuddles there. Never say anything bad about another rider unless its Ricco, DDL or Vino.

 

[ChrisE]

Something else to think about - this delay would not have happened if the UCI had not sat on the appeal of the REFC decision until the last date possible. If they had got on with it sooner the CAS hearing might have already taken place. Who knows, we might have got a date before the Giro or the TDF at the latest.

Once again, the UCI ****s things up for everyone.

Nice bit of omerta from Cuddles there. Never say anything bad about another rider unless its Ricco, DDL or Vino.

LOL. No matter what anybody did at any time, this thing was gonna drag on and allow him to race in July.

This is all a bunch of bs.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

That's not what I am saying. If the UCI hadn't dicked around then the CAS hearing could have been set for an earlier date, even if Dertie had tried to delay it, it would the new delayed date would probably be sooner than August.

The UCI appealed on the very last date they had, claiming that they don't have enough lawyers to read through everything.

The point is that by being tardy the UCI have created more problems for cycling.

 

[ChrisE]

That's not what I am saying. If the UCI hadn't dicked around then the CAS hearing could have been set for an earlier date, even if Dertie had tried to delay it, it would the new delayed date would probably be sooner than August.

The UCI appealed on the very last date they had, claiming that they don't have enough lawyers to read through everything.

The point is that by being tardy the UCI have created more problems for cycling.

I understand what you were saying, but to say there is a rule set in stone for the delay duration I think if folly. IE appeal to CAS earlier, delay longer. Call me a cynic.

 

[hrotha]

Something else to think about - this delay would not have happened if the UCI had not sat on the appeal of the REFC decision until the last date possible. If they had got on with it sooner the CAS hearing might have already taken place. Who knows, we might have got a date before the Giro or the TDF at the latest.

Once again, the UCI ****s things up for everyone.

Nice bit of omerta from Cuddles there. Never say anything bad about another rider unless its Ricco, DDL or Vino.

Personally I have no doubts all parties (except for WADA) are doing their best to stall the process, as it benefits them & they've been on the same side all along (the UCI just had to do some posturing to appease WADA).

As for Evans, I don't see how what he said was omertà. It was just common sense.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Personally I have no doubts all parties (except for WADA) are doing their best to stall the process, as it benefits them & they've been on the same side all along (the UCI just had to do some posturing to appease WADA).

As for Evans, I don't see how what he said was omertà. It was just common sense.

It is easy to see conspiracy where in fact it is normally incompetence.

I suspect that the UCI is a divided organisation without everyone working in the same direction - hence why while some were 'advising' Dertie about his test failure, there were others who were leaking it to the press.

The party line from RCS to the Vuelta organization seems to be that Dertie is 'good for cycling' ie any publicity is good publicity.

Evans, like everyone else, is very circumspect when it comes to talking about Dertie, contrast that with the kicking that Ricco got from the peloton.

 

[python]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-chief-advises-contador-to-skip-the-tour-de-france

wada's howman advices berto not to ride the tour this year.

also noteworthy, howman admitted that wada is studying the possibility of introducing threshold for clenbuterol. said much will depend on the outcome of contador's decision by cas

...hmmm, sounds like wada is not sure if the current 'no-clen-peiod' position will be upheld by cas.

 

[Siriuscat]

...hmmm, sounds like wada is not sure if the current 'no-clen-peiod' position will be upheld by cas.

Which almost infers based on Berto's defence that WADA no longer feel that cross contamination can be ruled out completely.

In my view this opens the door for CAS to uphold the RFEC decision effectively with WADA support if they are about to make the change...interesting

 

[Publicus]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-chief-advises-contador-to-skip-the-tour-de-france

wada's howman advices berto not to ride the tour this year.

also noteworthy, howman admitted that wada is studying the possibility of introducing threshold for clenbuterol. said much will depend on the outcome of contador's decision by cas

...hmmm, sounds like wada is not sure if the current 'no-clen-peiod' position will be upheld by cas.

I found that quite interesting as well. I'd be curious to understand the scope of the study.

 

[Merckx index]

I think there are two issues here, whether there should be a threshold level for CB, and whether there should be zero tolerance for the drug. Though they’re related, it’s possible to get around the zero tolerance notion without arguing for a threshold, and in fact this is basically what Bert’s lawyers are doing. They are arguing not only that the CB came from contaminated meat, but that it was not his fault in any way that he ate this meat. If CAS were to buy this argument—as the Danish federation did for their rider—any level would be acceptable, as long as it could reasonably be claimed to have derived from contaminated meat. And conversely, a rider with a much lower level could still be sanctioned, if his argument of contaminated meat were not accepted.

I think if a rider can provide strong evidence of contaminated meat—obviously, the “smoking meat” itself would be best, but also or alternatively showing that teammates also tested positive at the same time—then modifying the zero tolerance is reasonable. I say this though I’m aware some athletes may use it in effect to mask intentional use of CB. But a threshold is something different, that is arguing that regardless of the evidence for contaminated meat, a certain level should not be regarded as doping.

I think this is a harder point to defend. Let’s not forget that Bert’s case is unusual. He tested negative right before testing positive, ruling out the possibility of taking an enhancing dose at the time. The great majority of athletes who test positive for CB do not have this negative test, so there is no way of dismissing the possibility that it resulted from a performance enhancing dose taken days or weeks earlier. And even in Bert’s case, of course, we have seen that blood transfusion is perfectly capable of explaining the positive.

I don’t know what WADA is going to do about this, but there are some major figures in anti-doping research, e.g., Ayotte, who are strongly opposed to a threshold. I think if a threshold is decided upon, it should be lower than the level Bert tested for. We have seen that that level would result only from eating heavily contaminated meat, of the kind mostly found in certain countries that can be identified ahead of time as a problem. The odds are extremely unlikely that you get 50 ng/ml from eating Spanish meat, that has been established about as certainly as anything can be. I think a threshold should be below 20 ng/ml, where you are getting close to the limits of sensitivity of the (current) procedure. Of course, many labs can’t even detect CB at that level, so a threshold is a moot point. There is a de facto threshold in effect at these labs, determined by the sensitivity that they do have.

Howman confirmed that WADA is studying a possible threshold for Clenbuterol.

“It would be premature to say something now, before the CAS verdict,” he said. “When we have their sentence, we will meet and decide what we do. We are also collecting further data and we have an open investigation on several continents and we have not completed all of our data. We hear from more people and wait for the ruling.”

To me, that doesn’t necessarily imply that he expects CAS to uphold RFEC. It’s obvious that if WADA is going to change a major rule, they don’t do it or even announce that they will do it just before a major case based on the old rule is decided. Also, during the hearing, arguments undoubtedly will be raised about the threshold and zero tolerance issues. WADA might look on the hearing as a useful debate on the issue.

 

[ricara]

Can Anybody Explain...

...why did Howman "recommend" that Contador not ride the TdF?

This doesn't add up for me. He said that he can't prevent him from doing so. He said that he supports the CAS's request for the delay. Then he hints that WADA may implement a threshold that would exonerate Dertie.

So why shouldn't Dertie ride the TdF?

The only reason I can think of is that if he does, the title is going to be stripped anyway. But none of the rest of Howman's statements corroborate that. It seems like he is talking out of both sides of his mouth at once. What am I missing?

 

[rzombie1988]

I agree that Howman seems like he is on both sides. I'm not really sure which way this is going anymore. Everytime I think Alberturol is going to get suspended the organizations say something that makes me think he won't. The longer it goes on though, I have to think it won't. I think it will be bad for the sport if he isn't charged. He's obviously on something and his travelling tainted meat story may have been the biggest slap in the face ever. I can already see current guys building tainted meat cases now in the hopes that they can use it in the future.

I'm all for the zero tolerance approach. You'll never find any clen in my system so you shouldn't be able to find it in anyone elses either. Putting a limit on it just welcomes people to take a chance. The only situation where I think it could be explained is if a whole team ends up with it like the situation that happened in China(I think).