UCI helped Froome with illegal(?) TUE at Romandie

[Dear Wiggo]

Take a look at his 2011 Vuelta TT data. The guy maxes out his HR about 160bpm while pumping out over 400 watts. Its been over a year since I did the calculations (not hard to do either), but his stroke volume was up close to 250ml from what I remember.
If someone can find the data for me again I can show the workings on how to get a rough calculation of stroke volume and VO2 max.

Nice - I like your thinking. Thanks for the heads up. You would have to do a range yeah? Based on expected BV (which can be up to 9+l for an elite athlete) and Hgb mass?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Max HR has nothing to do with Vo2 max or performance. It is genetic. Some riders, like Ted King, have a very low Max HR. IIRC Ted's max is 155

He was responding to the question,

What figures do you have regarding his cardiac output?

The heart rate Froome maxed out at is not his max heart rate and has nothing to do with what is being discussed.

With the heart rate Froome "maxes out at" you can calculate how much blood he is shifting to shift the oxygen required to generate the power recorded on his SRM.

From there you can back calculate how much stroke volume of blood the heart is pumping per beat to take a good stab at his cardiac output - ie the thing being discussed.

The lower the heart rate for a power output, clearly the more oxygen being shifted, and thus you would assume the higher the cardiac output - ie ml / heart beat.

Unless your blood has ridiculous oxygen carrying capacity, in which case you can have a lower HR at FTP and a normal cardiac output, perhaps.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Which would show up in urine tests wouldnt it? The Prednisolone would be ignored presumably (although in an ideal world they would check those levels weren't too high hopefully) but surely Kenacort would trigger a +ve. I cant believe they just ignore your sample and dont test for anything if you have a TUE?

Let's assume it did show up in a test. The UCI could just ignore it and never initiate a case. They've done this before with Armstrong and Rasmussen at least, probably Horner too.

Keep in mind there is not one test for many things. The tests also vary in cost, so cheap tests that are easier to defeat are typically the most frequently run.

One of the cool tricks built into the biological passport process is the anti-doping authority (UCI most likely) gets to choose the tests to run. They can choose to run tests for drugs a cyclist would never use and meet every criteria for "drugs testing."

 

[DirtyWorks]

Hgb mass?

Definitely not an expert, but doesn't mass get manipulated by grand tour doping? (oxygen vector doping)

 

[thehog]

Let's assume it did show up in a test. The UCI could just ignore it and never initiate a case. They've done this before with Armstrong and Rasmussen at least, probably Horner too.

Keep in mind there is not one test for many things. The tests also vary in cost, so cheap tests that are easier to defeat are typically the most frequently run.

One of the cool tricks built into the biological passport process is the anti-doping authority (UCI most likely) gets to choose the tests to run. They can choose to run tests for drugs a cyclist would never use and meet every criteria for "drugs testing."

More to the point if the rider has a "TUE" then perhaps the lab might not even bother testing for cortisone full stop? (cost)

Or if the test was marked under OOC or passport then they certainly wouldn't bother testing for cortisone.

The only problem is racing with cortisone.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Definitely not an expert, but doesn't mass get manipulated by grand tour doping? (oxygen vector doping)

Definitely! We're talking about a relatively low HR for a given power output. IF his cardiac output is high, it doesn't matter whether it's from doping or not - it's still incredibly "not normal", which is the point the poster with the long username was making.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I'm always amazed that "the clinic" has always ended up discussing doping as a negative thing.

So you're saying we should all look at doping as a positive thing, explain?

 

[thehog]

So you're saying we should all look at doping as a positive thing, explain?

Because stage racing is super hard and destroys a person body. Moderate doping is very helpful to offset some of those demands.

That's the positive.

 

[sponsor]

Because stage racing is super hard and destroys a person body. Moderate doping is very helpful to offset some of those demands.

That's the positive.

Its hard to explain to those that don't follow cycling how a sedative or pain killer could help performance with sleep.

It is an interesting concept to think some banned drugs would help heal the body.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Out of interest, what is stroke volume? How does it corrolate to the use of PEDs?

Stroke volume is the amount of blood pumped per beat of the heart.
No idea on the second point.

 

[Winterfold]

It is an interesting concept to think some banned drugs would help heal the body.

What's so strange about that? Drugs are created first and foremost to heal people.*

Then those healing effects can be abused to enhance athletic performance (or at the end of a 3 week mountainous GT more likely restore it)

*maybe you were being ironic

 

[Race Radio]

Because stage racing is super hard and destroys a person body. Moderate doping is very helpful to offset some of those demands.

That's the positive.

Cortisone does not offset those demands, it masks them. Bad stuff.

 

[Will Carter]

Let's assume it did show up in a test. The UCI could just ignore it and never initiate a case.

So there would be no need for a TUE then ...

 

[Benotti69]

So there would be no need for a TUE then ...

TUE is insurance.

 

[Race Radio]

He was responding to the question,



The heart rate Froome maxed out at is not his max heart rate and has nothing to do with what is being discussed.

With the heart rate Froome "maxes out at" you can calculate how much blood he is shifting to shift the oxygen required to generate the power recorded on his SRM.

From there you can back calculate how much stroke volume of blood the heart is pumping per beat to take a good stab at his cardiac output - ie the thing being discussed.

The lower the heart rate for a power output, clearly the more oxygen being shifted, and thus you would assume the higher the cardiac output - ie ml / heart beat.

Unless your blood has ridiculous oxygen carrying capacity, in which case you can have a lower HR at FTP and a normal cardiac output, perhaps.

Ahh, that makes more sense.

Thanks

 

[Will Carter]

Let's assume it did show up in a test. The UCI could just ignore it and never initiate a case. They've done this before with Armstrong and Rasmussen at least, probably Horner too.

Keep in mind there is not one test for many things. The tests also vary in cost, so cheap tests that are easier to defeat are typically the most frequently run.

One of the cool tricks built into the biological passport process is the anti-doping authority (UCI most likely) gets to choose the tests to run. They can choose to run tests for drugs a cyclist would never use and meet every criteria for "drugs testing."

Another reply to your first point. Yes the UCI could do that, but why? I'm sorry but your point doesnt stack up. If the UCI can just ignore things (presumably because they are all in cahoots) why bother with a TUE?

And if they are not all in it together then how would a TUE for Prednisolone cover other drugs?

I've asked/mentioned this a number of times - there is speculation on here that the TUE is used to cover other things, yet no-one has explained how this could be achieved. Its all been "get a TUE for A to cover glowing for B" without a shred of evidence (links, etc) that it is actually possible to do that.

 

[del1962]

Another reply to your first point. Yes the UCI could do that, but why? I'm sorry but your point doesnt stack up. If the UCI can just ignore things (presumably because they are all in cahoots) why bother with a TUE?

And if they are not all in it together then how would a TUE for Prednisolone cover other drugs?

I've asked/mentioned this a number of times - there is speculation on here that the TUE is used to cover other things, yet no-one has explained how this could be achieved. Its all been "get a TUE for A to cover glowing for B" without a shred of evidence (links, etc) that it is actually possible to do that.

It would only be the case if the drug for the TUE is a masking agent, is there any evidence this is the case?

 

[Tinman]

I've asked/mentioned this a number of times - there is speculation on here that the TUE is used to cover other things, yet no-one has explained how this could be achieved. Its all been "get a TUE for A to cover glowing for B" without a shred of evidence (links, etc) that it is actually possible to do that.

My assumption is that it's A for A. Prednisone is legal Out of Competition, when most of the heavy training takes place, but illegal In competition. Glow time - normally - about 4 days as I understand, but maybe even more if you have abused it for a long time as the body compensates and down regulates its own cortisol production (because it now gets it from the outside via drug).

Hence the scratching of Sky riders at L-B-L which followed yet another Tenerife training camp, Froome turning up late in the evening, and the TUE - for prednisone - at TdR.

Outside possibility - that prednisone temporarily reduces haematocrit (and Hb) values - to get within the allowed range required as an EPO program may have pushed values too high.

Or both.

 

[del1962]

My assumption is that it's A for A. Prednisone is legal Out of Competition, when most of the heavy training takes place, but illegal In competition. Glow time - normally - about 4 days as I understand, but maybe even more if you have abused it for a long time as the body compensates and down regulates its own cortisol production (because it now gets it from the outside via drug).

Hence the scratching of Sky riders at L-B-L which followed yet another Tenerife training camp, Froome turning up late in the evening, and the TUE - for prednisone - at TdR.

Outside possibility - that prednisone temporarily reduces haematocrit (and Hb) values - to get within the allowed range required as an EPO program may have pushed values too high.

Or both.

That would only make sense if he applied for TUE before the prologue though, which is not what has been reported.

 

[martinvickers]

That would only make sense if he applied for TUE before the prologue though, which is not what has been reported.

Really? Here? Hmm..

 

[thehog]

That would only make sense if he applied for TUE before the prologue though, which is not what has been reported.

It was applied before the prologue. It was granted on the day of the race and applied for ahead of the race.

"Christopher Froome's TUE (therapeutic use exemption) for oral use of glucocorticosteroids was granted on April 29, 2014, based on duly documented medical history and in compliance with the applicable UCI Regulations and the relevant Wada guidelines," read a UCI statement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-did-not-break-anti-doping-rules-say-UCI.html

Le Journal du Dimanche newspaper had asserted that Team Sky's request for Froome to take corticosteroid prednisolone ahead of the race at the end of April was authorised by the UCI medical supervisor without referring the case to the TUE committee.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cycling/27882004

 

[thehog]

Now I do like this...

 

[TheGame]

Now I do like this...

BS Hoggy. The page is there. You have the url in wrong, i spotted that straight away.

Heres the page, its there just fine. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/22960925

And heres the blog by Blazing Saddles you took a screencap of but didnt think to link to.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/blazin-saddles/tue-not-tue-froome-155828648.html

Maybe the peice was dated September 5th or something...

 

[the sceptic]

Really? Here? Hmm..

The forum made lots of sense for the past month or so. I wonder why.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Another reply to your first point. Yes the UCI could do that, but why? I'm sorry but your point doesnt stack up. If the UCI can just ignore things (presumably because they are all in cahoots) why bother with a TUE?

Because Lance, the perfect precedent of a bunch of things you should not do to successfully dope to winning, was found out, somehow. So you always set your ****-covering up in place just in case there's another mysterious leak.