Vincenzo Nibali

[Dear Wiggo]

Read my above post Wiggo. Then read the rest of my point.

I did.

Explain a single tactic used in a Tour by a GC contender and then a single - just one single tactic - that improved on the first tactic and I will concede the point.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Sorry but you can't hide a claim of "advances in tactics" behind a "Nibali might be doping and I don't believe in him etc etc".

 

[Mishrak]

I meant it more as a sweeping general statement as to part of why performances could have improved since 1974. Surely there's been some innovation? I'm not saying it explains Nibali's performance (or Froome's) specifically.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Dull tempo riding.

lol
..........

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Stop.

I'm saying from 1974 to 2014, there's been advances in tactics, training, equipment, technology, nutrition and science. This is fact. You can't argue with it.

I'm not saying Nibali is clean. Not for one second. I'm saying this:

a) there's other factors outside of doping that have increased performances over the years
b) Nibali's performance is not as alien as people are claiming.

I've already said his performance is suspicious. You guys are claiming it as definitive proof that he's doping. I don't think we can conclude that from his Hautacam climb.

...yea, SSDD.

Um, advances + doping is how it's always been. The idea that dopers are lazy donkeys riding in the peloton only because of the dope is stupid nonsense perpetuated by dopers bullsh!tting journalists...nobody buys it. Dopers have always utilized the most advanced techniques, etc, available...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I meant it more as a sweeping general statement as to part of why performances could have improved since 1974. Surely there's been some innovation? I'm not saying it explains Nibali's performance (or Froome's) specifically.

Ok well it's possible I am just missing it - I tend to switch off when the castles and mountain ranges from the helicopter are replaced by the sight of the peloton snaking along, but my memory of the races being won involved a rider riding away from everyone else. On a climb.

Pantani.
Indurain.
Riis, 1996.
Lance 1999-2005.
Sastre whenever he won it.
Nibali this year.

That's 18 years of racing.

No change in the winning tactic.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Good grief. 2012. Wiggo sat on Froome's wheel, providing maximum draft advantage to Nibali, who was subsequently dropped. Yeah he attacked yadda yadda advances in tactics but they kinda sucked.

 

[Benotti69]

'Marginal tactics'.............

how soon till we call them tic tacs

 

[Mishrak]

"The fact that basically every cyclist who has achieved power outputs beyond 6 W/kg has done so with doping. Between the mid-1990s and the mid-2000s, the kinds of performances we see today (and in 2013) were achieved only with doping and so to join that company invites the possibility that the modern rider is also doping."

http://sportsscientists.com/2014/07/the-physiology-at-the-front-of-the-tour/

Thanks for that article.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

What advances in tactics Mishrak?

Gazing at your stem evidently helps.

EDIT: Unless there are cobbles or wet roads or other riders around who are getting dodgy...then it seems like it might be a detriment...

 

[deValtos]

Then explain this: http://www.climbing-records.com/2014/07/impressive-ascent-times-on-pla-dadet.html

Pla d'Adet
2014:10,3 km@8,3%---30:32---average speed 20.24 km/h(Nibali-Peraud)
---31:50---average speed 19.41 km/h(Rafal Majka)

1982:10,4 km@8,3%---33:13---average speed 18.79 km/h(Beat Breu)
---33:48---average speed 18.46 km/h(Robert Alban)
---33:53---average speed 18.42 km/h(Alberto Fernandez)
---34:04---average speed 18.32 km/h(Bernard Vallet)
---34:05---average speed 18.31 km/h(Raymond Martin)
---34:06---average speed 18.30 km/h(Bernard Hinault)
---34:12---average speed 18.25 km/h(Joop Zoetemelk)
1981:10,4 km@8,3%---33:40---average speed 18.53 km/h(Lucien Van Impe)
---34:04---average speed 18.32 km/h(Sven-ake Nilsson)
---34:07---average speed 18.29 km/h(Hinault-Anderson)
---34:28---average speed 18.10 km/h(Jos De Schoenmaecker)
---34:33---average speed 18.06 km/h(Alberto Fernandez)
---34:33---average speed 18.06 km/h(Alban-Martin)
---34:43---average speed 17.97 km/h(Lucien Didier)
1978:10,4 km@8,3%---33:29---average speed 18.64 km/h(Mariano Martinez)
---33:34---average speed 18.59 km/h(Bernard Hinault)
---33:34---average speed 18.59 km/h(Michel Pollentier)
---33:48---average speed 18.46 km/h(Joop Zoetemelk)
---34:57---average speed 17.85 km/h(Joaquim Agostinho)
---34:58---average speed 17.85 km/h(Hennie Kuiper)
---35:50---average speed 17.41 km/h(Christian Seznec)
1974:10,4 km@8,3%---33:20---average speed 18.72 km/h(Raymond Poulidor)
---34:01---average speed 18.34 km/h(Vicente Lopez-Carril)
---34:22---average speed 18.16 km/h(Michel Pollentier)
---34:37---average speed 18.03 km/h(Alain Santy)
---35:09---average speed 17.75 km/h(Eddy Merckx)
---35:25---average speed 17.62 km/h(Wladimiro Panizza)
---35:54---average speed 17.38 km/h(Roger Pingeon)

1-2 mins for difference in bike weight.

 

[Mishrak]

Ok well it's possible I am just missing it - I tend to switch off when the castles and mountain ranges from the helicopter are replaced by the sight of the peloton snaking along, but my memory of the races being won involved a rider riding away from everyone else. On a climb.

Pantani.
Indurain.
Riis, 1996.
Lance 1999-2005.
Sastre whenever he won it.
Nibali this year.

That's 18 years of racing.

No change in the winning tactic.

You're right. I'll withdraw that comment entirely then.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

1-2 mins for difference in bike weight.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Say 67kg rider + 7kg bike = 74kg

67kg rider + 10kg bike in whenever = 77kg.

77/74 = 1.04, so a 4% increase to history, or decrease to now.

On a 30 minute climb, that's roughly 1.2 minutes yeah?

 

[deValtos]

Someone doesn't understand maths.

Edit: in reference to chewbacca

 

[deValtos]

Say 67kg rider + 7kg bike = 74kg

67kg rider + 10kg bike in whenever = 77kg.

77/74 = 1.04, so a 4% increase to history, or decrease to now.

On a 30 minute climb, that's roughly 1.2 minutes yeah?

Pretty close yup, a bit more if you take 6.8 to a top end 10.2 like Zoetemelk.

 

[Mishrak]

I was gonna say. It's a hell of a lot easier riding a $10,000 cervelo s5 than it is riding a steel schwinn.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I was gonna say. It's a hell of a lot easier riding a $10,000 cervelo s5 than it is riding a steel schwinn.

Reynolds 531 was nice though - really nice.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Someone doesn't understand maths.

Edit: in reference to chewbacca

Somebody is deluded.

Edit: in reference to deValtos

 

[deValtos]

Somebody is deluded.

Edit: in reference to deValtos

I've got my bike weights written down from the light Motobecane Ocana was riding (8.4) and Van Impe's Gitane (8.5) to Thevenet's Peugeot (10.0) and Zoetemelk's Raleigh (10.2) back in the 1970's and 1980's. At 6.0 watts per kilo over 30-35 mins you get a difference of 1-2 mins against a 6.8kg bike.

 

[pmcg76]

At the end of a mountain stage? At the end of the Tour?

So why were all riders before epo so far away from that?

edit: Example:

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily
#Tour 1990, Luz Ardiden (13.30 km, 7.44 %, 989 m). Greg LeMond: 39 min 46 sec, 20.07 Kph, VAM 1492 m/h, ~5.40-5.50 W/kg.

Well there is a huge difference between having your team-mates set tempo up the final climb and arriving at the base in a small group of 3-4 riders having been on the attack up the Tourmalet, because that is what happened on that stage from 1990 you are quoting.

LeMond attacked twice up the Tourmalet and drew Delgado, Indurain ahead over the top, rode flat-out on the descent as Chiappucci(who was still leading overall)was up ahead, caught that group and rode with them before attacking from 7km out drawing Indurain clear. He had been on the attack from 37km out riding usassisted from team-mates. How is that in any shape or form comparable to having team-mates guide you to within the last 10km or so of a stage? For the record, Chiappucci had been on the attack from the Aspin on that stage.

Fundamentally that is what has changed, almost everything nowadays is decided on the final climb with 30/40 riders arriving together at the base and most with team-mates to pace them. Previously riders were attacking from much further out and usually reaching the base of the final climb in a small group whilst very rarely having team-mates to set tempo. Of course times are going to be slower.

Instead of comparing modern climbing times to older times, the real question should be why is it that so many are now arriving at the base of the final climb together. Has the general level of the secondary rider improved due to doping or better secondary level riders in general.

Banesto were the first real team to have mountains trains and they had Delgado(Tour winner)J.F.Bernard(Tour Podium finisher and top Mountain TT rider)Rondon(noted Colombian Climber) as their climbers. At that time, very few teams had that depth of climbing ability. Ironically Z were one that did(Millar, Boyer, Pensec) but they never rode in such a manner as they still raced old-style free for all and the 1990 Tour was a bit strange for them as Pensec was in yellow for a while so they had to assist both.

 

[Race Radio]

Might as well tell this story here.

A while back I was talking to a Italian friend, long time professional rider and now works for a ProTour team. At the time he was still racing. Nibali's name came up and I said it was only a matter of time before he gets caught. My friend was a bit taken aback, said he thought Nibali was clean. He knows Nibali but he is also lifelong friends with Vanotti, Nibali's primary training partner and teammate. He said Vanotti swears Nibali is clean. They had many deep discussions about it, spent hours/weeks/years together and he was convinced.

 

[King Boonen]

Reynolds 531 was nice though - really nice.

Yes, yes it was (is!). My new frame is 853, I like it just as much.

 

[King Boonen]

I was prepared to believe in Nibali, this Tour performance is testing me though. I argue for Wiggins winning clean on a Tour that suited him, a weak opposition and a strong team to babysit him when it mattered. I think a similar argument could be made for Nibali, minus the babysitting of course!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I was prepared to believe in Nibali, this Tour performance is testing me though. I argue for Wiggins winning clean on a Tour that suited him, a weak opposition and a strong team to babysit him when it mattered. I think a similar argument could be made for Nibali, minus the babysitting of course!

Do you remember what Wiggo did to Nibbles in Wiggo's tour?