When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[Race Radio]

5 iu/kg perhaps daily vs 30 iu/kg twice a week.

And the intention in this case (during a GT) would be to keep retics in the normal range, not to increase Hb by 10%.

Basically what I wrote over and over.....

 

[Race Radio]

I'm not the one who started the thread down that track.

Nor was I. It is clear that we were discussing what methods Horner could be using in the Vuelta......it appears some are more interested in starting an argument then discussing the topic.

I made this very clear several pages ago

The larger question I have is what is he doing? Certainly HGh and Test can help an older rider but we all know oxygen vector doping is where it is at. He has been in the US for months. Only went to Spain 3 days before the race. If he is transfusing how does he get the blood bags to Spain? It is not as simple as people think. You need extract 3-4 weeks prior, transfer and store them correctly. We have all read stories about blood doping, none involved transatlantic transport.....well, except maybe Lance on his private jet

If he slammed a bag right after Utah, using the "I was at altitude" defense for the raise in HCT, how does he do so well entering the 3rd week. With the exception of a bad TT he has not lost a step.

We then had a interesting, and informative, discussion about the blood storage and transportation possibilities.....then the claim that EPO alone could be used to keep the volumes....something we now agree would be very hard to pull off during a race these days

 

[Beech Mtn]

Nor was I. It is clear that we were discussing what methods Horner could be using in the Vuelta......it appears some are more interested in starting an argument then discussing the topic.

<snipped>

Come on man, your condescending tone contributed partly to things getting a bit heated. It's a little disingenuous to act like only the other side was argumentative. Not blaming only you - it takes two to argue. But this was looking like turning into another big, divisive tailwind debate.

 

[Race Radio]

Come on man, your condescending tone contributed partly to things getting a bit heated. It's a little disingenuous to act like only the other side was argumentative. Not blaming only you - it takes two to argue. But this was looking like turning into another big, divisive tailwind debate.

I suggest you review the last few pages and see which poster used profanity, CAPS, and !!!!! because they did not read what was being discussed and instead tried to force an argument. It was not me

 

[sniper]

what about stuff like AICAR and Telmisartan.
Still (!) not tested for (AICAR) and not on the WADA list (Telmisartan), in spite of the fact that both were being messed with already in the 2009 TdF.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11395/Doping-AICAR-Telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx

is it possible that Horner doesn't need transfusions?

 

[Race Radio]

what about stuff like AICAR and Telmisartan.
Still (!) not tested for (AICAR) and not on the WADA list (Telmisartan), in spite of the fact that both were being messed with already in the 2009 TdF.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11395/Doping-AICAR-Telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx

is it possible that Horner doesn't need transfusions?

There is so much conflicting information on AICAR. Some say there is a test, others say there is no test. One thing is clear, the peloton has never been skinnier. Since 2009 it has been obvious. It is odd that they are able to maintain power but even more odd is they never get sick. I cannot understand how riders can stay on the razor edge of weight and not get sick

 

[Beech Mtn]

I suggest you review the last few pages and see which poster used profanity, CAPS, and !!!!! because they did not read what was being discussed and instead tried to force an argument. It was not me

I did read it. No, you didn't use profanity or the dreaded caps-yelling. But you were snippy and sarcastic. Not trying to be overly critical here, RR, but the tone of your posts seems more defensive since all that trouble with the Hog.

Anyway, I'm not a mod, and this is all off-topic anyway. Not wanting to jump all over you, just pointing out what I've seen. Maybe you think my opinion is just BS. That's certainly your right to think so, and maybe I'm wrong about this.

 

[Christian]

even more odd is they never get sick. I cannot understand how riders can stay on the razor edge of weight and not get sick

What do you mean, it seems to me riders get sick all the time? Of course I have no statistics, but "never" seems like a stretch

 

[Beech Mtn]

What do you mean, it seems to me riders get sick all the time? Of course I have no statistics, but "never" seems like a stretch

I always thought not getting sick was supposed be a bit of a suspicious sign about using dope. Being able to "recover" better and not drain the body so there was less stress on the immune system.

 

[BroDeal]

I have raised this issue about extreme low weight and susceptibility to getting sick and how during the build up to a high high peak you would not want to maintain that low weight for fear of compromising training, but no one wants to bite.

Then let's take into account Wiggins' bizarre situation. He supposedly loses tons of weight, which should decrease his power, time trials better than ever, and is finally being able to beat the best time trialists for the first time in his career. Now he needs to gain weight, lots of it, to gain power to have a chance at the world's ITT.

 

[Race Radio]

What do you mean, it seems to me riders get sick all the time? Of course I have no statistics, but "never" seems like a stretch

Sure, riders still get sick. A rider, or any person for that matter, can only stay super skinny for a short period before it becomes more of a detriment then a benefit. The body starts to break down. It was pretty obvious in the 2009 Tour. Maybe riders are just better with their diet, don't know.

 

[icefire]

There is so much conflicting information on AICAR. Some say there is a test, others say there is no test. One thing is clear, the peloton has never been skinnier. Since 2009 it has been obvious. It is odd that they are able to maintain power but even more odd is they never get sick. I cannot understand how riders can stay on the razor edge of weight and not get sick

Do cases of "high sensitivity" to cold weather enter into that category of being sick? I'm just wondering if top riders performing well below their expected level as we saw in the last Giro with Wiggins and specially Hesjedal are more frequent now that a few years ago.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Sure, riders still get sick. A rider, or any person for that matter, can only stay super skinny for a short period before it becomes more of a detriment then a benefit. The body starts to break down. It was pretty obvious in the 2009 Tour. Maybe riders are just better with their diet, don't know.

How about this year's Vuelta? The multitudes of abandon's on the rainy day in the mountains.... the worst day on a bike ever (some of the more choice comments).

It was reported to be 9 degrees C. That's 48 degrees F. Certainly not pleasant, especially being soaking wet for 5 hours... but Milan San Remo was far worse this year. Those guys have more bulk to be sure, but I doubt the body fat percentage is hugely different.

So you have a chilly, rainy day and guys drop out like flies. Hypothermia. Seems odd to me.

 

[icefire]

How about this year's Vuelta? The multitudes of abandon's on the rainy day in the mountains.... the worst day on a bike ever (some of the more choice comments).

It was reported to be 9 degrees C. That's 48 degrees F. Certainly not pleasant, especially being soaking wet for 5 hours... but Milan San Remo was far worse this year. Those guys have more bulk to be sure, but I doubt the body fat percentage is hugely different.

So you have a chilly, rainy day and guys drop out like flies. Hypothermia. Seems odd to me.

To be fair, the forecast was 9ºC but actual conditions were reported as 4ºC. In addition to that, most teams and riders recognized that they had not planned for those conditions carrying the appropriate clothing and having team staff placed on the summits to hand it to the riders from the road. Even Valverde recognised this lack of planning in an interview in Peyragudes just the day afer he had suggested cancelating the stage if the weather was like in Andorra. Hesjedal in Giro 2013 seems more obvious (or odd) to me.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I have raised this issue about extreme low weight and susceptibility to getting sick and how during the build up to a high high peak you would not want to maintain that low weight for fear of compromising training, but no one wants to bite.

Then let's take into account Wiggins' bizarre situation. He supposedly loses tons of weight, which should decrease his power, time trials better than ever, and is finally being able to beat the best time trialists for the first time in his career. Now he needs to gain weight, lots of it, to gain power to have a chance at the world's ITT.

What strikes me even more about Wiggins is that he dropped off the map after winning the Tour. Other than being a laughingstock at the Giro, he's been invisible. Now he's talking about going back to the track. All this after winning the Tour.

There's no question that riders are ridiculously skinny. I believe there was a comment back in either 2009 or 2010 at the Tour about how incredibly thin the riders were. Yet, we keep seeing skinny guys crushing time trials.

Wiggins could win TTs while skinny, but now he needs to put on pounds to win a TT. Cycling is ridiculous.

 

[131313]

Give that Chris has been out of competition for 5 months he would hardly be targeted while at home training for the race

Actually, if you look at USADA's OOC report (available on their website), we was tested quite a bit while he was training at home. That said, I don't have much confidence in those who are doing results management of the passport, and I think he's probably jacked to the gills--but he's been tested a fair bit this year OOC.

 

[MarkvW]

Actually, if you look at USADA's OOC report (available on their website), we was tested quite a bit while he was training at home. That said, I don't have much confidence in those who are doing results management of the passport, and I think he's probably jacked to the gills--but he's been tested a fair bit this year OOC.

He's jacked just below the gills.

 

[masking_agent]

^^ to or below the gills is great for Andy Schleck's off season. I hope Horner lets him borrow "this new" regime. It should catapult him back to the top no doubt.

 

[red_flanders]

^^ to or below the gills is great for Andy Schleck's off season. I hope Horner lets him borrow "this new" regime. It should catapult him back to the top no doubt.

Even dopers have to train. Andy just doesn't like riding a bike.

 

[Catwhoorg]

How about this year's Vuelta? The multitudes of abandon's on the rainy day in the mountains.... the worst day on a bike ever (some of the more choice comments).

It was reported to be 9 degrees C. That's 48 degrees F. Certainly not pleasant, especially being soaking wet for 5 hours... but Milan San Remo was far worse this year. Those guys have more bulk to be sure, but I doubt the body fat percentage is hugely different.

So you have a chilly, rainy day and guys drop out like flies. Hypothermia. Seems odd to me.

Its not just the absolute temperature, its the massive swing from what they had been riding in,, just a shock to the system.

But yes being skinnier now, makes this even worse.

 

[sniper]

What strikes me even more about Wiggins is that he dropped off the map after winning the Tour. Other than being a laughingstock at the Giro, he's been invisible. Now he's talking about going back to the track. All this after winning the Tour.

There's no question that riders are ridiculously skinny. I believe there was a comment back in either 2009 or 2010 at the Tour about how incredibly thin the riders were. Yet, we keep seeing skinny guys crushing time trials.

Wiggins could win TTs while skinny, but now he needs to put on pounds to win a TT. Cycling is ridiculous.

you need to be skinny in order to be good in the TT as well as in the mountains.
if you only target a TT, like Wiggo now, i can imagine a bit more body mass would be advantageous.

 

[Race Radio]

Actually, if you look at USADA's OOC report (available on their website), we was tested quite a bit while he was training at home. That said, I don't have much confidence in those who are doing results management of the passport, and I think he's probably jacked to the gills--but he's been tested a fair bit this year OOC.

He has been tested 8 times so far this year, but 5 of those were prior to his return home from Europe. In the 5 months sine he came back he was tested 3 times.

A more interested figure would be his ABP tests and results

 

[131313]

He has been tested 8 times so far this year, but 5 of those were prior to his return home from Europe. In the 5 months sine he came back he was tested 3 times.

A more interested figure would be his ABP tests and results

Yeah, but 3 OOC tests are 3 more than most guys during that time period--and keep in mind that those results are now (supposedly) shared w/the ABP. I don't know if that actually happens, but that's how it's supposed to work.

But again, the ABP only works if you want to actually catch guys. I think the UCI likes the story of at least one clean American...

 

[Race Radio]

Yeah, but 3 OOC tests are 3 more than most guys during that time period--and keep in mind that those results are now (supposedly) shared w/the ABP. I don't know if that actually happens, but that's how it's supposed to work.

But again, the ABP only works if you want to actually catch guys. I think the UCI likes the story of at least one clean American...

Completely agree.

In understand the ABP testing was ramped up again just prior to ToC so it is likely he was tested much more then 8 times this year prior to returning to Europe. He certainly was tested the day prior to the Vuelta as well

 

[zigmeister]

I'm surprised in the xwind today that Horner didn't just ride off the front and put 3 minutes on Nibali and take the victory with all the juice he is on.