US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[Race Radio]

Sure, but at the same time, a wealth of evidence does not mean a coherent case, let alone a winnable one. As you know. How many years do you think it would take to trace and verify the various criminal connections or charges--even as they've been set out in the clinic? How long would the GJ need to sit before they could see through-lines through all of this. Which case would it have been in the end?

And is it not a usual decision for a federal attorney? Or is it simply unusual to jaded cycling fans with a vested interest in the outcome?

Prosecutors and investigators were confident there was enough to charge......but the GJ was dismissed before they could give their input. Yes, it is unusual.

 

[aphronesis]

Prosecutors and investigators were confident there was enough to charge......but the GJ was dismissed before they could give their input. Yes, it is unusual.

And so are you or your sources maintaining that if there was enough to charge, that there would eventually be enough to make something stick--no matter how stillborn the whole affair eventually became?

 

[thehog]

BTW, yes, Armstrong's money was a factor. But there is no way he spent anything close to what the government spent in their attempt to get him. He was just able to reduce the government's advantage more than a typical defendant can (they don't have a chance in hell).

I agree/ Good points raised.

 

[LarryBudMelman]

Sure, but at the same time, a wealth of evidence does not mean a coherent case, let alone a winnable one. As you know. How many years do you think it would take to trace and verify the various criminal connections or charges--even as they've been set out in the clinic? How long would the GJ need to sit before they could see through-lines through all of this. Which case would it have been in the end?

And is it not a usual decision for a federal attorney? Or is it simply unusual to jaded cycling fans with a vested interest in the outcome?

So only simple criminal schemes should be prosecuted?

 

[LarryBudMelman]

I agree/ Good points raised.

What are the good points? That a guilty guy confused the issues enough to get off?

 

[aphronesis]

So only simple criminal schemes should be prosecuted?

No, of course not LBM. And I'm not trolling your zeal, or RR's, Hog's or anyone else's.

I'm asking a practical question in terms of what could be feasibly achieved. Pursuit and prosecution of a complex scheme is one thing. Three more years down the road is that what the govt. would have been left with? How about, say, one year from now?

On one tangent, many on this board agree that the political system here is horribly flawed, if not corrupted. Those two factors are no less in play in the judicial system at various (although perhaps not all, levels). Not one or the other, but both. Flawed and potentially corruptible. On the face of it, that would seem to make it rather difficult to see a case (or cases) of this nature through to completion.

And if this post seems a bit long-running (rambling, say) for the speed readers, part of the point here is that it's not just money that perverted "justice" in this case.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

And so are you or your sources maintaining that if there was enough to charge, that there would eventually be enough to make something stick--no matter how stillborn the whole affair eventually became?

In relation to Armstrong? Perhaps.

However it would be a stretch to imagine the Feds had not uncovered all the various transactions and distributions of PEDs so that charges could not be secured against various people.

 

[Race Radio]

And so are you or your sources maintaining that if there was enough to charge, that there would eventually be enough to make something stick--no matter how stillborn the whole affair eventually became?

There have been multiple media reports from credible outlets that indicate that many closely connected to the case felt there was more then enough evidence for charges. This should not be a surprise to anyone following the case it was the same confidence shared with witnesses and investigators from France, Italy, Switzerland, and INTERPOL.

Given the huge amount of money transferred to Ferrari for doping services it is understandable that Wire Fraud was one of the charges suggested by prosecutors. It is obvious to even the casual observer that Lance's encounter with Tyler was witness tampering.

Of course this was view of those closest to the case. The experts whose job is to investigate and prosecute criminals. Others, who are more focused on political aspects of their career, chose to ignore the input of the experts and suddenly drop the case.

Yeah, yeah, we know. They are all a bunch of haters who are trying to smear an American hero.

 

[aphronesis]

There have been multiple media reports from credible outlets that indicate that many closely connected to the case felt there was more then enough evidence for charges. This should not be a surprise to anyone following the case it was the same confidence shared with witnesses and investigators from France, Italy, Switzerland, and INTERPOL.

Given the huge amount of money transferred to Ferrari for doping services it is understandable that Wire Fraud was one of the charges suggested by prosecutors. It is obvious to even the casual observer that Lance's encounter with Tyler was witness tampering.

Of course this was view of those closest to the case. The experts whose job is to investigate and prosecute criminals. Others, who are more focused on political aspects of their career, chose to ignore the input of the experts and suddenly drop the case.

Yeah, yeah, we know. They are all a bunch of haters who are trying to smear an American hero.

You were doing well until the last paragraph. I thought we were talking about a federal case. What does nonsense about "haterz n' heroes" have to do with any of that?

Or, in line with what you said above: how are Tyler and witness tampering connected to Wire Fraud? Which case is that exactly?

 

[aphronesis]

In relation to Armstrong? Perhaps.

However it would be a stretch to imagine the Feds had not uncovered all the various transactions and distributions of PEDs so that charges could not be secured against various people.

And the latter is worth the time--not just on the face of it, but compared to other discoverable crimes? Let alone politically popular? You may not have noticed (nor be expected to much care), but this country is still in the process of covering over its dysfunction and a few decades away from moving forward. With meth labs in every camper and pharmaceuticals in every bathroom why prosecute some PEDs?

The Ferrari issue could be a different one, but, again, do they all link up.

I can go spend the day on certain street corners observing all manner of crimes--some by the same people--doesn't mean they'll be connected or prosecuted.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

And the latter is worth the time--not just on the face of it, but compared to other discoverable crimes? Let alone politically popular? You may not have noticed (nor be expected to much care), but this country is still in the process of covering over its dysfunction and a few decades away from moving forward. With meth labs in every camper and pharmaceuticals in every bathroom why prosecute some PEDs?

The Ferrari issue could be a different one, but, again, do they all link up.

I can go spend the day on certain street corners observing all manner of crimes--some by the same people--doesn't mean they'll be connected or prosecuted.

Got it - using PEDs and engaging in wire fraud should not be pursued as there are much bigger crimes going on at your street corner.

 

[BotanyBay]

There have been multiple media reports from credible outlets that indicate that many closely connected to the case felt there was more then enough evidence for charges. This should not be a surprise to anyone following the case it was the same confidence shared with witnesses and investigators from France, Italy, Switzerland, and INTERPOL.

I'm only playing the Devil's Advocate here (I think you know I'm generally with you on this)...

Those close to the investigation are exactly that... Close. Perhaps so close that they can't be objective about their chances for an actual conviction (not a mere indictment). Those sources (when speaking to WSJ, NPR, etc) haven't gone as far as suggesting impropriety on the part of their superiors. If they were so certain of their chances for an actual conviction, then it would be hard for them to walk away from this with any perception other than either politics or lobbying got in the way... and yet they have not said that. They've actually said very little. If they spent 2 years working a rock-solid case, and their boss came along and squashed it the same day the subject makes a huge donation to the planned parenthood cause, don't you think they'd make a bigger stink about it?

I'm diassapointed in how the underlings have rolled-over. Birotte? That's easy. But why have his underlings only spoken in little "hints"?

This case is just too big to sweep under the rug. The dust is not stuff you can hide.

 

[aphronesis]

Got it - using PEDs and engaging in wire fraud should not be pursued as there are much bigger crimes going on at your street corner.

That's the most absurd distortion of logic that I've seen on this board to date--and fairly feeble--and that's saying a lot.

Two points. Not related. One: can PED distribution and wire fraud be convincingly linked. Second, if not, is the former worth prosecuting.

Not my street corner, thanks, but probably not that far away. In either case, those are petty crimes. It was an example that just because you (or anyone else) can see all manner of potential crimes, doesn't mean you can string them together.

Since you appreciate precision and verifiability, perhaps you could compile a list of all the potential crimes in this instance; then compile a chart showing which ones might be reasonably connected in a single case--or even a few--by the govt. And then, when you're done, provide an argument as to which of those that are left would be worthwhile to the federal govt to prosecute over the next couple of years.

Think of it as a progressive flow chart rather than a scattershot of litanies.

 

[Race Radio]

I'm only playing the Devil's Advocate here (I think you know I'm generally with you on this)...

Those close to the investigation are exactly that... Close. Perhaps so close that they can't be objective about their chances for an actual conviction (not a mere indictment). Those sources (when speaking to WSJ, NPR, etc) haven't gone as far as suggesting impropriety on the part of their superiors. If they were so certain of their chances for an actual conviction, then it would be hard for them to walk away from this with any perception other than either politics or lobbying got in the way... and yet they have not said that. They've actually said very little. If they spent 2 years working a rock-solid case, and their boss came along and squashed it the same day the subject makes a huge donation to the planned parenthood cause, don't you think they'd make a bigger stink about it?

I'm diassapointed in how the underlings have rolled-over. Birotte? That's easy. But why have his underlings only spoken in little "hints"?

This case is just too big to sweep under the rug. The dust is not stuff you can hide.

The "underlings" have job's, family's, and pensions to worry about. I would not be surprised if the conflict between the political side and the actual people who worked the case is not explored further in the coming months.....and I doubt a donation to Planed Parenthood will have anything to do with it

 

[Dr. Maserati]

That's the most absurd distortion of logic that I've seen on this board to date--and fairly feeble--and that's saying a lot.

So - what was your point when you wrote this:
"With meth labs in every camper and pharmaceuticals in every bathroom why prosecute some PEDs?"

Two points. Not related. One: can PED distribution and wire fraud be convincingly linked. Second, if not, is the former worth prosecuting.

Not my street corner, thanks, but probably not that far away. In either case, those are petty crimes. It was an example that just because you (or anyone else) can see all manner of potential crimes, doesn't mean you can string them together.

Since you appreciate precision and verifiability, perhaps you could compile a list of all the potential crimes in this instance; then compile a chart showing which ones might be reasonable connected in a single case--or even a few--by the govt. And then when you're done provide an argument as to which of those that are left would be worthwhile to the federal govt to prosecute over the next couple of years.

Think of it as a progressive flow chart rather than a scattershot of litanies.

I do like precision and verifiability - but I don't like pettiness or worthless strawman arguments.

You do acknowledge that there was indeed some illegal activity (unless you believe the PEDs were legitimately purchased and used) - so I believe these various legal professionals would be able to work out what laws have indeed been broken.

 

[LarryBudMelman]

No, of course not LBM. And I'm not trolling your zeal, or RR's, Hog's or anyone else's.

I'm asking a practical question in terms of what could be feasibly achieved. Pursuit and prosecution of a complex scheme is one thing. Three more years down the road is that what the govt. would have been left with? How about, say, one year from now?

On one tangent, many on this board agree that the political system here is horribly flawed, if not corrupted. Those two factors are no less in play in the judicial system at various (although perhaps not all, levels). Not one or the other, but both. Flawed and potentially corruptible. On the face of it, that would seem to make it rather difficult to see a case (or cases) of this nature through to completion.

And if this post seems a bit long-running (rambling, say) for the speed readers, part of the point here is that it's not just money that perverted "justice" in this case.

I think you've focused, to your detriment, on the very specific crimes of Lance Armstrong, while letting him off the hook on the larger implications of cynically selling a fraudulent message of hope.

The magnitude of that fraud has a direct relationship to the level of power he has attained. I know you've noticed that he has an open line to many of the most powerful people in the world.....and it is all based upon the fraudulent message of HOPE that he doesn't even believe in himself.

It's disgraceful the case has not been prosecuted yet.

The distillation of everything down to dollar costs has been a gigantic triumph for the right wing btw... There are in fact even greater costs of letting this kind of fraud slide which are not being accounted for. One of those costs is the general cynicism of the population.

 

[aphronesis]

So - what was your point when you wrote this:
"With meth labs in every camper and pharmaceuticals in every bathroom why prosecute some PEDs?"




I do like precision and verifiability - but I don't like pettiness or worthless strawman arguments.

You do acknowledge that there was indeed some illegal activity (unless you believe the PEDs were legitimately purchased and used) - so I believe these various legal professionals would be able to work out what laws have indeed been broken.

Good, then we're agreement. Maybe we can skip all future references to "babble," "LeMond," "haters," and so on.

I would think my point to the above should be fairly obvious. It's not that far removed from ones that I made months ago. This is only my opinion, but I don't think PED distribution rates high in the culture I described above. Let alone the current political landscape. One that is characterized by substance abuse and abusive substances in all walks of life. One that many describe as a "criminalization of everyday life."

It's not a strawman argument Mas. Crimes and illegal activity are taking place every second. You happen to think this one should be prosecuted since it can be identified.

Doesn't work that way here. If you feel otherwise, I suggest you emigrate and volunteer for an auxiliary police force. Plenty across the country are taking bodies. Or maybe put your investigative skills to work following some larger paper trails in the financial sector.

 

[Race Radio]

You were doing well until the last paragraph. I thought we were talking about a federal case. What does nonsense about "haterz n' heroes" have to do with any of that?

Or, in line with what you said above: how are Tyler and witness tampering connected to Wire Fraud? Which case is that exactly?

You appear to have missed that multiple media outlets have reported that Prosecutors were close to charging a number of individuals for fraud, witness tampering, mail fraud, and drug distribution. Sources said there were ‘no weaknesses in the case’.

From CN

“I talked to someone within the investigation but the reason why the case was shut down was due to a one-man decision. The evidence against those involved was absolutely overwhelming. They were going to be charged with a slew of crimes but for reasons unexplained he closed the case saying it wasn't open for discussion,”

Witnesses were still scheduled to appear when the case was dropped with 30 minutes notice.

Of course some will dismiss this as anonymous sources, haters, witch hunt, etc but the fact is confidence in the case is what has been communicated often to witnesses and foreign agencies and the work of many was ignored by one man.

 

[aphronesis]

I think you've focused, to your detriment, on the very specific crimes of Lance Armstrong, while letting him off the hook on the larger implications of cynically selling a fraudulent message of hope.

The magnitude of that fraud has a direct relationship to the level of power he has attained. I know you've noticed that he has an open line to many of the most powerful people in the world.....and it is all based upon the fraudulent message of HOPE that he doesn't even believe in himself.

It's disgraceful the case has not been prosecuted yet.

The distillation of everything down to dollar costs has been a gigantic triumph for the right wing btw... There are in fact even greater costs of letting this kind of fraud slide which are not being accounted for. One of those costs is the general cynicism of the population.

Find a post of mine that uses the word hope. You read philosophy, LBM, you should know what pernicious uses the word hope can be put to.

I'm not letting anyone off any hook. But calling him wonderboy or making Oedipal jokes is only an expenditure of my energy. Doesn't change his situation in the least. I don't ride Trek and I don't buy Michelob, RS products, sports drinks, etc.

And, no, I haven't focused on LA's crimes. If Ferrari or the backers could be brought down easily, I would merely be surprised.

It's not merely a triumph for the right wing. Call it neo-liberalism. And the reality is the Fraud you describe above is not a single crime--it is many and they are disconnected.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I'm only playing the Devil's Advocate here (I think you know I'm generally with you on this)...

Those close to the investigation are exactly that... Close. Perhaps so close that they can't be objective about their chances for an actual conviction (not a mere indictment). Those sources (when speaking to WSJ, NPR, etc) haven't gone as far as suggesting impropriety on the part of their superiors. If they were so certain of their chances for an actual conviction, then it would be hard for them to walk away from this with any perception other than either politics or lobbying got in the way... and yet they have not said that. They've actually said very little. If they spent 2 years working a rock-solid case, and their boss came along and squashed it the same day the subject makes a huge donation to the planned parenthood cause, don't you think they'd make a bigger stink about it?

I'm diassapointed in how the underlings have rolled-over. Birotte? That's easy. But why have his underlings only spoken in little "hints"?

This case is just too big to sweep under the rug. The dust is not stuff you can hide.

Maybe they don't feel like looking for a new job right now?

Edit: Didn't see RR;s response before I wrote this, sorry for the redundancy.

 

[aphronesis]

You appear to have missed that multiple media outlets have reported that Prosecutors were close to charging a number of individuals for fraud, witness tampering, mail fraud, and drug distribution. Sources said there were ‘no weaknesses in the case’.

From CN


Witnesses were still scheduled to appear when the case was dropped with 30 minutes notice.

Of course some will dismiss this as anonymous sources, haters, witch hunt, etc but the fact is confidence in the case is what has been communicated often to witnesses and foreign agencies and the work of many was ignored by one man.

Sorry, no. I haven't missed that. I'm pretty sure I've been arguing in line with it. My assessment of the situation simply diverges from yours. Last I checked, I had the right to do so strictly on the face of the evidence (irrelevant of the target(s))

To your points above. My knowledge of the criminal justice system and prosecutorial teams in recent years is that their policy has been to dig first (and long) and settle later when things stall out--if forced to do so. This has been the case at national and local levels. Admit no fault.


No matter how absurd the case--or how strong the evidence. So you'll excuse me if I don't just accept what those media outlets report at face value.

Any more than you believed, say, Bicycling magazine over the past several years....

 

[Velodude]

That's the most absurd distortion of logic that I've seen on this board to date--and fairly feeble--and that's saying a lot.

Two points. Not related. One: can PED distribution and wire fraud be convincingly linked. Second, if not, is the former worth prosecuting.

Not my street corner, thanks, but probably not that far away. In either case, those are petty crimes. It was an example that just because you (or anyone else) can see all manner of potential crimes, doesn't mean you can string them together.

Since you appreciate precision and verifiability, perhaps you could compile a list of all the potential crimes in this instance; then compile a chart showing which ones might be reasonably connected in a single case--or even a few--by the govt. And then, when you're done, provide an argument as to which of those that are left would be worthwhile to the federal govt to prosecute over the next couple of years.

Think of it as a progressive flow chart rather than a scattershot of litanies.

Except for the after event inane witness tampering crime(s) by the sociopath all the other crimes the Feds were investigating (mail fraud, drug distribution, wire fraud, money laundering, income tax evasion, US Gov funding fraud, bribery of foreign officials, carriage and administering of drugs, possession of unapproved drugs, etc) were all causes of action that had a common flow chart link to enabling team PED use.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Good, then we're agreement. Maybe we can skip all future references to "babble," "LeMond," "haters," and so on.

Due to the fact I never said "babble", "Lemond" or "haters" - then there is no need for me to skip that.

If you mean skip your irrelevant arguments, then yes - I can agree to that.

I would think my point to the above should be fairly obvious. It's not that far removed from ones that I made months ago. This is only my opinion, but I don't think PED distribution rates high in the culture I described above. Let alone the current political landscape. One that is characterized by substance abusive and abusive substances in all walks of life. One that many describe as a "criminalization of everyday life."

See - you agree that there are crimes, but try and compare it to others - and then agree that the motives not to pursue is political.

It's not a strawman argument Mas. Crimes and illegal activity are taking place every second. You happen to think this one should be prosecuted since it can be identified.

Doesn't work that way here. If you feel otherwise, I suggest you emigrate and volunteer for an auxiliary police force. Plenty across the country are taking bodies. Or maybe put your investigative skills to work following some larger paper trails in the financial sector.

Ya - the blue is a strawman. Thanks for playing.

 

[aphronesis]

Except for the after event inane witness tampering crime(s) by the sociopath all the other crimes the Feds were investigating (mail fraud, drug distribution, wire fraud, money laundering, income tax evasion, US Gov funding fraud, bribery of foreign officials, carriage and administering of drugs, possession of unapproved drugs, etc) were all causes of action that had a common flow chart link to enabling team PED use.

And how many of those were crimes in the US, exactly? And demonstrably so?

I'm pretty sure that this is the question I addressed to you about 3 or 4 pages ago.

 

[aphronesis]

Due to the fact I never said "babble", "Lemond" or "haters" - then there is no need for me to skip that.

If you mean skip your irrelevant arguments, then yes - I can agree to that.

See - you agree that there are crimes, but try and compare it to others - and then agree that the motives not to pursue is political."



You're doing a pretty poor job of skipping my irrelevant arguments. And they're irrelevant and strawman because you say so? I stand corrected.

However, they're not strawman arguments.They're realities in this country. It's called political and economic calculus. Do some reading on the current state of law enforcement. Comparing different crimes doesn't make some ok and others "bad." It simply means that one is making a pragmatic assessment of what is going to happen given finite resources and shifting value systems.