Astana rider details Contador's doping practices

[python]

so, it's tuesday 11:15 CEST, has anyone seen the actual article ?

tutto bici reported the article was the reason why wada delay the uci decision again.

 

[thehog]

so, it's tuesday 11:15 CEST, has anyone seen the actual article ?

tutto bici reported the article was the reason why wada delay the uci decision again.

Its shocking news. Its all over the web. There are some starling revelations. Even Bruyneel says it’s a new height in doping.

Give me a break. It’s a joke.

 

[Roland Rat]

Its shocking news. Its all over the web. There are some starling revelations. Even Bruyneel says it’s a new height in doping.

Give me a break. It’s a joke.

Ok, I've been busy so am not up to date but can't be bothered reading through 30+ pages of the usual bickering that pervades this forum these days. Where are we? Is it either:

1. Clentador's and Astana's doping programmes have been outed by Chris thingy, Armstrong's ex-mechanic who still worked/works for Astana and who will shortly receive a donation from Livestrong if he can evade the Kazak mafia long enough to live; or

2. It's a fake.

Is that right?

 

[Adamastor]

Its shocking news. Its all over the web. There are some starling revelations. Even Bruyneel says it’s a new height in doping.

Give me a break. It’s a joke.

If flemish Humo were such an insignificant magazine, french speaking RTBF (national TV) wouldn't take over the news so easily.
http://www.rtbf.be/sport/cyclisme/d...-sang-entre-le-dauphine-et-le-tour?id=3738393

Of course it's not all over the web. It's cycling, mate !

 

[Cloxxki]

I thought the lifetime ban was about using 2 seperate types of doping, within the same period. Wasn't Erwin Bakker banned that way?
Other samples with pasticizer can be found for AC once the test is approved. Can't be too hard. It would support the intended clen doping, and add a banned method. Say he takes a pill of clen (not sure how it's taken), and then puts this blood back into his body later, I say you're on a sophisticated program. Totally seperate violations, the bags were not part of intended use of the clen, the blood doping was planned, the clen violation addition in preparation.
If an athlete is on 2 kind of steroids, and get caught with one sample, I can see the 2 year maximum being used.

AC may be happy I'm not going to be his prosecutor. even if I do like the kid. Cute how he's open about his mentally challenged brother. He seems a great human beaing, yet a dark cyclist. He has the talent to be great even when clean, and it wasn't enough for him. I would have been happy with one clean Vuelta win for myself. Wanting, needing to be the greatest of all time, is another thing he would better not have learned from Lance.

 

[thehog]

fake. fail.

 

[hrotha]

fake. fail.

Care to address the concerns of the forumers here who have asked you some rather interesting questions?

 

[python]

If flemish Humo were such an insignificant magazine, french speaking RTBF (national TV) wouldn't take over the news so easily.
http://www.rtbf.be/sport/cyclisme/d...-sang-entre-le-dauphine-et-le-tour?id=3738393

Of course it's not all over the web. It's cycling, mate !

no offense, but this article is word for word reprint of the flemish article and dated 8 oct. it plainly refers to humo as the source. where is the news there ?

it's 14:30 CEST. did anyone see the humo article in the paper version ?

 

[Ney the Viking]

no offense, but this article is word for word reprint of the flemish article and dated 8 oct. it plainly refers to humo as the source. where is the news there ?

it's 14:30 CEST. did anyone see the humo article in the paper version ?

I have tried my best to find articles mentioning it, or maybe a scan of the paper, but so far nothing, bit dissapointing.

 

[thehog]

I have tried my best to find articles mentioning it, or maybe a scan of the paper, but so far nothing, bit dissapointing.

Its Belgium. I think the politicians are too busy protecting paedophiles.

 

[El Pistolero]

I'll buy one soon. The previous Humo also had a Contador article, but that was about the cook lying.

 

[El Pistolero]

Its Belgium. I think the politicians are too busy protecting paedophiles.

Nah, the Walloons are too busy in trying to maintain their Waffle-iron politics.

Next year they'll proclaim the people's republic of Wallonia.

 

[scribe]

I'll buy one soon. The previous Humo also had a Contador article, but that was about the cook lying.

Yeah. Like we need to pay for the obvious.

 

[Merckx index]

The Astana insider claims that some of the improvement came about by extracting blood to use later. “In the period between the Dauphiné and the Tour, Contador drained off blood - small bags, so that the blood values are not to disrupt the biological passport. The removal happened at a time when there was a trace of clenbuterol in his blood. And that trace was in the blood in the bag, until it was later put back into his body,” he said.

He claimed that riders only transfuse 150 cc doses, approximately a third of what was thought to have been used in the past. This is done to prevent problems with the biological passport.

Yet Maschiner said Kohl and his other clients did it this way:

He explained how he helped Kohl blood dope, giving details of how he removed blood, centrifuged it to isolate the red blood cells before it was re-injected during key moments in the season.
The bags were about as big as a tube of toothpaste but provided a clear increase in performance.

If red blood cells were separated from plasma, they could probably be frozen. Which means they could have been stored for months. Which means no middle-of-the-season withdrawal of blood would be necessary.

The only way I can reconcile these two stories is that if red blood cells were separated and refrigerated, the idea being they would require less storage space, and perhaps could be re-injected more quickly. But 150 ml. is not such a big deal, and why go to the trouble of buying--and covering up--a centrifuge if you're not going to take full advantage of it?

 

[pedaling squares]

Its Belgium. I think the politicians are too busy protecting paedophiles.

I don't know enough about Humo to speculate about the article's authenticity, but you seem to. You should enlighten us by revealing why this is a fake. You've posted some good stuff in this forum but in this thread you're starting to sound a little desperate.

As for the people who argue why Contador didn't need to take clen, ie he's already skinny, he's already got the power, you ignore one thing: he had clen in his system. Plasticizers too. He obviously ingested them, are you really going to buy the theory that he ate a tainted steak then swallowed a plastic fork, or are you able to accept that he cheated like many top-tier GT riders? Cyclists always have the strangest things happen to them, yet a certain percentage of cycling fans always buy into the wild theories.

 

[JPM London]

Yet Maschiner said Kohl and his other clients did it this way:



If red blood cells were separated from plasma, they could probably be frozen. Which means they could have been stored for months. Which means no middle-of-the-season withdrawal of blood would be necessary.

The only way I can reconcile these two stories is that if red blood cells were separated and refrigerated, the idea being they would require less storage space, and perhaps could be re-injected more quickly. But 150 ml. is not such a big deal, and why go to the trouble of buying--and covering up--a centrifuge if you're not going to take full advantage of it?

Also Kohl noted he did 400ml and that was fine within the passport (unless it in reality wasn't and that was part of what brought him down?). Although he did get some diluter to keep hct down as well, and if AC did do transfusions and no dilution then maybe 150 is not far off?

 

[Merckx index]

I don't know enough about Humo to speculate about the article's authenticity, but you seem to. You should enlighten us by revealing why this is a fake. You've posted some good stuff in this forum but in this thread you're starting to sound a little desperate.

I think the best reason for considering the article may be a fake is the discrepancy with Matschiner's story. It seems that elite riders do not transfuse whole blood, as the Humo story indicates, but only red cells, which can be stored frozen for very long periods of time.

 

[hrotha]

I don't know enough about Humo to speculate about the article's authenticity, but you seem to. You should enlighten us by revealing why this is a fake. You've posted some good stuff in this forum but in this thread you're starting to sound a little desperate.

This is like a reverse WSJ thread. I find it hilarious.

 

[JPM London]

I don't know enough about Humo to speculate about the article's authenticity, but you seem to. You should enlighten us by revealing why this is a fake. You've posted some good stuff in this forum but in this thread you're starting to sound a little desperate.

As for the people who argue why Contador didn't need to take clen, ie he's already skinny, he's already got the power, you ignore one thing: he had clen in his system. Plasticizers too. He obviously ingested them, are you really going to buy the theory that he ate a tainted steak then swallowed a plastic fork, or are you able to accept that he cheated like many top-tier GT riders? Cyclists always have the strangest things happen to them, yet a certain percentage of cycling fans always buy into the wild theories.

I'm happy to agree that he could well be a doper, but to me the steak theory is not all that bad - you must admit it beats whiskey, to much sex and unborn twins on the believeabilitymeter...

To me the plastic thing is far more incriminating - though as far as I know there are only claims about these values and nothing official and actually much known in the public - so I'm happy to wait until we get something more on that before I judge him in my personal court of opinion.

I'm looking forward to see the full Humo article. I'm not concerned about the fact the person allegedly behind the details is anon - how could he not be if he still wants a future in cycling? In line with other people here i'd also like to hear more about exactly why we shouldn't lend ear to Humo - disregarding it off-handed is pure LA strategy; let's leave those tactics to that side of the doping fight...

I have not before heard any rider say "freeze my blood and test it in 5 years if you want" - to me AC actually seems like he has nothing to hide. However, I'm not going to act all shocked if all the current accusations, insinuations and claims are all of a sudden corroborated.

Also I can't forget that as soon as the Clen pos became public and way before the plastic details came out Damsgaard et al pointed at transfusion as a likely source.

 

[Polish]

fake. fail.

Probably a good thing that Humo did not write a fake story about Spanish Meat being tainted.

They would have been sued by the Spanish Meat Industry for Libel or Slander.

 

[JPM London]

I think the best reason for considering the article may be a fake is the discrepancy with Matschiner's story. It seems that elite riders do not transfuse whole blood, as the Humo story indicates, but only red cells, which can be stored frozen for very long periods of time.

Does the Humo article actually indicate whole blood? Isn't it just a question of the level of concentration? And wouldn't it be likely that different methods are used by different riders/docs? What did FL reveal about the way they did it?

 

[Merckx index]

Does the Humo article actually indicate whole blood? Isn't it just a question of the level of concentration? And wouldn't it be likely that different methods are used by different riders/docs? What did FL reveal about the way they did it?

See my post above. The Humo article claimed that Bert withdrew blood a few weeks before the Tour, the idea being he was taking CB for weight loss after the DL. But if he used frozen cells, he would not have to withdraw blood at any time during the season. He could have collected the cells during the off-season, as they could be stored for many months.

My impression is that the riders who have the resources--and Bert obviously tops this list--freeze blood, as it avoids having to make withdrawals throughout the season. Also, it seems that when red cells are stored frozen, the bags used contain very little DEHP. If this is the case, then the DEHP test really isn't much good. It may catch second-tier riders, who don't have a centrifuge and who must therefore store and transfuse whole blood, but will probably not catch most riders who separate and freeze red cells. This also supports the possibility, that I discussed earlier, that Bert's DEHP values resulted from legitimate environmental sources, and not from transfusion.

Think about the twists in this case. It may be that Bert got busted for CB because he didn't know there were a few detectors capable of revealing concentrations as low as 50 pg/nl. Then he gets nailed for transfusion because his "natural" values are somewhat high. He claims he got the CB from contaminated meat, while a lot of people think he got it from transfusion, and both claims may have been wrong. He may have intentionally taken CB, and been a false positive in the DEHP test. Weird stuff.

 

[Mich78BEL]

Its Belgium. I think the politicians are too busy protecting paedophiles.

wtf, are you serious or is this a lame attempt at humour?

 

[Mich78BEL]

just read the complete article, doesn't say much more then what we knew last week from the internet-articel, but the article definitely ain't fake, its a serious article not satire or an attempt at humour

 

[JPM London]

See my post above. The Humo article claimed that Bert withdrew blood a few weeks before the Tour, the idea being he was taking CB for weight loss after the DL. But if he used frozen cells, he would not have to withdraw blood at any time during the season. He could have collected the cells during the off-season, as they could be stored for many months.

My impression is that the riders who have the resources--and Bert obviously tops this list--freeze blood, as it avoids having to make withdrawals throughout the season. Also, it seems that when red cells are stored frozen, the bags used contain very little DEHP.

Yeah, you make sense...