US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[Cobblestoned]

Manipulate? You mean like Kekker, Lehaune, and Fabiani? hardly

Wouldn't say hardly, but exactly.

If I had to set up a "facts.against.Lance" site, you would be my first choice.
(Sorry @thehog)
Like you perhaps know, sausages always have two ends. You are just one of them.
You will never realize this, when you actually ignore the production process of sausages.

 

[9000ft]

I lol'd at your post. Clever and really did make me laugh.
Like I said, I posted it in the first 'Armstrong' thread I saw but erroneously...shoulda maybe gone in to 'Livestrong' thread. Sorry.

But you sure felt the 'need' to comment so things are thin for you too.

It's great fun!

 

[thehog]

Manipulate? You mean like Kekker, Lehaune, and Fabiani? hardly

Whichever way it's interpreted one thing is for sure; USADA is getting nothing.

 

[Race Radio]

Whichever way it's interpreted one thing is for sure; USADA is getting nothing.

I disagree.

In fact USADA already has a lot. USADA was in most of the meetings the Feds had in Europe and they have been sharing info for over a year

 

[BotanyBay]

Whichever way it's interpreted one thing is for sure; USADA is getting nothing.

If USADA gets nothing, then I'm sorry, I'll have to re-affix my tinfoil hat and assume that Lance bought his way out of this mess. Birotte can delay things, but he can't bury them.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I disagree.

In fact USADA already has a lot. USADA was in most of the meetings the Feds had in Europe and they have been sharing info for over a year

How I got it, those meetings were just what all meetings are about.
A "no, I am not bored by this" coffee-drinking and sandwich-eating competition.

Reaching its highlight and end, when 99er Lance pee was served.

 

[Cobblestoned]

If USADA gets nothing, then I'm sorry, I'll have to re-affix my tinfoil hat and assume that Lance bought his way out of this mess. Birotte can delay things, but he can't bury them.

Wasn't it pointed out many times, that they will get nothing when GJ investigation is closed without any charges ?

IIRC, that is what some "experts" in American law stated here few months ago.
Were they wrong or completely tinfoiled ?
Another conspiracy ?

 

[BotanyBay]

Of course there is nothing to it. USADA is asking for the evidence just so they can prove one and for all Lance rode clean

As they should prove. I really think this man deserves a FULL acquittal, don't you all?

And now it is time to scour the planet for Birotte wearing a yellow bracelet at the gym.

 

[BotanyBay]

Wasn't it pointed out many times, that they will get nothing when GJ investigation is closed without any charges ?

IIRC, that is what some "experts" in American law stated here few months ago.
Were they wrong or completely tinfoiled ?
Another conspiracy ?

No. Under US law, Grand Jury testimony is kept under seal if a defendant is never charged. But the Grand Jury testimony is just what was said by witnesses under oath in a sealed proceeding. Much more was said by others outside of the presence of a grand jury. Not to mention the evidence itself. All of that content can be legally shared. And there is an existing agreement in place TO share that kind of information.

Remember, in a jury room, you never ask a witness a question that you do not already know the answer to. So they do have evidence that existed independently of the grand jury conversations.

 

[BotanyBay]

How I got it, those meetings were just what all meetings are about.
A "no, I am not bored by this" coffee-drinking and sandwich-eating competition.

Reaching its highlight and end, when 99er Lance pee was served.

Sometimes people bring documents to meetings. Documents that have been copied with a mechanical device called a Kopiergerät. Sometimes people give those items to the visiting guests. Sometimes they use a fax machine or email after the meeting is over.

 

[KingsMountain]

[snip] And there is an existing agreement in place TO share that kind of information.

I believe in general that Federal investigators may not share information with other parties. There are exceptions for other law enforcement agencies, but the exceptions need to be justified. USADA does not necessarily fit those guidelines; in fact they probably do not, and the US Attorney will probably require a court order to hand over the results of the investigation. That is, the DOJ will probably want direction from the courts. In the Balco case, the flow of information was from DOJ to US senate to USADA.

And a ratified international treaty does not necessarily trump existing US law.

I guess that it would take an injunction to get the DOJ to hand over evidence. Maybe the USADA has the gumption and funding to get one, but I suspect they won't try.

Remember, in a jury room, you never ask a witness a question that you do not already know the answer to. So they do have evidence that existed independently of the grand jury conversations.

In grand jury situations, I believe that it is common to ask probing questions. It is an effective way to compel answers during an investigation, or know that the prosecution is getting warm because the witness invokes the 5th amendment, or to trip the perjury trap. No worries about the wrong answer affecting the jury-- they'll indict a ham sandwich.

In fact, the 18 month or more time period spent providing testimony to the GJ in this case pretty much proves that part of the investigation was being done via compelled testimony. If they already knew what was needed to indict, an indictment would have already happened.

 

[Race Radio]

Wasn't it pointed out many times, that they will get nothing when GJ investigation is closed without any charges ?

IIRC, that is what some "experts" in American law stated here few months ago.
Were they wrong or completely tinfoiled ?
Another conspiracy ?

Link, or is this just more wishful thinking?

WADA claims that the sharing of evidence is expected, part of a signed and ratified treaty, and has been done in the past with the BALCO case http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-head-expects-sharing-of-armstrong-evidence

It is possible to share much of the non-Grand Jury testimony.....and even possible to share some of the Grand Jury testimony if some people foolishly choose to lie.

Remember it is not just USADA but also the Federal Civil Fraud case Do you think the Feds are not going to share with the Feds?

 

[Race Radio]

I believe in general that Federal investigators may not share information with other parties. There are exceptions for other law enforcement agencies, but the exceptions need to be justified. USADA does not necessarily fit those guidelines; in fact they probably do not, and the US Attorney will probably require a court order to hand over the results of the investigation. That is, the DOJ will probably want direction from the courts. In the Balco case, the flow of information was from DOJ to US senate to USADA.

And a ratified international treaty does not necessarily trump existing US law.

I guess that it would take an injunction to get the DOJ to hand over evidence. Maybe the USADA has the gumption and funding to get one, but I suspect they won't try.

In grand jury situations, I believe that it is common to ask probing questions. It is an effective way to compel answers during an investigation, or know that the prosecution is getting warm because the witness invokes the 5th amendment, or to trip the perjury trap. No worries about the wrong answer affecting the jury-- they'll indict a ham sandwich.

In fact, the 18 month or more time period spent providing testimony to the GJ in this case pretty much proves that part of the investigation was being done via compelled testimony. If they already knew what was needed to indict, an indictment would have already happened.

Completely incorrect.

The treaty was ratified by the Senate, signed by the President. It has already been used on multiple occasions.

Don't get so caught up in the Grand Jury. Most witnesses testified outside of the Grand Jury

 

[thehog]

I disagree.

In fact USADA already has a lot. USADA was in most of the meetings the Feds had in Europe and they have been sharing info for over a year

OK I’m with you but you know I’m all out of faith. Even if they had scattered documents and we know they have the testimonies of Floyd and Tyler I don’t think it will be the “clear cut” evidence that the Feds had.

Beside the hearing will get rail roaded by Fabani and the UCI certainly won’t be helping proceedings. I think it will fizzle and end up being an embarrassment.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Completely incorrect.

The treaty was ratified by the Senate, signed by the President. It has already been used on multiple occasions.

Don't get so caught up in the Grand Jury. Most witnesses testified outside of the Grand Jury

Completely incorrect. For sure. Looks like that.

Thank you for pointing this out now all the time, after you were falsely "insiding" us for month that multiple witnesses, and which witnesses, have testified in front of the GJ.
I find this act very sweet.
You are really great in correcting yourself in a secret act, without letting it look like you had ever been wrong.

btw, have you corrected your wrong post by now ? Or trying to talk over it till few pages hide the obvious and well known manipulation of English speaking readership ?

 

[Cal_Joe]

<snip>
Don't get so caught up in the Grand Jury. Most witnesses testified outside of the Grand Jury

That raises a point I have been curious about.

For purposes of documents being under seal, is there a difference between:

1) Testimony in front of a GJ

2) A deposition given as part of the GJ investigation

3) Interviews given to investigators as part of the GJ investigation?

Does anybody with relevant experience know if there is a difference?

 

[KingsMountain]

Race Radio,
Regarding the UNESCO International Convention against doping in sport, the closest it comes to mandating that the DOJ (or any law enforcement entity) provide information to the USADA is in III.13 where it says that "States Parties [the USA for example] shall encourage cooperation between anti-doping organizations, public authorities and sports organizations within their jurisdiction and those within the jurisdiction of other States Parties in order to achieve, at the international level, the purpose of this Convention."

In other words, the convention has zero effect on the DOJ. Relying on the Convention will just lead to a further disappointment.

There is a better chance that the DOJ could consider the USADA to be a Governmental agency, in which case DOJ policies might permit the transfer of information.

 

[Velodude]

Race Radio,
Regarding the UNESCO International Convention against doping in sport, the closest it comes to mandating that the DOJ (or any law enforcement entity) provide information to the USADA is in III.13 where it says that "States Parties [the USA for example] shall encourage cooperation between anti-doping organizations, public authorities and sports organizations within their jurisdiction and those within the jurisdiction of other States Parties in order to achieve, at the international level, the purpose of this Convention."

In other words, the convention has zero effect on the DOJ. Relying on the Convention will just lead to a further disappointment.

There is a better chance that the DOJ could consider the USADA to be a Governmental agency, in which case DOJ policies might permit the transfer of information.

And what measures are available if a Party [the USA for example] does not "encourage cooperation between anti-doping organizations, public authorities and sports organizations within their jurisdiction and those within the jurisdiction of other States Parties in order to achieve, at the international level, the purpose of this Convention."?

 

[Race Radio]

Race Radio,
Regarding the UNESCO International Convention against doping in sport, the closest it comes to mandating that the DOJ (or any law enforcement entity) provide information to the USADA is in III.13 where it says that "States Parties [the USA for example] shall encourage cooperation between anti-doping organizations, public authorities and sports organizations within their jurisdiction and those within the jurisdiction of other States Parties in order to achieve, at the international level, the purpose of this Convention."

In other words, the convention has zero effect on the DOJ. Relying on the Convention will just lead to a further disappointment.

There is a better chance that the DOJ could consider the USADA to be a Governmental agency, in which case DOJ policies might permit the transfer of information.

Borat has two choices. Stonewall and look like he is hiding something or play by the rules and share the evidence as they have done in the past.

There is risk that when the public see the overwhelming evidence of criminal behavior that they will question why Lance was not charged at the time but that risk is lower then it would be if he stonewalled and tried a coverup.

Wonderboy is confident the evidence will not be shared and is pushing this talking point to anyone that will listen. I think he is wrong. We will see.

 

[BotanyBay]

Borat has two choices. Stonewall and look like he is hiding something or play by the rules and share the evidence as they have done in the past.

There is risk that when the public see the overwhelming evidence of criminal behavior that they will question why Lance was not charged at the time but that risk is lower then it would be if he stonewalled and tried a coverup.

Wonderboy is confident the evidence will not be shared and is pushing this talking point to anyone that will listen. I think he is wrong. We will see.

Rarely can one get his cake and eat it too. I hope Wunderbouy will have had to choose between disgrace & jail or just disgrace.

 

[frenchfry]

OK I’m with you but you know I’m all out of faith. Even if they had scattered documents and we know they have the testimonies of Floyd and Tyler I don’t think it will be the “clear cut” evidence that the Feds had.

Beside the hearing will get rail roaded by Fabani and the UCI certainly won’t be helping proceedings. I think it will fizzle and end up being an embarrassment.

I have to agree. Who would have thought the American justice system was as corrupt as the French system - a case of the new world catching up to the old world. Lancey-poo just has too many politicians in his pocket, he can continue to thumb his nose at the truth.

 

[Benotti69]

I have to agree. Who would have thought the American justice system was as corrupt as the French system - a case of the new world catching up to the old world. Lancey-poo just has too many politicians in his pocket, he can continue to thumb his nose at the truth.

"he can continue to thumb his nose at the truth"

but for how long?

 

[sniper]

until all his crimes fall under the statute of limitations?

 

[BotanyBay]

until all his crimes fall under the statute of limitations?

rarely do people with his issues "fix their own problems". They slowly spiral downward until the whole fake reality they've created crashes in itself. He has continued on without an ounce of humilty. That cockiness will be his downfall.

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

Come on guys, let's admit it, Lance Pharmastrong is invincible. He will never be caught or punished. He just gave a legendary lesson on how to power through the bull**** and critics and the ugly truth behind his fairy tale.

That guy is good at deceiving.

Let's just close all the threads about him. It's all nonsense now.