What a glorious day; Lance Armstrong stripped of titles

[Alpehue]

Did you just wake up from a loooong sleep? Mqybe do a minimum of reasearch before clogging up the forum. There are literally hundreds fo cyclists that have been sanctioned for doping.

I'm fully aware of that, and im all for catching the dopers, but i am saying that there is no point in taking Armstrongs titles away, and then declaring Ulrich the rightful winner. Chances are he was just as doped.

Even if they take away the top 20, how do we know that number 21 wasent doped as well? Lots of people that has been saying he was cheating for years will be clapping their hands, saying justice has happened.

Lets stop living in the past, lets focus on making the sport in the future, lets deal with the doping problem that exists now, make the future of the sport better.

And for the record, most of these riders have been caught while they were still active, how many riders did your "minimum of research" find that was caught several years after they retired.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

I'm at a loss how you can associate "lynching" with this case. Armstrong has skated by while others have paid for their indiscretions and now that he's finally facing justice many are claiming it's unfair.

Not really

Basso came back and won the Giro
Ullrich retired and is still pretty well liked
Contador will come back and probably take the Vuelta this year
Vinokourov came back and won the Gold
The other USPS guys are going to get a pass for testifying against LA
Riis got an asterisk
Indurain, Hinault, and Merckx are still national heros and still championed by the sport
McQuaid is still head of the UCI

Simpson and Pantani did die though

 

[egtalbot]

It strikes me that this all boils down to two possibilities. One is that USADA has strong evidence that Lance doped. They other is that they don't.

If they have such evidence then they needed to bring a case, which they did. I'll grant that there is some procedural doubt based on WADA coming on board in 2004 and based on the UCI language about "discovering" evidence. But the way you handle that if you are USADA is to bring a case and let the appeals process play out all the way up to CAS. Which is the process they began.

USADA could not have done anything any differently. It's not up to them to decide who gets awarded first place in the Tours now. It's not up to them to avoid a case because they know other people are getting away with it and they don't have evidence on everyone.

Some aspects of the outcome at this point are not great, but unless you believe USADA doesn't actually have evidence, the process played out as it had to. The only one with the ability to make it happen differently was Lance by going to arbitration.

I get that some people see a vast conspiracy of former riders,managers, USADA and CAS seeking to bring him down and all lying in order to do so. That seems so improbable to me that there really is no counter - such a belief can only exist based on a large amount of evidence-free faith.

 

[Old School]

I'm fully aware of that, and im all for catching the dopers, but i am saying that there is no point in taking Armstrongs titles away,".....

Why not? Since he has been caught, you can't let his victories stand...he was caught so that he couldn't stand on those doped victories.

He burns, and it's a good burn. He's acted too much as untouchable, and the government always gets their man. It does not matter if #2-20 doped, you start at the top.

What has kill him the most is that his trusted teammates are the ones that would have made the whole story complete...that he was cheating, while he said he wasn't.

Oh, yeah...passed 100s of tests....but you only have to fail 1...and he did.

I'm happy for the sport and very happy he goes out a loser. LeMond was the best from these shores...not pharmstrong.

 

[silverrocket]

Do you honestly believe that after watching Sky at the Tour this year? That team was every bit as dominate as USPS were in their prime. I thought we moved on after Landis, then we got Contador. I thought we moved on after Contador, and then we got Sky. It is not going to ever end.

Landis was no Armstrong. Neither was/is Contador, and his charge was a barely convincing amount of clen. Armstrong was the king of the dopers, and the king of cycling corruption, and now the king is dead.

Team Sky was certainly in the tradition of Lance and Co., but with the head chopped off the doping dragon, it is reasonable to expect that some real change might follow...as long as those details get released and the UCI gets put in its place. Otherwise Wiggins becomes the new Armstrong and you are right, and it never ends.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

Landis was no Armstrong. Neither was/is Contador, and his charge was a barely convincing amount of clen. Armstrong was the king of the dopers, and the king of cycling corruption, and now the king is dead.

Team Sky was certainly in the tradition of Lance and Co., but with the head chopped off the doping dragon, it is reasonable to expect that some real change might follow...as long as those details get released and the UCI gets put in its place. Otherwise Wiggins becomes the new Armstrong and you are right, and it never ends.

Was he doping more than everyone else?

 

[MarkvW]

Was he doping more than everyone else?

Do we let Armstrong's cheating behavior define our standards?

 

[thehog]

Not really

Basso came back and won the Giro
Ullrich retired and is still pretty well liked
Contador will come back and probably take the Vuelta this year
Vinokourov came back and won the Gold
The other USPS guys are going to get a pass for testifying against LA
Riis got an asterisk
Indurain, Hinault, and Merckx are still national heros and still championed by the sport
McQuaid is still head of the UCI

Simpson and Pantani did die though

Yes it been a dream for Ullrich. Depression, sickness and constant legal battles with the UCI. All 6 years of it.

Well liked doesn't repair that damage.

 

[broken chain]

If they do end up getting stripped, it means Ulrich will be one of the most winning tour riders ever... And that Kloden will have won the tour

First victory - 1999:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Alex Zülle - Schweiz - Banesto
3. Fernando Escartin - Spanien - Kelme
4. Laurent Dufaux - Schweiz - Saeco
5. Ángel Casero - Spanien - Vitalicio Seguros

Second victory - 2000:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Jan Ullrich - Tyskland - Telekom
3. Joseba Beloki - Spanien - Festina
4. Christophe Moreau - Frankrig - Festina
5. Roberto Heras - Spanien - Kelme

Third victory - 2001:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Jan Ullrich - Tyskland - Telekom
3. Joseba Beloki - Spanien - ONCE
4. Andrei Kivilev - Kazakhstan - Cofidis
5. Igor González Galdeano - Spanien - ONCE

Fourth victory - 2002:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Joseba Beloki - Spanien - ONCE
3. Raimondas Rumsas - Litauen - Lampre
4. Santiago Botero - Colombia - Kelme
5. Igor González Galdeano - Spanien - ONCE

Fifth victory - 2003:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Jan Ullrich - Tyskland - Team Bianchi
3. Alexandre Vinokourov - Kazakhstan - Telekom
4. Tyler Hamilton - USA - Team CSC
5. Haimar Zubeldia - Spanien - Euskaltel

Sixt victory - 2004:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - US Postal
2. Andreas Klöden - Tyskland - T-Mobile
3. Ivan Basso - Italien - Team CSC
4. Jan Ullrich - Tyskland - T-Mobile
5. José Azevedo - Portugal - US Postal

Seventh victory - 2005:
1. Lance Armstrong - USA - Discovery Channel
2. Ivan Basso - Italien - Team CSC
3. Jan Ullrich - Tyskland - T-Mobile
4. Fancisco Mancebo - Spanien - Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne
5. Aleandre Vinokourov - Kazakhstan - T-Mobile

By the way, i find it to be a absolute joke that they are stripping him of his titels now, im 99% sure he did cheat, but im just as sure that everyone else in top 10 did. Why replace 1 cheater with another?, where is the fair part of going only for 1 person, when most of them cheated.

+1
After his 2nd tour win I questioned whether anyone could walk away from the worlds top riders in the manner that he did.Juiced up as they were.

I would have to give him credit for being the best of the dopers at the time.

You are absolutely right,replacing a doper with another.

 

[Anonymous]

Was he doping more than everyone else?

Can you point to any other rider/team where the UCI were actively covering up test results and tipping off the timing of said tests?

 

[knewcleardaze]

There are no TdF results listed on Wikipedia for Armstrong.

 

[SuperH-]

Anybody can tell me what happens to the prize money won by lance armstrong? He has to repay it ? Or what happens with the prize money?

 

[kurtinsc]

Is everyone okay with the idea that Ulrich now has 3 more TDF wins? That Zulle now won a Tour? That Basso now has a tour win? I mean Zulle admitted to doping in the Festina affair and Ullrich and Basso had Puerto suspension. Not to mention the questions about Kloeden.

I do hope they just vacate the tours rather then awarding the wins to other proven dopers. I fail to see how taking from Lance and giving to Ullrich makes anything cleaner.

 

[Cobblestoned]

If there is any merit to the level-playing-field argument (and I'm not saying there isn't), Lance must now be particularly frustrated. "Why me?"

More seriously, the "they all doped" argument is why the focus should not be solely on Lance right now (he's going to have to take heavy punches from different angles anyway), but should rapidly shift towards the facilitators.

As I said plenty of times, I'm not feeling any Schadenfreude in regards to Lance getting his *** spanked all over the place right now.
My satisfaction will come when, and only if, Verdrugthem goes down.

Sounds sehr vernünftig. I tend to believe you.
I would be ok with all that intensive hunting, if everyone involved would get....just sanctioned and we get a level-sanctioned-field or level-sanctioned-team.

I doubt it will/did ever happen. And I still thank Floyd for bringing it on table earlier, just confirming me.
(Floyd Landis: They Wanted Me to Rat Out Lance Armstrong)
No doubt, for profilierungssüchtige people with Minderwertigkeitskomplexen, I think it is much "fun" to bring down someone like Lance.
You know, Seppelt und Co are still celebrating their "win" over Ullrich and Alberto, and they still feel like impersonations of god.

For me, all this "for clean future of cycling, to give youth a fair chance" blabla - this is just a smokescreen to give their efforts a useful sense and to give an answer to the people who see this as a concentrated hunt to bring down Lance.
Thanks again, Floyd. The only reason you gave me to hate you, was your go on Greg's childhood. But not my problem. Otherwise, no complaints - grosses Kino.

Same could be applied to many of the VIP clinicians aka Fab12 aka haters, who's "main interest in clean cycling and fairness" is a smokescreen for their unhealthy Lance-hate.
I've been following those guys for a long time now, and it's easy to see how they went from "haters" to "the cycling saints" in a hurry, after beeing called out for it, to not just look like "haters on mission".
Not even starting to talk about their "interest" in cycling as a sport. Many alibi-posts and alibi-interests posted. They hardly left the clinic or just those Lance-threads. Perhaps for derailing some RS threads, which use(d) to be their Trojan horses for entering the racing section.

Personally, I will never deny any part of cyclings past, or even whole decades or eras of it. I stand to my sport. Every single facking minute.
With all the good and all the bad things that have happened.

Cherry picking is for pussies.

Done for now. See you laters, alligators!

PS: Love German media. lol
Lance was stripped off all his titles. Who cares about the facts ? but used to it.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Is everyone okay with the idea that Ulrich now has 3 more TDF wins? That Zulle now won a Tour? That Basso now has a tour win? I mean Zulle admitted to doping in the Festina affair and Ullrich and Basso had Puerto suspension. Not to mention the questions about Kloeden.

I do hope they just vacate the tours rather then awarding the wins to other proven dopers. I fail to see how taking from Lance and giving to Ullrich makes anything cleaner.

As a German, I would be ashamed. Like Ullrich would.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Yes it been a dream for Ullrich. Depression, sickness and constant legal battles with the UCI. All 6 years of it.

Well liked doesn't repair that damage.

Ullrich and his sickness is your favorite tool, isn't he ?
Always makes me puke. Nearly.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

Is everyone okay with the idea that Ulrich now has 3 more TDF wins? That Zulle now won a Tour? That Basso now has a tour win? I mean Zulle admitted to doping in the Festina affair and Ullrich and Basso had Puerto suspension. Not to mention the questions about Kloeden.

I do hope they just vacate the tours rather then awarding the wins to other proven dopers. I fail to see how taking from Lance and giving to Ullrich makes anything cleaner.

Beloki gets one as well

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

you're a bit off.

After the 1998 Festina bombshell, there was no level playing field in 1999. Most were too scared to dope after the 1998 explosion and according to insiders there was even a sort of consensus growing among the members of the peloton that 1999 should be clean.

Too bad the guy with the jellow jersey tested positive only 1 week after the start of the 1999 Tour. It happened to be a guy who had just survived cancer miraculously and who happened to have a decent media appeal that the UCI wanted to profit from. So lucky for this guy, the UCI had his *** covered.

The scam was so obvious that all sincere intentions to race clean among many members of the peloton at the time were squashed in one go. It was the signal that you can still dope and that the UCI endulges it.

So it was Lance and the UCI who brought doping back at the forefront in 1999 in a short but very crucial timeframe, post-festina, in which the climate was in fact perfect for cycling to take the clean road.

Therefore, if you insist on claiming a level playing field (which you seem to do), at the very least don't claim it for 1999.

Here's a brilliant Kimmage interview on which the above analysis is based:

Just to reiterate your point

According to Christophe Bassons, there had been one day where a number of riders wanted to rebel against the drugs. This was the day when Lance Armstrong won the stage from Le Grand Bornand to Sestrières

Source

 

[The Hitch]

Is everyone okay with the idea that Ulrich now has 3 more TDF wins? That Zulle now won a Tour? That Basso now has a tour win? I mean Zulle admitted to doping in the Festina affair and Ullrich and Basso had Puerto suspension. Not to mention the questions about Kloeden.

I do hope they just vacate the tours rather then awarding the wins to other proven dopers. I fail to see how taking from Lance and giving to Ullrich makes anything cleaner.

Its absurd yes but if everyone wants to live with innocent until proven guilty, Ullrich was proven guilty of doping 2005, 2006 but not 2000 or 2001 or 2003. Basso was proven of doping in 06 and Zulle before his win.

By the rules we follow, these guys are the rightful winners. Ridiculous i know but i cant help but laugh if thats how it turns out.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Can you point to any other rider/team where the UCI were actively covering up test results and tipping off the timing of said tests?

Can you point out, that this didn't happen ?
Can you point to other teams, where birds -like Floyd- were singing that loudly and that much, that were investigated that intensive ?

As a little helper I would point you to some JJ statements, or comments of one of Voecklers DSs.

Wouldn't it be clever by UCI to keep the whole thing and business "clean", and not just one prefered team or rider ?
How many top-riders and teams were caught during Lance's era ?
Ok, thats ChrisE's glory. Don't want to suck his wheel or profit from his cleverness.

Think you can be clever if you want to, so at least you could try to not pressure that important part of body, called brain, to underperform just for hates' sake.

 

[kurtinsc]

Beloki gets one as well

Yeah, but Beloki (as far as I know) doesn't have the cloud of suspicion that the other 6 2nd place finishers have in regards to drug use. He was suspected in Puerto, but cleared (I think).

Part of that might have been that due to his crash, nobody wanted to go after him that hard.

 

[labratty]

I am wondering if this is not going to end until WADA takes the UCI to CAS to make them accept and enforce the ruling.
Are the ASO also bound by CAS? Probably not an issue, I suspect they may drag their heels a little and get a sniff of which way the public sentiment is blowing.

 

[The Sheep]

Can someone explain why can't USADA themselves not bring it before the CAS?

 

[Turner29]

Can someone explain why can't USADA themselves not bring it before the CAS?

Simple. There is nothing yet for them to appeal.

 

[SaxonUK]

Not particularly happy about todays news, never was a fan of Armstrong, but popular riders bring in much needed interest in the sport, and now the golden boy has been stripped of everything.

A good and bad day for cycling