Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

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Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

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Jul 27, 2010
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RobbieCanuck said:
I think I follow you, but I just want to be clear.

If AC had taken a supplement with clen and that was the proven source of the clen (because the onus would be on AC to prove, on a balance of probabilities, the clen came from the supplement), then regardless of the studies, he would still be guilty of a violation because of strict liability.

And then at the sanction hearing he argues Rule 295 and relies on the studies to show the supplement had to pass standards to get on the market and therefore when he buys and uses the supplement he had a reasonable expectation the supplement would not be contaminated, because it passed standards.

He then asks for a reprimand and no period of ineligibility and in that context his lawyer "could have gotten him off completely" Certainly a great argument.

Basically, yes, except for two key points. While WADA has always emphasized that it’s the athlete’s responsibility to know what goes into his system, there are several anti-doping organizations, in particular a Dutch one (forgot the name, I discussed it here back in the post-CAS period) that have listed some supplements as safe for athletes to take. And their standard for CB is higher than what Contador likely would have consumed, making reasonable assumptions about how much supplement he might have taken.

This is the first key point. The standard here is not something needed to get on the market (there basically are no standards of this kind), but needed to win approval of an anti-doping organization. They are guaranteeing not that the supplement is safe to take from a health standpoint but that it's safe from a doping standpoint. It's not an industry standard, but an anti-doping standard.

WADA could have, and I’m sure would have, argued that it was still Contador’s responsibility. But that’s where the meat, and the second key point, comes in. A good lawyer would point out that WADA makes a reasonable exception for meat that passes the inspection standard, because no athlete can be held at fault for consuming something judged safe for the population as a whole. The difference, of course, is that every citizen is assumed to have a right to eat meat, and therefore it’s the government’s responsibility to ensure the safety of that meat. The right to take supplements is not quite the same; in fact, as I understand it, there are virtually no standards applied to the industry at all. Very much a caveat emptor situation.

But having a well-known anti-doping organization on your side would be a very powerful ally. If a rider can be judged guilty for taking something on the organization’s safe list, it destroys the organization’s credibility. I assume they would get involved at that point. And a key argument would be that current technology for most labs (the Cologne one was an exception) can’t detect CB below a certain level, and therefore a rider consuming such a supplement should not be liable.

Here's the second key point, where this case would differ from others where athletes argue they consumed a contaminated supplement. Contador would not have to prove there was any CB at all in the supplement. He only would have to prove that the amount present necessary to cause his positive was below a reasonable detection limit used in the the anti-doping organization. Again, this parallels the situation with meat. If you could get detectable levels of CB from eating inspected meat, you would not be expected to prove the meat you ate had any CB.This is a much better argument than the one used by athletes who eat meat in places like China and Mexico, because not all of the meat there is contaminated to a degree that it could cause a positive. But one has to presume that all Euro meat might contain CB up to the detection standard. It's not something that needs to be proven.

This is shown by the extensive arguments WADA used to establish that Contador's levels could not have resulted from meat passing the inspection standard, together with arguments showing that the vast majority of meat available to him would have passed the standard. There would have been no need to make such arguments if WADA could hold an athlete responsible for proving CB was in inspected meat.

lBeing able to prove the CB was there is in fact never possible, anyway, strictly speaking. What athletes do is show that one batch from the company that they purchased their supplement from is contaminated. Even if it's only one in thousands, and therefore very unlikely that their batch was contaminated, they use this argument, and sometimes get a reduced ban because of it.

In the back of my mind I have always wondered if his lawyer chose to advise AC to admit he had not taken a supplement to bolster his credibility before the CAS, because it would have really sounded contrived if he came up with the supplement excuse, after AC had already told the UCI that it had come from tainted meat (before his lawyer got to him to tell him to keep his mouth shut about the source of the clen)

I think probably, yes, but all they had to do was be vague, saying he sometimes takes them. They didn’t have to commit his defense to that, only leave the option open. However, at the initial Spanish hearing I guess he would have had to state whether or not he took any supplements in the Tour.

Ripper said:
While there may have been initial denials, as the case moved forward, if my memory serves correctly, supplements were brought up as part of the defense and it was noted that he takes numerous supplements. I highly doubt that approach would have made a difference (and it may have also been tried).

Yes, but he denied taking any during the Tour. That was mentioned in the CAS report. Remember, prior to the decision, no one even thought that a contaminated supplement was a possible explanation. It was all meat vs. transfusion.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Apologies if this is the wrong thread, or OT, or already been discussed to death, but I am curious, having just looked at a map:

The rest day and test for Contador occurred in Pau, the far south west corner of France.

The closest labs to that locale are, in rough order of closeness:

Barcelona, Spain
Madrid, Spain
Paris, France
Ghent, Belgium
Cologne, Germany

It would seem some effort was taken to get that sample tested properly, innit?

Was an explanation ever provided for why the sample made it past Paris and Ghent at the very least?

ETA: this report on lab stats says all 5 labs were accredited in 2010: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/R...es/WADA_2010_Laboratory_Statistics_Report.pdf

25a6was.jpg
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Apologies if this is the wrong thread, or OT, or already been discussed to death, but I am curious, having just looked at a map:

The rest day and test for Contador occurred in Pau, the far south west corner of France.

The closest labs to that locale are, in rough order of closeness:

Barcelona, Spain
Madrid, Spain
Paris, France
Ghent, Belgium
Cologne, Germany

It would seem some effort was taken to get that sample tested properly, innit?

Was an explanation ever provided for why the sample made it past Paris and Ghent at the very least?

ETA: this report on lab stats says all 5 labs were accredited in 2010: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/R...es/WADA_2010_Laboratory_Statistics_Report.pdf

25a6was.jpg

Targeted. Find something that will stick. Who has the most sensitive equipment/best training ...
 
Jun 16, 2010
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Siriuscat said:
Not a tabloid reader, terribly sorry
Yes you are, you read the Clinic.

I accepted the dark side of the sport many many years ago but it doesn't stop me watching it and following the riders who appeal to me.

But doesn't watching any race with the knowledge it may be tainted by dopers give you reason not to go full *** with enthusiasm?
 
Jun 16, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
Was an explanation ever provided for why the sample made it past Paris and Ghent at the very least?

I could be wrong but there are two possible explanations

1. The ASO may have contracted with the Cologne lab to analyze samples that year. The UCI and the ASO were not seeing eye to eye back then about who should do the testing.

2. The Cologne lab had just perfected a new test for plasticizers and if there was any suspicion of a transfusion it would be logical to send the sample to the lab with the most recent technology.
 
May 15, 2011
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RobbieCanuck said:
I could be wrong but there are two possible explanations

1. The ASO may have contracted with the Cologne lab to analyze samples that year. The UCI and the ASO were not seeing eye to eye back then about who should do the testing.

2. The Cologne lab had just perfected a new test for plasticizers and if there was any suspicion of a transfusion it would be logical to send the sample to the lab with the most recent technology.

Or Contador was targeted.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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RobbieCanuck said:
2. The Cologne lab had just perfected a new test for plasticizers and if there was any suspicion of a transfusion it would be logical to send the sample to the lab with the most recent technology.

Except the plasticizers test was not approved / ratified by WADA, and therefore not really admissible, surely?

Do we know if all tests were conducted there, or just that test?

Also: the UCI complain of the financial burden testing places on them, where transport costs are cited as the greatest portion of said cost. Yet they send samples the longest distance possible? :confused:
 
May 19, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
Apologies if this is the wrong thread, or OT, or already been discussed to death, but I am curious, having just looked at a map:

The rest day and test for Contador occurred in Pau, the far south west corner of France.

The closest labs to that locale are, in rough order of closeness:

Barcelona, Spain
Madrid, Spain
Paris, France
Ghent, Belgium
Cologne, Germany

It would seem some effort was taken to get that sample tested properly, innit?

Was an explanation ever provided for why the sample made it past Paris and Ghent at the very least?

ETA: this report on lab stats says all 5 labs were accredited in 2010: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/R...es/WADA_2010_Laboratory_Statistics_Report.pdf

25a6was.jpg

WADA REPORT OF THE INDEPENDENT OBSERVERS
Tour de France 2010
(Published 28 October 2010)
, p. 31

TdF2010 Final IO Report 31 Results Management
Laboratory Arrangements
The Swiss Laboratory for Doping Analyses in Lausanne was contracted by the French Cycling Federation and ASO to undertake the core of the sample analysis for blood and urine in relation to the Tour. It is to be noted that as the UCI was not a party to the Agreement, UCI has limited contractual options should a problem arises with respect to the laboratory arrangements. The IO Team was provided with a copy of the Agreement which was signed prior to the start of the Tour. The Agreement did not cover the analysis of blood samples for the ABP as this was covered in an existing contract between the UCI and the Lausanne Laboratory.

In addition, the UCI advised the Laboratory for Doping Analysis of the German Sports University Cologne in Germany (via an email sent in advance of the Tour) of its intention to send a number of urine samples for analysis to be collected during the Tour on three different dates. This request identified that the UCI expected that the analyses conducted by the Cologne Laboratory would complement those performed by Lausanne Laboratory and that a focus should be placed on the analysis of new substances and/or methods drugs and/or with new analytical methods in use by the Cologne Laboratory. The email was the only document evidencing the arrangements made.

For those samples sent to the Lausanne Laboratory, the UCI requested expedited analysis of the negative results no later than 72 hours from the time samples were received by the laboratory. There were no such arrangements suggested or made with the Cologne Laboratory. In the absence of any arrangements, it was observed that the Cologne Laboratory reported the results within the ten working days as specified in the International Standard for Laboratories.
 
Jun 16, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
Except the plasticizers test was not approved / ratified by WADA, and therefore not really admissible, surely?

Do we know if all tests were conducted there, or just that test?

Also: the UCI complain of the financial burden testing places on them, where transport costs are cited as the greatest portion of said cost. Yet they send samples the longest distance possible? :confused:

Well that's right so that's why I said "its possible" and "I could be wrong" but it appears Neineinei has solved the mystery where s/he quotes

"This request identified that the UCI expected that the analyses conducted by the Cologne Laboratory would complement those performed by Lausanne Laboratory and that a focus should be placed on the analysis of new substances and/or methods drugs and/or with new analytical methods in use by the Cologne Laboratory."
 
Sep 29, 2012
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neineinei said:

Thanks!

So now it's a test of whether Contador's sample would have been taken if he was not in first place at the rest day. Too speculative to say really.

Would like to see a copy of that email, although they are easily replicated. Still feels a little dodgy to me. Why the Tour? Why 3 specific dates? What were those dates? Were all samples from those dates sent. Etc, etc.

Does anyone know if ADAMS shows the lab that did the analysis? ETA: Horner's lab results (2008-2013) do show the lab name.
 
May 24, 2010
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RobbieCanuck said:
Siriuscat said:
Yes you are, you read the Clinic.



But doesn't watching any race with the knowledge it may be tainted by dopers give you reason not to go full *** with enthusiasm?

Clinic .... okay suppose so ;)

Yes and I've been there often however... watching procycling is my drug
 

Justico

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Apr 22, 2014
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from http://inrng.com/2014/04/bruyneel-banned-usada-contador-marti/

Questions for Contador
But enough of the past. As Bruyneel fades into the distance others are are right in plain view. Take Alberto Contador who’s already a prime contender for this summer’s Tour de France because if Bruyneel has been banned, so has Jose “Pepe” Martí. Alberto Contador had worked with Martí at Discovery and Astana and when it was said he wanted Martí to follow him to Saxo.

A year later in 2011 Floyd Landis told German TV channel ARD that Martí was “nothing more than a known drug-trafficker“. Contador’s spokesman responded with a statement to Spanish paper AS to distance his rider from Martí (cyclingnews.com translation, my emphasis):

“Alberto knew Martí when he was at Discovery. As he was then a coach at the team, he was in charge of training. He also fulfilled that role at Astana as he moved into the Kazakh set-up after the North American team folded… …This year, the only people responsible for Alberto’s calendar and preparation are the members of the Saxo Bank team and Bjarne Riis. What he says about Martí is false“.

So there you go, a public declaration that Martí wasn’t working with the team or Contador dated 15 August 2011. Only today’s USADA statement also says the following (my emphasis):

Martí worked with the USPS and Discovery Channel Cycling Teams during the period from 1999 through 2007 and thereafter worked with the Astana Cycling Team. Most recently, Martí had worked for the Team Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank team until after USADA’s case was initiated

Note the USADA case was initiated in June 2012. USADA appears to be contradicting statements from Contador and the Saxo team that Martí was not working for the team. Was Martí working in secret or maybe USADA have got it all wrong. Who is telling the truth?

Why Lance has 0 GT wins and Contador 5? Seems unfair to me.
 

Justico

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Apr 22, 2014
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Arnout said:
He can say whatever he wants. Free world and all that.

That said, this kind of trolling won't help him be a respectable journalist with inside access. Feels a bit like attention whoring.

I see no trolling, a fair question.

That grotesque image of Riis & Contador cheaters being asked the "clean" question is about to be repeated soon.

A cycling farce.
 
May 27, 2010
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del1962 said:
I see this tweet from PK has caused a bit of a stir among Bertie's fans on twitter

https://twitter.com/PaulKimmage/status/458211911050752001

what do Bertie fan's here think, is it fair comment from PK ot not?

I'm not even a Bertie fan but what a piece of **** this kimmage is. This self righteous kimmage is a confessed doper himself.
Too bad for him he couldn't make it in the pro peloton and has nowhere near the talent of contador.
Kimmages mother should have told him not to cheat too.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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del1962 said:
I see this tweet from PK has caused a bit of a stir among Bertie's fans on twitter

https://twitter.com/PaulKimmage/status/458211911050752001

what do Bertie fan's here think, is it fair comment from PK ot not?

It's absolutely fair. I'm not convinced it's useful. It's more a PR stunt than actual journalism. Which has it's place. The USADA Bruyneel decision seems to have created some serious timeline difficulties for Conatdor/Riis - perhaps he should follow that up...
 
Apr 19, 2010
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Arnout said:
He can say whatever he wants. Free world and all that.

That said, this kind of trolling won't help him be a respectable journalist with inside access. Feels a bit like attention whoring.


He should just stick to drowning his sorrows and leave twitter alone. He's just embarrassing himself even further.
 
May 15, 2011
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dlwssonic said:
I'm not even a Bertie fan but what a piece of **** this kimmage is. This self righteous kimmage is a confessed doper himself.
Too bad for him he couldn't make it in the pro peloton and has nowhere near the talent of contador.
Kimmages mother should have told him not to cheat too.

RownhamHill said:
I guess I wondered what Kimmage's Mum had told him about using drugs to ride a bike. . .

EDIT: Sorry, just seen that Dlwssonic made the same point first.

I thought it was an unnecessarily mean and personal comment.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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del1962 said:
I see this tweet from PK has caused a bit of a stir among Bertie's fans on twitter

https://twitter.com/PaulKimmage/status/458211911050752001

what do Bertie fan's here think, is it fair comment from PK ot not?

Its a cheap shot. There should be enough material out there for Kimmage to avoid doing things like this. But whatever, its not really a big deal. If Contador fans get upset by this then they need to relax.
 
May 15, 2011
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the sceptic said:
Its a cheap shot. There should be enough material out there for Kimmage to avoid doing things like this. But whatever, its not really a big deal. If Contador fans get upset by this then they need to relax.

I got upset :D
 

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