Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[Benotti69]

Re:

The fact remains, for a steroid response to Kenalog it has to be injected everyday. For a hayfever response that lasts 30 days it only needs injecting once.
The TUE lasts 24 hours. Kenalog is metabolised in 24 hours.

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/jaksche-on-skys-tue-controversy-we-used-the-same-excuse-in-my-era/

I think Jaksche explains it very well.

It is doping, with the help of so called anti-doping authorities, which we know are about PR rather than trying to prevent doping.

 

[samhocking]

He clearly doesn't understand how Kenalog works in terms of a steroid.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

The fact remains, for a steroid response to Kenalog it has to be injected everyday. For a hayfever response that lasts 30 days it only needs injecting once.
The TUE lasts 24 hours. Kenalog is metabolised in 24 hours.

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/jaksche-on-skys-tue-controversy-we-used-the-same-excuse-in-my-era/

I think Jaksche explains it very well.

It is doping, with the help of so called anti-doping authorities, which we know are about PR rather than trying to prevent doping.

Agreed, it's very clear why the drug is used just prior to a grand tour, take it from a person (Jakache) who used the same drug himself. Someone also posted on twitter a video of Hamilton and his use of cortisone in a grand tour.

Not sure why anyone would want to underplay the significance of the performance enhancement.

 

[samhocking]

The drug is metabolised in 24 hours. That means any steroid response (performance gain) is no longer in the body after 24 hours. You would need to inject every day to gain any benefit and if legally doping require a TUE everyday also. Wiggins TUE covers 24 hours only. Therefore he's saying Wiggins legally doped on one day only and the rest all illegally which can't be derived from one 24 hour TUE unless you mistakingly believe Kenalog isn't metabolised in 24 hours. It is, so he is mistaken.

 

[thehog]

Re:

The drug is metabolised in 24 hours. That means any steroid response (performance gain) is no longer in the body after 24 hours. You would need to inject every day to gain any benefit and if legally doping require a TUE everyday also. Wiggins TUE covers 24 hours only. Therefore he's saying Wiggins legally doped on one day only and the rest all illegally which can't be derived from one 24 hour TUE unless you mistakingly believe Kenalog isn't metabolised in 24 hours. It is, so he is mistaken.

And your credentials are?

It should also be noted that the Giro TUE was for 8 days, so there goes your theory, LOL :lol:

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

The drug is metabolised in 24 hours. That means any steroid response (performance gain) is no longer in the body after 24 hours. You would need to inject every day to gain any benefit and if legally doping require a TUE everyday also. Wiggins TUE covers 24 hours only. Therefore he's saying Wiggins legally doped on one day only and the rest all illegally which can't be derived from one 24 hour TUE unless you mistakingly believe Kenalog isn't metabolised in 24 hours. It is, so he is mistaken.

And your credentials are?

It should also be noted that the Giro TUE was for 8 days, so there goes your theory, LOL :lol:

It's not a theory that's how Kenalog works. That's how it's designed to work, that's how the manufacturer tells you to administer it for a Steroid Response as a daily repeated injection, one injection for hayfever prevention. I even cut and pasted it for you above.

Remember the TUE covers at that point 8 days forced no racing in 2011 which is why the 8 days.

 

[Benotti69]

He clearly doesn't understand how Kenalog works in terms of a steroid.

With all the lies told, who knows what else was given. Why lie on a Monday, but not Tuesday?

But again we do know Jakcshe's sporting history and experience and yours is?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

The drug is metabolised in 24 hours. That means any steroid response (performance gain) is no longer in the body after 24 hours. You would need to inject every day to gain any benefit and if legally doping require a TUE everyday also. Wiggins TUE covers 24 hours only. Therefore he's saying Wiggins legally doped on one day only and the rest all illegally which can't be derived from one 24 hour TUE unless you mistakingly believe Kenalog isn't metabolised in 24 hours. It is, so he is mistaken.

And your credentials are?

It should also be noted that the Giro TUE was for 8 days, so there goes your theory, LOL :lol:

It's not a theory that's how Kenalog works. That's how it's designed to work, that's how the manufacturer tells you to administer it for a Steroid Response as a daily repeated injection, one injection for hayfever prevention. I even cut and pasted it for you above.

Remember the TUE covers at that point 8 days forced no racing in 2011 which is why the 8 days.

And he can inject to his hearts content outside of competition.


And;

Kenalog injection is given by injection into the muscle of the buttock in situations where a lasting corticosteroid effect is needed. The triamcinolone is slowly absorbed into the bloodstream from this area, so one injection produces an effect for about three weeks.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/a6953/kenalog-intra-articular-intramuscular-injection-triamcinolone/

 

[samhocking]

Correct, for Hayfever, incorrect if using as a performance enhancer.

 

[victorschipolrijk]

Re: Re:

Walsh gives Froome a pass saying prednisone is not performance enhancing. Wiggins is getting thrown under the bus but looks like Sky have closed up shop as well.

Correct. The prednisolone is known to be ergogenic, and performance-enhancing in several other ways as well.
So to attempt to differentiate versus triamcinolone is effectively favoritism for Froome over Wiggins.

This concept was disingenuous on the part of Walsh. If it were true, then prednisolone would not be banned.

Walsh is giving Froome a pass because they both have the same "master"
He is casting doubts on Wiggo, because Wiggo doesn't work for the same master anymore.

Whoever says prednisolone, or prednisone (they are just about the same thing) doesn't improve performance, does not know what he is talking about.
If anyone takes 20 mg of pred, it will not only clear the airways, but a surge of power is noticeable.
If anyone takes 40, 50 or 60 mg, the boost of his performance is something that person won't forget.
Whoever denies these facts is either ignorant or a liar.
To say that former pro cyclist said that prednisolone is not ergogenic, is a lame effort to mislead people.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Correct, for Hayfever, incorrect if using as a performance enhancer.

Wiggins wasn't using it for hayfever or pollen :lol:

 

[thehog]

Re:

Just to recap:

4. The ENT consultant, Mr. Hargreaves, who is listed in the TUE as the medical expert who deemed the treatment necessary, is he the Dr. Bonar of the north, or somebody with a level of specialist knowledge that could make any suspicions over the propriety of Brad's robust therapeutic strategy moot by delivering a diagnostic coup-de-grace?

Hargreaves lists 'cycling' as one of his hobbies, no doubt that selected a fan to get the right letter signed off for Wiggins.

https://www.bmihealthcare.co.uk/consultants/simon-peter-hargreaves

He is also a head & neck surgeon, not sure what he is doing consulting on allergies but I guess in someways they are related.

 

[arcus]

I've been a respiratory physician for many years. I've practiced in European and American university affiliated medical centers.

For what it's worth, I have never used triamcinalone to treat asthma or allergies (nor to my knowledge have my colleagues). There are just too many more acceptable, equally efficacious alternatives.

 

[romnom]

Re:

Correct, for Hayfever, incorrect if using as a performance enhancer.

Sometimes less is more. Maybe it's not the drug that enhances the performance directly but the longer term suppression of the normal functions under stress that end up enhancing performance. You know, taking away something you don't want the body to do can probably work wonders too.

 

[thehog]

Re:

I've been a respiratory physician for many years. I've practiced in European and American university affiliated medical centers.

For what it's worth, I have never used triamcinalone to treat asthma or allergies (nor to my knowledge have my colleagues). There are just too many more acceptable, equally efficacious alternatives.

Thanks, in what context would triamcinalone be used on a patient? Would you agree that it's performance enhancing as an injection?

 

[TeflonDub]

Re:

I've been a respiratory physician for many years. I've practiced in European and American university affiliated medical centers.

For what it's worth, I have never used triamcinalone to treat asthma or allergies (nor to my knowledge have my colleagues). There are just too many more acceptable, equally efficacious alternatives.

Maybe it's only those respiratory consultants who also specialize in Cosmetic Surgery that know the value of shedding a few kilos as you clear up your airways!

You sound like a doctor whose interested in treating ailments and helping patients get better. Not much of a future for you in pro cycling, Dr. Arcus! Thanks for your insights (seriously, thanks, very helpful).
https://www.bmihealthcare.co.uk/consultants/simon-peter-hargreaves

 

[TeflonDub]

Re: Re:

Just to recap:

4. The ENT consultant, Mr. Hargreaves, who is listed in the TUE as the medical expert who deemed the treatment necessary, is he the Dr. Bonar of the north, or somebody with a level of specialist knowledge that could make any suspicions over the propriety of Brad's robust therapeutic strategy moot by delivering a diagnostic coup-de-grace?

Hargreaves lists 'cycling' as one of his hobbies, no doubt that selected a fan to get the right letter signed off for Wiggins.

https://www.bmihealthcare.co.uk/consultants/simon-peter-hargreaves

He is also a head & neck surgeon, not sure what he is doing consulting on allergies but I guess in someways they are related.

BMI Healthcare - the comedy gold just keeps on flowing. I presume BMI stands for 'Body Mass Index'?

So Brad's TUEs are championed by a professional fat-burning clinic with a consultant who specializes in cosmetic surgery? That's definitely who I'd go to if my hay fever was acting up!

Truth is funnier than fiction.

 

[arcus]

Re: Re:

I've been a respiratory physician for many years. I've practiced in European and American university affiliated medical centers.

For what it's worth, I have never used triamcinalone to treat asthma or allergies (nor to my knowledge have my colleagues). There are just too many more acceptable, equally efficacious alternatives.

Thanks, in what context would triamcinolone be used on a patient? Would you agree that it's performance enhancing as an injection?

.

It is a glucocorticoid (GC) that technically is indicated for treatment of refractory allergic disorders, but it has simply just been superseded by other therapies, including LTB4 antagonists and omalizumab, which he does not appear to have been prescribed based on the TUE forms (both were available at the time). I'm puzzled why they did not just use the more conveniently administered oral glucocorticoid, prednisone, which is generally (and understandably) preferred by patients over me or my nurses sticking needles in their butt.

I used it once in a patient with a condition called sarcoidosis. The patient had a severe psychiatric disorder and was unable to comply with oral prednisone. We figured that high dose Kenalog might give her more durable therapeutic levels if we injected her every few weeks. My perception has been that it leads to more sustained blood levels that orally administered glucocorticoids. I had a quick look on Pubmed to find really good pharmacokinetic data for levels after IM injection, but didn't come across compelling data (apart from an equine study, where it was still detectable after 360 hours, though I freely admit that Humans are not horses!

With respect to performance enhancement, I would think that it would share whatever performance enhancing effects GC drugs have (if they indeed do). The problem with a lot of WADA-banned substances and methods is that there is no quality scientific data that prove or deny performance enhancing capability (given ethical and funding obstacles to doing the research right). That said, on balance, my belief is that GCs probably do enhance performance, and that view was shared by Lance Armstrong and Michele Ferrari, which should tell you something. 40mgs of triamcinolone is equivalent to 50mgs of prednisone.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Veins

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015...s_and_Servais_Knaven_ad-a-7_1425777482382.jpg

 

[budegan]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/18/bradley-wiggins-world-anti-doping-agency-hackers-russian-leak

I wonder why Fotheringham didn't pen this? Presumably it's hard to work when your eyes are full of tears. Cry me a river Fothers, cry me a river.

 

[Benotti69]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/18/bradley-wiggins-world-anti-doping-agency-hackers-russian-leak

I wonder why Fotheringham didn't pen this? Presumably it's hard to work when your eyes are full of tears. Cry me a river Fothers, cry me a river.

Fotheringhams are fluffers. So is Richard Moore, see his piece in the Scotsman for fluffing the omerta, yet again.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/richard-moore-all-we-ve-seen-is-athletes-following-rules-1-4232985

William Fortheringham was supplied with a Ford mondeo to use for the month of July in France. Ford supply Sky cars.

Not hard to figure these guys really.

Expect a Fotheringham article in guardian soon backing Wiggins and not done anything wrong.

 

[thehog]

No one is talking... for a team who was always happy to spout marginal gains, they have gone awfully silent

A spokesman for Sir Bradley Wiggins last week suggested he might be prepared to sit down with one or two journalists to explain why he required three injections of a powerful asthma drug just days before his last three Grand Tours. By Sunday, however, that invitation had been withdrawn.

It was argued enough has already been said in a statement issued on the 2012 Tour de France winner's behalf that pointed out the triamcinolone injections he received were 'fully approved by the sport's governing bodies'. And they were. Indeed, on all three occasions Wiggins was granted a Therapeutic Use Exemption [TUE] by the International Cycling Union.

Freeman would not return the calls of the Sunday Times journalist David Walsh last week, despite a relationship dating back to the time Walsh spent with Team Sky to write a book in 2013 about the their Tour de France success.

So far the explanations given on behalf of Wiggins are painfully weak. He has failed to explained why he has not needed triamcinolone since 2013 when he stopped riding Grand Tours and focused instead on winning the world time trial title, setting a new hour record and securing a fifth Olympic gold medal.

If Wiggins will not explain himself, cycling chiefs need to launch a full inquiry given the damage that is once again being inflicted on the sport's credibility.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-3795579/Injections-flare-ups-vital-questions-dog-Sir-Bradley-Wiggins-does-not-explain-himself.html#ixzz4KenybMI1

 

[Blakeslee]

Stokes and CyclingTips are killing it, great interview with Jaksche on his use of the same drug as Wiggins:

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/jaksche-on-skys-tue-controversy-we-used-the-same-excuse-in-my-era/

Thanks for sharing this, excellent article. We definitely need more riders like this who are willing to speak out.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

I've been a respiratory physician for many years. I've practiced in European and American university affiliated medical centers.

For what it's worth, I have never used triamcinalone to treat asthma or allergies (nor to my knowledge have my colleagues). There are just too many more acceptable, equally efficacious alternatives.

Thanks, in what context would triamcinolone be used on a patient? Would you agree that it's performance enhancing as an injection?

.

It is a glucocorticoid (GC) that technically is indicated for treatment of refractory allergic disorders, but it has simply just been superseded by other therapies, including LTB4 antagonists and omalizumab, which he does not appear to have been prescribed based on the TUE forms (both were available at the time). I'm puzzled why they did not just use the more conveniently administered oral glucocorticoid, prednisone, which is generally (and understandably) preferred by patients over me or my nurses sticking needles in their butt.

I used it once in a patient with a condition called sarcoidosis. The patient had a severe psychiatric disorder and was unable to comply with oral prednisone. We figured that high dose Kenalog might give her more durable therapeutic levels if we injected her every few weeks. My perception has been that it leads to more sustained blood levels that orally administered glucocorticoids. I had a quick look on Pubmed to find really good pharmacokinetic data for levels after IM injection, but didn't come across compelling data (apart from an equine study, where it was still detectable after 360 hours, though I freely admit that Humans are not horses!

With respect to performance enhancement, I would think that it would share whatever performance enhancing effects GC drugs have (if they indeed do). The problem with a lot of WADA-banned substances and methods is that there is no quality scientific data that prove or deny performance enhancing capability (given ethical and funding obstacles to doing the research right). That said, on balance, my belief is that GCs probably do enhance performance, and that view was shared by Lance Armstrong and Michele Ferrari, which should tell you something. 40mgs of triamcinolone is equivalent to 50mgs of prednisone.

A genuine thank you for taking the time to post.

 

[sniper]

Agreed. Insightful stuff.
Btw, The latest daily mail piece quotes a doctor with some similar observations to the ones from Arcus.

Lol at the suggestion that "cycling chiefs need to launch a full inquiry".