Why Lance will dodge this bullet.

[Polish]

FDA versus DEA?

Is it just me that thinks having the FDA handle this is kind of Wimpy?


Why not the Big Dogs over in the the DEA? (Drug Enforcement Administration)

 

[eleven]

where did he get the name 'Mellow Johnny's' ?..probably an inside joke referring to their PED habits.....

Texadizing of Maillot Jaune.

 

[eleven]

Yes, but this is a cycling forum, where opinions, conjectures, and the like are expressed, shared, discussed, ridiculed, etc.

yes, but claiming opinions as facts is not sharing opinions, it's claiming opinions as facts.

 

[Benotti69]

I was reading over Lance's deposition in the SCA case and I think the UCI and Lance are being a bit clever. There were in fact two payments. One made some years before 2005. And another made after he retired, the one for $100,000.

After talking about the $25M or so that he had previously donated "some years ago" (Armstrong can't recall the specifics), the questioning attorney asks:

(I typed this in from the transcript, couldn't copy and paste)

Now this was in 2005. So, I think this is a clear reference to the $100,000. So this raises the question, which should be directed to Pat McQuaid and Lance Armstrong, when was this money received and what did the UCI do with those funds?

McQuaid is only talking about 1 payment $100k not 2 payments of $125k, so how clever are they?

and McQuaid has said it was not wise to take the money, ie not clever....

this is gonna cost a lot in liars (re lawyers) to try and fight all this...lot of people in cycling who reputations are on the line, not just LA, Hog and named riders........i'd say hincapie can kiss his plans for a special sports village dreams goodbye...

 

[Publicus]

McQuaid is only talking about 1 payment $100k not 2 payments of $125k, so how clever are they?

and McQuaid has said it was not wise to take the money, ie not clever....

this is gonna cost a lot in liars (re lawyers) to try and fight all this...lot of people in cycling who reputations are on the line, not just LA, Hog and named riders........i'd say hincapie can kiss his plans for a special sports village dreams goodbye...

He claims that was the only payment after 2005. He fails to address the payment that came "some years [before 2005]" since that moves it closer to the 2001 time frame eluded to in Landis' email. That's how he's being clever.

EDIT: I've moved the original post to the "More to Come" thread

 

[flicker]

Floyd/Kali the destroyer. I wanted to see Floyd/Hamilton in the ToC last year to see what they could accomplish, this year I could care less after Tyler was banished once again. Those two are a pair. Floyd/ the anti Armstrong forum posters are out of their gourds. The breaking of OMERTA needs to take place in baby steps. Obviously Floyd/Forum posters do not follow other major sports.

The bottom line is this, all sports need to clean up. If Floyd/Forum/LeMond/Walsh/Betsy/Cosy beehive/Joe Papp choose to focus on Postal/Discovery/Bruyneel/Armstrong/Contador that is fine and dandy. However the ramifications are these individuals will push American cycling sponsorships and American racers away.

The other more important problem is it will make it easier for the other major professional sports to finger point at Lance /Shack pro and amatuer cycling and
basically show our sport to be BS a harbinger of cheats. While the major sports cheat and cheating will most likely amplify.

If I were an intelligent kid after all this comes down I would never even ride my bike to school after what is coming up. The bike industry is going to take a major downfall in what will happen now in the next 2 years. We must stand up and applaud Walsh/Betsy/Cosy Beehive/Joe Papp/ Mr. LeMond and Floyd Landis. It will be up to you folks to resurect the carnage and destuction on global cycling which Floyd Landis has precipitated.

I think we in America will be set back in cycling 30 years.

I am sorry about Bahati. It will happen to all US cycling in the next 2 years.

 

[buckwheat]

Indeed.

in both cases, the correct answer is "We don't know" and an opinion either way is simply conjecture.

<although, to be fair, I have my doubts about us being "about to find out".>

Of course we know.

Whether it can be proven in a court of law is a different issue.

Only ostriches don't know though.

What was (unnamed rider err) JV saying about being one of the cool kids?

They were forced to dope. That is, if they wanted a job riding for Lance.

Ironic how Novitsky is going to force them to tell the truth. That is if they want to stay out of prison.

 

[buckwheat]

Floyd/Kali the destroyer. I wanted to see Floyd/Hamilton in the ToC last year to see what they could accomplish, this year I could care less after Tyler was banished once again. Those two are a pair. Floyd/ the anti Armstrong forum posters are out of their gourds. The breaking of OMERTA needs to take place in baby steps. Obviously Floyd/Forum posters do not follow other major sports.

The bottom line is this, all sports need to clean up. If Floyd/Forum/LeMond/Walsh/Betsy/Cosy beehive/Joe Papp choose to focus on Postal/Discovery/Bruyneel/Armstrong/Contador that is fine and dandy. However the ramifications are these individuals will push American cycling sponsorships and American racers away.

The other more important problem is it will make it easier for the other major professional sports to finger point at Lance /Shack pro and amatuer cycling and
basically show our sport to be BS a harbinger of cheats. While the major sports cheat and cheating will most likely amplify.

If I were an intelligent kid after all this comes down I would never even ride my bike to school after what is coming up. The bike industry is going to take a major downfall in what will happen now in the next 2 years. We must stand up and applaud Walsh/Betsy/Cosy Beehive/Joe Papp/ Mr. LeMond and Floyd Landis. It will be up to you folks to resurect the carnage and destuction on global cycling which Floyd Landis has precipitated.

I think we in America will be set back in cycling 30 years.

I am sorry about Bahati. It will happen to all US cycling in the next 2 years.

Nice non sequiter! What the hell does having a great time riding your bike have to do with drug cheats at the top?

It's like not going swimming in the 70's after the E German women dominated.

Kids should stop playing football/soccer, and baseball because of Bonds?

Kids should stop running because of Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, and Griffith Joyner?

Way to shift blame and nice logic also.

 

[buckwheat]

McQuaid is only talking about 1 payment $100k not 2 payments of $125k, so how clever are they?

and McQuaid has said it was not wise to take the money, ie not clever....

this is gonna cost a lot in liars (re lawyers) to try and fight all this...lot of people in cycling who reputations are on the line, not just LA, Hog and named riders........i'd say hincapie can kiss his plans for a special sports village dreams goodbye...

That's why he gets in front of this thing early. He'll play the likability card and he was really working in service of bigger fish anyway.

Then the dominos start falling.

 

[VeloCity]

yes, but claiming opinions as facts is not sharing opinions, it's claiming opinions as facts.

Which, of course, raises the question of who's facts are "facts" and who's "facts" are "opinions".

 

[flicker]

Nice non sequiter! What the hell does having a great time riding your bike have to do with drug cheats at the top?

It's like not going swimming in the 70's after the E German women dominated.

Kids should stop playing football/soccer, and baseball because of Bonds?

Kids should stop running because of Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, and Griffith Joyner?

Way to shift blame and nice logic also.

Sorry bud. My kids are athletes. I point out the big dopers who have been busted in every sport. Kids on bikes will be teased and motorists will be running cyclists off the road if it all comes out in the open.

Like I said drug cheats across the board all sports. If Lance goes down watch how many bike shops close. Watch how many kids turn back to video games and Facebook than cycling and all sports. I take it you live in Siberia or Kazakastan or perhaps in Riccardo Ricos neighborhood?

 

[eleven]

Of course we know.

Whether it can be proven in a court of law is a different issue.

^This is the exactly the type of opinion-as-fact that I'm talking about. "we" don't "know". We have dozens of posters here who claim to know, but those are just claims.

Only ostriches don't know though.

What was (unnamed rider err) JV saying about being one of the cool kids?

They were forced to dope. That is, if they wanted a job riding for Lance.

^and this is exactly the type of he-said, he-said comment that proves nothing. We can have suspicions, but claiming all of this as fact is pure conjecture - and the conjecture on this board is just as biased against the leaders of the sport as conjecture on other boards is biased for it...

And of course, both sides are certain they are right, and ridicule the others.

 

[MarkGreen0]

Sorry bud. My kids are athletes. I point out the big dopers who have been busted in every sport. Kids on bikes will be teased and motorists will be running cyclists off the road if it all comes out in the open.

Like I said drug cheats across the board all sports. If Lance goes down watch how many bike shops close. Watch how many kids turn back to video games and Facebook than cycling and all sports. I take it you live in Siberia or Kazakastan or perhaps in Riccardo Ricos neighborhood?

Yeah I think it will just be a European sport again.

Where is cycling news based? Do you think it will close down?

 

[scribe]

Is it just me that thinks having the FDA handle this is kind of Wimpy?


Why not the Big Dogs over in the the DEA? (Drug Enforcement Administration)

Forget all that! The navy seals are penetrating the recesses of Spain and Italy right now.

 

[scribe]

Original thread question was - is there a way Lance can dodge this bullet?

This is not a doping test matter, but a criminal investigation. We know FDA is the federal agency in charge. They have a credible, experienced agent named to hande the case. Is Novitsky sufficiently motivated? Nailing Lance would add another well-known case to his prosecutorial record - fame, not fortune is what typically what motivates these career-investigators.

There are many federal investigations that go nowhere, including some that have been leaked to press. Somtimes politicians interfere and try to pressure to shelve the investigation - with justifications such as relative priorities, conflicting investigations by other federal agencies or some such seemingly valid excuse. Does Lance have any friends in high-enough places? Senators, congressmen, administration officials, FDA management? Given the recent PR reaction, it could be a risky move by a politician to get involved - it would probably not stay confidential at this stage.

That leaves how much evidence Novitsky will be able to collect to first get an indictment and then the eventual conviction - and what laws he's targeting as having been broken. This may prove to be a laborous and time-consuming phase, but given the facts are not in dispute, should eventually be successful. A press piece discussed that statue of limitations is 5 years for certain applicable crimes - the fact that the investigation is proceeding would suggest that the investigation does not cover just the US Postal team time frame, but also that of the Discovery Channel team, which started in June 2004. Lance's last TdF victory is from July 2005 - just less than 5 years ago.

The only way out for Lance would probably be a distraction - a new event that's deemed a higher priority for FDA and this agent to focus its energies on at the moment. But even in that case, the likely outcome is that the case would be just delayed, not canceled.

Probably the most impressive thing that makes Lance 'bullet-proof' is the LAF. How much money has it raised to date? Something like 250mil for the purpose of charity.

You gotta think this will place a significant amount of pressure on this investigation. Nowitsky had better have a smoldering gun, a body, motive, and maybe a real witness to boot.

 

[flicker]

Yeah I think it will just be a European sport again.

Where is cycling news based? Do you think it will close down?

I do not see cycling as a popular sport in the US in 2 years. I will tell my kids who the convicted drug cheats are in all the sports.

Since I live in the US I do not know how the British Cycling fans feel about drug cheats in cycling. I think Floyds admitions will turn fans and potential fans off the sport.

I would have prefered to keep our little American secret. That is just me though.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Sorry bud. My kids are athletes. I point out the big dopers who have been busted in every sport. Kids on bikes will be teased and motorists will be running cyclists off the road if it all comes out in the open.

Like I said drug cheats across the board all sports. If Lance goes down watch how many bike shops close. Watch how many kids turn back to video games and Facebook than cycling and all sports. I take it you live in Siberia or Kazakastan or perhaps in Riccardo Ricos neighborhood?

So what?

Will it deter YOU from riding or racing? Will YOU instruct your kids to find a sport other than cycling?

If you are trying to imply that this affair should be glossed over so my local Trek dealer can keep me in fresh patch kits, then try again.

When Madoff happened, did they close the stock market? When the Mitchell Report came out, did fans cancel their season tickets?

I think you are stating intentionally dense and obtuse positions because your false God is going to be defrocked.

Don't get me wrong, I am not an anti-doping zealot, nor do I think the ADA's or the UCI are worth a peck. What is clear is that the USPS team, as Landis is exposing, practiced as US Govt funded program of doping. Serious laws were broken, and from it was built the Lance brand and the Livestrong anti-cancer ploy.

As the latest ESPN article keenly notes, if he has not just lied to the fans but also gave false hope to those stricken with cancer, then he is a modern day anti-christ. I am not overstating it, look it up.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

1. When was Bonds clean?

2. You're making a rather large assumption that the facts in this case are at all analogous to the case against Bonds (who, by the way, is free to pursue a career in baseball)

1 bonds was clean in the early stages of his career, same as clemens. A baseball players productive years tend to tail off in a very pronounced manner. Bonds and clemens both had a period of lack of production followed by a resurgence that lasted for years. Go look at pics, the changes in his body from the roids are grotesque. his 'mistress' gave interviews about how disgusted he was about what the drugs had done to his....well ....let's just be discreet and say 'Barry's berries'. And he struggled to hit the long ball in the boudoir. (If that doesn't make you stop, nothing will.)

2 Bonds holds the record for greatest number of home runs ever. And he can't get a job. The biggest difference I see is that Bonds was pretty nasty to everyone, especially members of the media. People just loooove to hate Barry. Lance cultivated relationships with some and attacked those who stood against him. I see the two as quite different. I see the mich ultr commercial at least 1X/ daily. When I see an edit of that spot w/out Lance, I will come here and report it.

 

[eleven]

Don't get me wrong, I am not an anti-doping zealot, nor do I think the ADA's or the UCI are worth a peck. What is clear is that the USPS team, as Landis is exposing, practiced as US Govt funded program of doping. Serious laws were broken, and from it was built the Lance brand and the Livestrong anti-cancer ploy.

I agree with much of your post, but this claim is simply not true - for two reasons.

1. The USPS does not receive federal moneys. It is, at best, a GSE ala Freddie or Fannie before they were taken into receivership. Furthermore....

2. People riding for a team sponsored by a GSE are not federal employees. They are (were) employees of Capital Sports and Entertainment / Tailwind.

 

[MarkGreen0]

I do not see cycling as a popular sport in the US in 2 years. I will tell my kids who the convicted drug cheats are in all the sports.

Since I live in the US I do not know how the British Cycling fans feel about drug cheats in cycling. I think Floyds admitions will turn fans and potential fans off the sport.

I would have prefered to keep our little American secret. That is just me though.

As long as no big scandals effect the British then it will be alright, and the rest of the Europeans don't really care anyway.

What we're seeing I think is end of the high point of American involvment in the sport. The American owned teams will collapse and American riders won't receive any endorsments, and American kids won't think it worth joining the sport anyway.

The Americans have had a good run in the sport in past ten years, and some great successes with Lemond before that, but I don't think we're going to see the like of that again.

 

[MarkGreen0]

As the latest ESPN article keenly notes, if he has not just lied to the fans but also gave false hope to those stricken with cancer, then he is a modern day anti-christ. I am not overstating it, look it up.

I read it. I think it shows why US cycling will collapse. People simply don't understand the sport over there so the public reaction could be grave.

Having said that, ESPN seem to be spinning for Landis at the moment so maybe they are piling it on.

 

[flicker]

So what?

Will it deter YOU from riding or racing? Will YOU instruct your kids to find a sport other than cycling?

If you are trying to imply that this affair should be glossed over so my local Trek dealer can keep me in fresh patch kits, then try again.

When Madoff happened, did they close the stock market? When the Mitchell Report came out, did fans cancel their season tickets?

I think you are stating intentionally dense and obtuse positions because your false God is going to be defrocked.

Don't get me wrong, I am not an anti-doping zealot, nor do I think the ADA's or the UCI are worth a peck. What is clear is that the USPS team, as Landis is exposing, practiced as US Govt funded program of doping. Serious laws were broken, and from it was built the Lance brand and the Livestrong anti-cancer ploy.

As the latest ESPN article keenly notes, if he has not just lied to the fans but also gave false hope to those stricken with cancer, then he is a modern day anti-christ. I am not overstating it, look it up.

Everyone lies. Sorry that is life. If you haters want to nail Lance Armstrong to the cross feel free. I want a world of truth justice and the American way.
Just is not that way tough. If what Landis says is true,(and I believe him by the way) it is a problem across the board. If you choose to martyr Lance USPS team etc. OK. Problems with drugs in all sports. I just do not to want to see the sponsors leave though. It is totally sick of Landis to peg the sponsors as cheats. Obviously Floyd plays by his own set of rules. He is nuts and is soon to be a pariah. His karma is to walk the earth, alone.

 

[flicker]

Will it deter YOU from riding or racing? Will YOU instruct your kids to find a sport other than cycling?

Yes I will race and ride. I will discourage my kids from racing and watching cycling. No money in it and you must cheat to reach the highest levels.
I will encourage my children to go to university or trade school.
Sports are not a way to make a living except for the elite few.

 

[VeloCity]

Sorry bud. My kids are athletes. I point out the big dopers who have been busted in every sport. Kids on bikes will be teased and motorists will be running cyclists off the road if it all comes out in the open.

Like I said drug cheats across the board all sports. If Lance goes down watch how many bike shops close. Watch how many kids turn back to video games and Facebook than cycling and all sports. I take it you live in Siberia or Kazakastan or perhaps in Riccardo Ricos neighborhood?

Overreact much? Even if the biggest name in American cycling goes down, it'll be next to nothing to the American audience, compared to a McGwire or a Bonds or a Woods or any other big-name baseball or football player going down. Most people in the US probably still have no idea who Armstrong is beyond "that biking guy?". Besides, do you really think most American's who do have even the faintest idea of who is don't already suspect that he was doping? You really think, after Bonds and Canseco and McGwire etc, that they're going to be shocked and dismayed to learn that the top guy in a sport with perhaps the dirtiest reputation in the world was doping? I have no doubt that many will be disappointed to have it confirmed, but I seriously doubt very many Americans will be in the least bit surprised.

At most, it'll be a short-term, medium size ripple that will fade from US public consciousness fairly rapidly.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I agree with much of your post, but this claim is simply not true - for two reasons.

1. The USPS does not receive federal moneys. It is, at best, a GSE ala Freddie or Fannie before they were taken into receivership. Furthermore....

2. People riding for a team sponsored by a GSE are not federal employees. They are (were) employees of Capital Sports and Entertainment / Tailwind.

Defrauding the govt never goes so well.

There is a citation somewhere on the forum looking at the monies the USPS takes, and, yes, they do get Federal funding.

The employment issue could also lead to a Federal claim. An employer may not make breaking the law a condition of employment, ie, dope or you got no job.

US Federal employment law 101 right there, and I am not even a citizen of the US! (please, please, no applause necessary!)

These Feds will take their own, slow, methodical look into all the accounts, sub-accounts, etc to filter out the bad behavior. Think they won't find the bad stuff? Think again.

There are just so many charges that can come form this, such a cross-section of things to find, things to go wrong, things to backfire, it will all go down the drain.

Tax issues at Livestrong? just wait. Federal employment charges? seems likely. Mis-use of Fed Funds/Defrauding the govt? won't take much.

And all of it comes from Landis, and the leverage of the Feds on those who clearly can/will corroborate his claims. Leverage in the form of Obstruction/Lying to a Fed Agent/Contempt/Adverse Inference from invoking the 5th.

Lance and his final dance.