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2017 Tour of Flanders / Ronde Van Vlaanderen - April 2, 260k

Page 44 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

So, who wins?

  • Démare

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Lotto Soudal

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Kristoff

    Votes: 3 2.0%
  • Sagan

    Votes: 64 42.7%
  • Degenkolb

    Votes: 5 3.3%
  • Van Avermaet

    Votes: 33 22.0%
  • Durbridge

    Votes: 4 2.7%
  • Gilbert

    Votes: 22 14.7%
  • Quickstep other than Gilbert

    Votes: 6 4.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 11 7.3%

  • Total voters
    150
  • Poll closed .
Re: Re:

18-Valve. (pithy) said:
rhubroma said:
DirtyWorks said:
rhubroma said:
What a wacky race. Sagan and GVA skrewed up royally in being placed too far back when Boonen forced the pace to open a gap. At that point QS had all the cards stacked in their favor, played the Phil one way earlier than would have been otherwise possible, who then held off the chase because Sagan rode too close to the barrier. Before barriergate, however, Boonen was KO due to a second mechanical after a bike change. It would have been interesting to see whether Boonen would been able to mark Sagan and GVA to then beat them (the second QS card) in the sprint after they caught Phil, had they not gone down as was the case. The variables are mind boggling, because Phil was impressive, but QS would have never played his card that soon had Sagan and GVA not been caught sleeping, and so he would have been a lot fresher for the finish to be able to win the race in any case. Had he, that is, not won it the way he did. What a wacky race.

Every year they have the depth to do this kind of racing and most years it doesn't work out at all. This year all of it worked.

Had Sagan not fallen, I think the run into the finish would have been closer with Sagan on the podium. Would Sagan have been enough to close on Gilbert? Who knows! I doubt it though.

A huge result for van Baarle. 24 years old!

Ahh, I disagree about Sagan and GVA not catching Phil though. The crash perhaps cost GVA 10-12 seconds AND no Sagan for the chase. Now at 5k out the gap to Phil was what 30 seconds circa.
Nope. The GPS was clearly wrong, seeing as Gilbert still had 29 seconds at the finish line.

Even so the crash cost GVA at least 10 seconds and no Sagan for the chase, which means Phil would have had only 15-20 seconds to play with. The last muur would have been really spectacular with Sagan and GVA going full gas to bridge up to Phil. Alas.
 
Re: Re:

rhubroma said:
18-Valve. (pithy) said:
rhubroma said:
DirtyWorks said:
rhubroma said:
What a wacky race. Sagan and GVA skrewed up royally in being placed too far back when Boonen forced the pace to open a gap. At that point QS had all the cards stacked in their favor, played the Phil one way earlier than would have been otherwise possible, who then held off the chase because Sagan rode too close to the barrier. Before barriergate, however, Boonen was KO due to a second mechanical after a bike change. It would have been interesting to see whether Boonen would been able to mark Sagan and GVA to then beat them (the second QS card) in the sprint after they caught Phil, had they not gone down as was the case. The variables are mind boggling, because Phil was impressive, but QS would have never played his card that soon had Sagan and GVA not been caught sleeping, and so he would have been a lot fresher for the finish to be able to win the race in any case. Had he, that is, not won it the way he did. What a wacky race.

Every year they have the depth to do this kind of racing and most years it doesn't work out at all. This year all of it worked.

Had Sagan not fallen, I think the run into the finish would have been closer with Sagan on the podium. Would Sagan have been enough to close on Gilbert? Who knows! I doubt it though.

A huge result for van Baarle. 24 years old!

Ahh, I disagree about Sagan and GVA not catching Phil though. The crash perhaps cost GVA 10-12 seconds AND no Sagan for the chase. Now at 5k out the gap to Phil was what 30 seconds circa.
Nope. The GPS was clearly wrong, seeing as Gilbert still had 29 seconds at the finish line.

Even so the crash cost GVA at least 10 seconds and no Sagan for the chase, which means Phil would have had only 15-20 seconds to play with. The last muur would have been really spectacular with Sagan and GVA going full gas to bridge up to Phil. Alas.
If Sagan would have gone full gas on the Paterberg, he'd probably have dropped everyone. Then it would certainly have been game over.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Irondan said:
DirtyWorks said:
rhubroma said:
Then, as you said, "it all worked," though ironically not for Boonen!

Yes. One of the reasons I like bike racing. There is such an element of luck. Equipment has to work perfectly, even for Boonen.

There's no way to know what a 2nd group with Sagan would have done. He was absolutely destroying his group before the crash.
Yes, he was. No doubt in my mind the second group would have caught PG within the last 4k, with Sagan's help but without it they were toast.
No way Sagan could have helped close 30+ seconds in the situation that would have developed. He would have basically just taken the place of Van Baarle, who was dropped at the point of the crash - as was Terpstra. Naessen, had he somehow managed to hang on the Paterberg, probably could have only contributed as much as Teprstra. So Sagan would have had to close 30 seconds more than Van Baarle managed to; possibly with GVA also holding a little more back than he did? No chance.

Come on, Sagan was clearly putting the hurt on the others. Surely he had more in the tank than Van Baarle. There was a chance.
 
Re: Re:

rhubroma said:
DFA123 said:
Irondan said:
DirtyWorks said:
rhubroma said:
Then, as you said, "it all worked," though ironically not for Boonen!

Yes. One of the reasons I like bike racing. There is such an element of luck. Equipment has to work perfectly, even for Boonen.

There's no way to know what a 2nd group with Sagan would have done. He was absolutely destroying his group before the crash.
Yes, he was. No doubt in my mind the second group would have caught PG within the last 4k, with Sagan's help but without it they were toast.
No way Sagan could have helped close 30+ seconds in the situation that would have developed. He would have basically just taken the place of Van Baarle, who was dropped at the point of the crash - as was Terpstra. Naessen, had he somehow managed to hang on the Paterberg, probably could have only contributed as much as Teprstra. So Sagan would have had to close 30 seconds more than Van Baarle managed to; possibly with GVA also holding a little more back than he did? No chance.

Come on, Sagan was clearly putting the hurt on the others. Surely he had more in the tank than Van Baarle. There was a chance.
OK, I concede there was a small chance. But Gilbert was still huge favourite. There are too many unknowns in the chase. Would Sagan, GVA and Naesen all get over the Paterberg together? Probably not - Sagan would probably have dropped the other two. Would they co-operate well? Would they all bury themselves to close the gap? Would they start playing games with 2-3km to go? Would Gilbert have dug a bit deeper if he knew the gap was coming down?

Just ridiculous to have 'no doubt' that Gilbert would have been caught. I'd be interested to see live odds from the bookies at the time of the crash - but I imagine Gilbert was a massive favouite. He had about 50 seconds advantage with one 400m climb remaining.
 
Re: Re:

Just ridiculous to have 'no doubt' that Gilbert would have been caught. I'd be interested to see live odds from the bookies at the time of the crash - but I imagine Gilbert was a massive favouite. He had about 50 seconds advantage with one 400m climb remaining.

I believe I said I doubted he would have stayed away without the crash, as I still do, because that 50 seconds would have been 35-40 with 18k to go. Big difference. It's ridiculous not to consider this.
 
Re: Re:

rhubroma said:
Just ridiculous to have 'no doubt' that Gilbert would have been caught. I'd be interested to see live odds from the bookies at the time of the crash - but I imagine Gilbert was a massive favouite. He had about 50 seconds advantage with one 400m climb remaining.

I believe I said I doubted he would have stayed away without the crash, as I still do, because that 50 seconds would have been 35-40 with 18k to go. Big difference. It's ridiculous not to consider this.
Sure, I wasn't referring to you - some other posters said there was no doubt he would have been caught. Which is ridiculous imo. The crash had a minor impact for me, I struggle to see the three chasers staying together after the Paterberg, and then the chase to Gilbert would have been fragmente and very difficult. Cancellara and Vanmarcke tried to close a much smaller gap to Sagan last year and couldn't get close - despite both perhaps being stronger TTists. Gilbert was just much stronger and I think paced himself to the line with the avantage he had. The gap went down to 30 seconds with about 5km to go, then went out again until the celebration with 500m to go - so I think Gilbert had a bit more in the tank if needed.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
rhubroma said:
Just ridiculous to have 'no doubt' that Gilbert would have been caught. I'd be interested to see live odds from the bookies at the time of the crash - but I imagine Gilbert was a massive favouite. He had about 50 seconds advantage with one 400m climb remaining.

I believe I said I doubted he would have stayed away without the crash, as I still do, because that 50 seconds would have been 35-40 with 18k to go. Big difference. It's ridiculous not to consider this.
Sure, I wasn't referring to you - some other posters said there was no doubt he would have been caught. Which is ridiculous imo. The crash had a minor impact for me, I struggle to see the three chasers staying together after the Paterberg, and then the chase to Gilbert would have been fragmente and very difficult. Cancellara and Vanmarcke tried to close a much smaller gap to Sagan last year and couldn't get close - despite both perhaps being stronger TTists. Gilbert was just much stronger and I think paced himself to the line with the avantage he had. The gap went down to 30 seconds with about 5km to go, then went out again until the celebration with 500m to go - so I think Gilbert had a bit more in the tank if needed.

Last year Sagan didn't go from 55km out. Also, the chasing group probably held back in the last few km also because placings.
 
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Re:

Vroome.exe said:
Lol Jancouver no way he is being motorpaced, too much distance between him and motos. And in the only photo where moto is quite close to him it was there for a second before accelerating.

Clearly, you have never rode a bike otherwise you would know that having a big motorbike in front of you, and the TV/Photo guy standing, provides a quite a bit of draft advantage even if the bike is 10m in front of you. ... and he had a TV bike right in front of him for many kilometres. Sorry, he ain’t no Tony Martin to hold off the pack for 55km.

I think the refs have realize that and that’s why they were calling the team car out when it was too obvious that he is getting too much assistance.

Well, the Steppers won, a Belgian won, so all the Sagan haters are happy.

Dirty win, still a win right? :cool:

17634377_1674700479213366_1931215156267552561_n.jpg



Hehe, this is how we motor-pace our juniors

17630058_1674700645880016_4521405546997663278_n.jpg
 
Re: Re:

Jancouver said:
Vroome.exe said:
Lol Jancouver no way he is being motorpaced, too much distance between him and motos. And in the only photo where moto is quite close to him it was there for a second before accelerating.

Clearly, you have never rode a bike otherwise you would know that having a big motorbike in front of you, and the TV/Photo guy standing, provides a quite a bit of draft advantage even if the bike is 10m in front of you. ... and he had a TV bike right in front of him for many kilometres. Sorry, he ain’t no Tony Martin to hold off the pack for 55km.

I think the refs have realize that and that’s why they were calling the team car out when it was too obvious that he is getting too much assistance.

Well, the Steppers won, a Belgian won, so all the Sagan haters are happy.

Dirty win, still a win right? :cool:

17634377_1674700479213366_1931215156267552561_n.jpg



Hehe, this is how we motor-pace our juniors

17630058_1674700645880016_4521405546997663278_n.jpg
We all watched the race. A few still photos, taken out of context, aren't going to convince most people. Sure, he probably got a second or two of drafting as motos passed him - as did the chasers - but they certainly weren't assisting him for long periods.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
rhubroma said:
Just ridiculous to have 'no doubt' that Gilbert would have been caught. I'd be interested to see live odds from the bookies at the time of the crash - but I imagine Gilbert was a massive favouite. He had about 50 seconds advantage with one 400m climb remaining.

I believe I said I doubted he would have stayed away without the crash, as I still do, because that 50 seconds would have been 35-40 with 18k to go. Big difference. It's ridiculous not to consider this.
Sure, I wasn't referring to you - some other posters said there was no doubt he would have been caught. Which is ridiculous imo. The crash had a minor impact for me, I struggle to see the three chasers staying together after the Paterberg, and then the chase to Gilbert would have been fragmente and very difficult. Cancellara and Vanmarcke tried to close a much smaller gap to Sagan last year and couldn't get close - despite both perhaps being stronger TTists. Gilbert was just much stronger and I think paced himself to the line with the avantage he had. The gap went down to 30 seconds with about 5km to go, then went out again until the celebration with 500m to go - so I think Gilbert had a bit more in the tank if needed.

Gilbert was amongst the strongest today, his performance leaves no doubt of this. However, Sagan and GVA were really good too and, but for being too far back up the Muur van Geraardsbergen with QS at the front and then Boonen causing the split, the race changes face. This doesn't mean Phil had no other options, because he certainly doesn't go from the Kwaremont with Sagan and GVA there and would have been saving energy for later moves. It just would have been more complicated. Even as it did play out though, the fact that Sagan and GVA were making up ground at the moment of the crash shows they had the potential to rectify the situation on the road.
 
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The "somewhat famous cobbled" rider finished last today among those that finished the race ... his legacy is getting better and better :D

121. USA FARRAR Tyler DDD 11'31" 5
 
I dont know if they would catch him but I am really pi***d we would never know. The fact is the half minute before the crash Sagan started pulling really strong and start droping people from his wheel. I am not even sure Nasen would hold at the top of Kwaremont with Sagan and GVA. GVA lost 10-12 second because of crash itself a lot of seconds because he has lower speed up the Kwaremont since then. Van Baarle was 5-6 seconds ahead of GVA at the top of Paterberg. He lost wheels before that crash already. He would be ton of seconds behind GVA and Sagan would they speed up Kwaremont like they did before the crash, sharing pulls before Paterberg and flyied up the Paterberg. I think GVA (with Sagan) would be there at least 20-25 seconds earlier than GVA was there. I cant say if they would catch him but they were fully commited to that short before that crash. Anyway. Great deserved winner and great Ronde. But without crash would be finale hell of a more dramatic.
 
Re: Re:

rhubroma said:
DFA123 said:
rhubroma said:
Just ridiculous to have 'no doubt' that Gilbert would have been caught. I'd be interested to see live odds from the bookies at the time of the crash - but I imagine Gilbert was a massive favouite. He had about 50 seconds advantage with one 400m climb remaining.

I believe I said I doubted he would have stayed away without the crash, as I still do, because that 50 seconds would have been 35-40 with 18k to go. Big difference. It's ridiculous not to consider this.
Sure, I wasn't referring to you - some other posters said there was no doubt he would have been caught. Which is ridiculous imo. The crash had a minor impact for me, I struggle to see the three chasers staying together after the Paterberg, and then the chase to Gilbert would have been fragmente and very difficult. Cancellara and Vanmarcke tried to close a much smaller gap to Sagan last year and couldn't get close - despite both perhaps being stronger TTists. Gilbert was just much stronger and I think paced himself to the line with the avantage he had. The gap went down to 30 seconds with about 5km to go, then went out again until the celebration with 500m to go - so I think Gilbert had a bit more in the tank if needed.

Gilbert was amongst the strongest today, his performance leaves no doubt of this. However, Sagan and GVA were really good too and, but for being too far back up the Muur van Geraardsbergen with QS at the front and then Boonen causing the split, the race changes face. This doesn't mean Phil had no other options, because he certainly doesn't go from the Kwaremont with Sagan and GVA there and would have been saving energy for later moves. It just would have been more complicated. Even as it did play out though, the fact that Sagan and GVA were making up ground at the moment of the crash shows they had the potential to rectify the situation on the road.
Fair enough. I'm still a bit surprised GVA and Sagan were both so far back before the Muur. It was an obvious action point and Gilbert - the third pre-race muskateer - was right at the front. I think alarm bells perhaps should have been ringing there.
Also, Bora especially, took their time to add to the chase because they had Bodnar up front - who was obviously no threat at all. They should have just gone to the front with BMC immediately to limit the gap to the Muur group. He who hesitates is lost I guess.
 
Re:

Keram said:
I dont know if they would catch him but I am really pi***d we would never know. The fact is the half minute before the crash Sagan started pulling really strong and start droping people from his wheel. I am not even sure Nasen would hold at the top of Kwaremont with Sagan and GVA. GVA lost 10-12 second because of crash itself a lot of seconds because he has lower speed up the Kwaremont since then. Van Baarle was 5-6 seconds ahead of GVA at the top of Paterberg. He lost wheels before that crash already. He would be ton of seconds behind GVA and Sagan would they speed up Kwaremont like they did before the crash, sharing pulls before Paterberg and flyied up the Paterberg. I think GVA (with Sagan) would be there at least 20-25 seconds earlier than GVA was there. I cant say if they would catch him but they were fully commited to that short before that crash. Anyway. Great deserved winner and great Ronde. But without crash would be finale hell of a more dramatic.

These were my sentiments. Crashes are part of bike racing. Still it is always unfortunate for the drama of the race, when favorites go down (and for such a wacky reason) at perhaps the defining moment. Since one likes to see the real undertakings, whether successfull or not, but never see them extinguished because of a fall.
 
Re: 2017 Tour of Flanders / Ronde Van Vlaanderen - April 2,

Sagan hit the barrier. Stupid steering mistake.
GvA was held up a bit by crashes before the Muur.
Without crash they would have caught Gilbert.
I am pretty sure Naesen would have made it until after Paterberg, the guy has talent.
 
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Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Fair enough. I'm still a bit surprised GVA and Sagan were both so far back before the Muur. It was an obvious action point and Gilbert - the third pre-race muskateer - was right at the front. I think alarm bells perhaps should have been ringing there.
Also, Bora especially, took their time to add to the chase because they had Bodnar up front - who was obviously no threat at all. They should have just gone to the front with BMC immediately to limit the gap to the Muur group. He who hesitates is lost I guess.

Bora were one of the first teams to put a rider up front with Orica to chase, BMC came in later. If you're going to criticise Bora, what about Lotto and Trek?

Trek especially considering they had bridged over to Sagan who was 6 seconds behind the Gilbert group at that time, but they mysteriously decided to sit up (Stuyven had as much use as Bodnar up front).
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
rhubroma said:
DFA123 said:
rhubroma said:
Just ridiculous to have 'no doubt' that Gilbert would have been caught. I'd be interested to see live odds from the bookies at the time of the crash - but I imagine Gilbert was a massive favouite. He had about 50 seconds advantage with one 400m climb remaining.

I believe I said I doubted he would have stayed away without the crash, as I still do, because that 50 seconds would have been 35-40 with 18k to go. Big difference. It's ridiculous not to consider this.
Sure, I wasn't referring to you - some other posters said there was no doubt he would have been caught. Which is ridiculous imo. The crash had a minor impact for me, I struggle to see the three chasers staying together after the Paterberg, and then the chase to Gilbert would have been fragmente and very difficult. Cancellara and Vanmarcke tried to close a much smaller gap to Sagan last year and couldn't get close - despite both perhaps being stronger TTists. Gilbert was just much stronger and I think paced himself to the line with the avantage he had. The gap went down to 30 seconds with about 5km to go, then went out again until the celebration with 500m to go - so I think Gilbert had a bit more in the tank if needed.

Gilbert was amongst the strongest today, his performance leaves no doubt of this. However, Sagan and GVA were really good too and, but for being too far back up the Muur van Geraardsbergen with QS at the front and then Boonen causing the split, the race changes face. This doesn't mean Phil had no other options, because he certainly doesn't go from the Kwaremont with Sagan and GVA there and would have been saving energy for later moves. It just would have been more complicated. Even as it did play out though, the fact that Sagan and GVA were making up ground at the moment of the crash shows they had the potential to rectify the situation on the road.
Fair enough. I'm still a bit surprised GVA and Sagan were both so far back before the Muur. It was an obvious action point and Gilbert - the third pre-race muskateer - was right at the front. I think alarm bells perhaps should have been ringing there.
Also, Bora especially, took their time to add to the chase because they had Bodnar up front - who was obviously no threat at all. They should have just gone to the front with BMC immediately to limit the gap to the Muur group. He who hesitates is lost I guess.

Clearly Sagan and GVA were inexcusably at mid pack, when they absolutely should have been with Gilbert and Boonen on the Muur. They began to lose the race there, Gilbert's bravura and their own crash finished them off.
 
What people don't seem to realize is that Gilbert can calculate and divide his efforts. Knowing that he had a minute 10K before the finish he probably gave 90% for the next 5K and then went full steam again in the final 5K. If necessary he could probably have gone ten or fifteen second faster. He just did what he had to do.

It's not just an individual victory. What the team did from the Muur to the second Kwaremont put Gilbert in an ideal position to start a long solo at 55,5K before the finish. Sure it's a huge distance, but there weren't that many riders left to organize a long pursuit. The team created an opportunity, bringing him to the final a minute ahead of his main rivals. Then he was strong enough individually to turn the opportunity into a victory.

At the age of 34 Gilbert has taken his greatest victory. This is a greater win than his LBL or even his world title, because of the way he did it. It's the race he will primarily be remembered for. He has now won all the big races that fit him.
 
Re:

[quote="Pantani_lives]

At the age of 34 Gilbert has taken his greatest victory. This is a greater win than his LBL or even his world title, because of the way he did it. It's the race he will primarily be remembered for. He has now won all the big races that fit him.[/quote]

I agree almost. Milan San Remo is more of a lottery than the other really big races and a bad investment as a target for that reason, but it is certainly a big race that a Gilbert who targeted it could win.
 
Re:

Pantani_lives said:
What people don't seem to realize is that Gilbert can calculate and divide his efforts. Knowing that he had a minute 10K before the finish he probably gave 90% for the next 5K and then went full steam again in the final 5K. If necessary he could probably have gone ten or fifteen second faster. He just did what he had to do.

It's not just an individual victory. What the team did from the Muur to the second Kwaremont put Gilbert in an ideal position to start a long solo at 55,5K before the finish. Sure it's a huge distance, but there weren't that many riders left to organize a long pursuit. The team created an opportunity, bringing him to the final a minute ahead of his main rivals. Then he was strong enough individually to turn the opportunity into a victory.

At the age of 34 Gilbert has taken his greatest victory. This is a greater win than his LBL or even his world title, because of the way he did it. It's the race he will primarily be remembered for. He has now won all the big races that fit him.

I don't think his team created the opportuny as much as Sagan and GVA presented it to them. Sure QS made certain they were at the front on the Muur, but shame on those two for not recognizing the danger of the trap they set for themselves by being so poorly positioned.

Then, without their crash, the dynamic of Gilbert's ride to the finish undoubtedly changes. Less margin to calculate effort for one thing. You're probably right though that this will go down as his most memorable win.
 
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Re: Re:

rhubroma said:
Keram said:
I dont know if they would catch him but I am really pi***d we would never know. The fact is the half minute before the crash Sagan started pulling really strong and start droping people from his wheel. I am not even sure Nasen would hold at the top of Kwaremont with Sagan and GVA. GVA lost 10-12 second because of crash itself a lot of seconds because he has lower speed up the Kwaremont since then. Van Baarle was 5-6 seconds ahead of GVA at the top of Paterberg. He lost wheels before that crash already. He would be ton of seconds behind GVA and Sagan would they speed up Kwaremont like they did before the crash, sharing pulls before Paterberg and flyied up the Paterberg. I think GVA (with Sagan) would be there at least 20-25 seconds earlier than GVA was there. I cant say if they would catch him but they were fully commited to that short before that crash. Anyway. Great deserved winner and great Ronde. But without crash would be finale hell of a more dramatic.

These were my sentiments. Crashes are part of bike racing. Still it is always unfortunate for the drama of the race, when favorites go down (and for such a wacky reason) at perhaps the defining moment. Since one likes to see the real undertakings, whether successfull or not, but never see them extinguished because of a fall.

Agreed, the drama was lost at the moment of the crash; and I'm convinced he would have been caught.
The race was poised for a fabulous final act, a work of tragic theatre; Gilbert the plucky, idealistic hero awaiting his dramatic metaphorical death in all it's brutal glory. What we got instead was like a schmaltzy Americanised romantic slapstick rewrite replete with sunsets and high-fives. I want my money back.

I feel bad for Boonen. His final time riding this race and his team make a complete shambles of the mechanical help needed. Very dignified the way he handled it I thought.
 
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3 Italians in the top 10 and 6 of them in the top 20, who would have thought that?
Say what you want about Pippo, but the guy has talent and class, I said it 2 years ago and I still think that he'd be a great superdomestique for Sagan.
A 10th place for Colbrelli is also a good result, the guy crashed into a car a few days ago and got dragged along for ten meters.
 

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