Bolt: 9:58 Now that`s fast.

[lean mean &green]

i hesitate to post here b/c it seems like a joke thread but what the hell...

Internal forces have yet to be modelled (last I heard). Any statement about what's possible is therefore debateable. A lit review in the 90's stated 9.6 was a theoretical possibility. Interestingly it also stated a change in the trend of shorter sprinters would be required in favour of taller ones. Prophetic..

if by internal forces you mean the kinetics of running/sprinting, i'd have to say that it is well understood. if you mean computer models of some sort, i can't speak to that. i will say that emerging technologies like 3D motion capture and accelerometers which are becoming ubiquitous (they're how your iphone knows which direction is "up" and switches from portrait to landscape), will contribute to significant progress in biomechanics in the next 10 years.

In Ben Johnsons 9.79 at Soeul '88 he hit top speed in the latter part of the race. Hitting top speed later in the 100m race was not the trend in those and Adrian Burden (respected Biomechanist despite working with fat lazy useless unathletic cricketers) described it as "incredible". It's fascinating that howadays all the best 100m men hit top speed later in the race. They must have all had cancer.

in very general terms sprinters can only produce positive acceleration for a few secs approx 4-5. success in 100m is usually determinded by who negatively accelerates the least (biomechanists never use the term decelleration). if they are hitting top speed later it is only by small fractions of a second. it is difficult to observe at full speed and the relative motion of other athletes distorts perception quite a bit. in simple terms, when a runner is successful in the last third of the 100m it is because they are slowing down less than their competitors.

 

[The Executioner]

Jamaica has great Track & Field grassroots development programs for the kids. They actually have a long history of great sprinters. Same with Puerto Rico. They raise them up to be boxers in that country. Same with the Dominican Republic. They teach the boys baseball. Now, you see alot of them in the Major Leagues. The USA does not have a monopoly on everything.

 

[Ozzie2]

It isn't that their coaches are anything special. It's that they're no longer being burnt out on the US circuit. Maybe some are doping, but not Bolt.

When he ran the other day I thought it was wonderful and I was filled with joy, you were angry and filled with hatred (despite absolutely no hint of evidence other than your own prejudice). I prefer my way.

Can I say I am_genuinely_happy for you. Truly. I’d love ot go back to the days of my TdF watching when I was ignorant to the truth

But a suggestion- don’t stay here if you don’t wish to ruin what you are feeling.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good feel-good experience

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

(And Jamaica have improved in the last five or six years because they've finally got some good coaches of their own - rather than sending their talent off to the US college system to be run into the ground. They've always had the best genetics).

Yeah and they finally found a way to have tested positive athlets back to competition without penalty. And yes the biggest talents better their own records by 4% in two years (100/200m). And yes Jamaica Doping-Acency is really tryin to test their athletes. In which world are you actually living??

Jamaica = the new GDR, just have a look at those Manwoman

By the way: Does anyone know that Dr.-Epo-Ferrari moved to Kingston Town? It would make sense. Nice weather, nice Woman (no i dont mean those Athletes), some smoke and in the evening some injections.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Can I say I am_genuinely_happy for you. Truly. I’d love ot go back to the days of my TdF watching when I was ignorant to the truth

But a suggestion- don’t stay here if you don’t wish to ruin what you are feeling.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good feel-good experience

You get better everyday. I think those Fanboys have some early part of autism. I have no other else idea how so much people can ignore the truth completly and live in their own fantasy world.

I feel like in the Matrix. It seems we in the clinic swallowed the wrong pill

Up the irons

 

[cromagnon]

if by internal forces you mean the kinetics of running/sprinting

No, internal forces so as to be able to say things like "the vastus lateralis is transmitting x newtons of force to the petalla in the following vector during this activity" without being mocked at by your peers. Kind of the holy grail of biomech (last I heard). "Why is that relevant" you are probably thick enough to ask, because if you want to make predictions such as "under 9 seconds" the more you know about forces and their speed and direction of application and stretch reflex properties of tissue the better you can predict things.

Algorithms for 3d motion capture have been around for decades, the only significant improvements have been in the identification of joint centres using something like Nike's full body suit but it's getting into serious law of diminishing returns territory.

if they are hitting top speed later it is only by small fractions of a second. it is difficult to observe at full speed and the relative motion of other athletes distorts perception quite a bit.

lol. Just lol.

Thanks Dr. but they actually hit top speed post 60m based on case study data not from watching the TV

(btw seconds are used to measure time not velocity)

in simple terms, when a runner is successful in the last third of the 100m it is because they are slowing down less than their competitors.

Of the two of us I'm not the one that needs things stated in simple terms mate. You have ventured into subject area you have no clue about and should just be quiet. Thx. Bye.

 

[Ozzie2]

ouch. My brain hurts from reading that

I think I'll go with Dr Bob Marley, another from the Caribbean

quoth I..."wow. that some good sh*t mon"

 

[Cloxxki]

Folks, you need to take one factor more seriously in sports performance : SCALE.

Scale is better understood when taking all relative dimension x2.

So, the average sprinting male may be 1m85.
This give us a 3m70 tall giant. Perfectly proportioned. On a picture in front of a white wall, you would not know his size, unless seeing him next to a car, handling a basketball, next to someone else, etc.

Now, what would the friendly giant weigh? Hold on... 90kgx2³=720kg. Yes, more than a horse. Twice as tall, twice as wide, twice the depth.
Lung capacity? 7 litres x 2³ = 56 litres or so.
Stride length? Now this is a bit less easy. while the giant is twice the size, gravity pulls on him witht he same acceleration. When just walking along, for sure stride length would be exactly twice as long. Yet, cadence would NOT be half, I think. So, a giant walks a bit faster than a human.
If you don't believe it, scale up further. Could you keep up with a 10-story tall giant, just walking alone? Same, imagine the 10-story giant cycling along, on his proportionate 5-story tall bicycle. Just riding along, would he do a mere 20mph, but to scale sucking him back?

You may say this is all irrelevant, but it's not.
Many things in sports level out the performance. Tall guys stride slower, but take larger steps. It SEEMS to even out, but that's an illusion. The lack of significant scale makes the correllation hard to identify. Taller IS quicker, allelse being the same. It just never is.
But here we have a semi-giant. Slight build for a giant. Flexible fast-twitch muscles, capable of propelling the extra weight in a proportionate fashion.

Now think about air drag. Twice the height means 4x the frontal surface. A running garage door? Yes, but Mr. TwiceAsTall would have 8x the weight and muscle behind it...

Bolt isn't twice as tall. Perhaps only 10% compared to a conwservative average. But he's scaling up. Not afraid to try.

People have told me I would never be a good climber, let alone on a mountainbike, as I'm 6'4" and NOT roadie-skinny. Turns out, I could climb with the best in my class. The racerboy types were actually faster in a straight line, as my lanky build adds less power than it does height.

Scale and proportions, people...
Sports is not fair. The greatest talent will not need (as much) dope to win. genetic exception rule the sport for decades, a doper for a year or two, even a day or two.

 

[DrNoTime]

It is a shame that no one can break a record without most people (myself included) wondering what type of PED they are on.

 

[lean mean &green]

No, internal forces so as to be able to say things like "the vastus lateralis is transmitting x newtons of force to the petalla in the following vector during this activity" without being mocked at by your peers. Kind of the holy grail of biomech (last I heard). "Why is that relevant" you are probably thick enough to ask, because if you want to make predictions such as "under 9 seconds" the more you know about forces and their speed and direction of application and stretch reflex properties of tissue the better you can predict things.

what i have bolded is what i earlier, or a real biomechanist, calls the study of kinetics. i'm surprised you didn't already know this from reading one or two case studies, maybe you should take a grad class/read a few texts to fill in some of the missing pieces.

Algorithms for 3d motion capture have been around for decades, the only significant improvements have been in the identification of joint centres using something like Nike's full body suit but it's getting into serious law of diminishing returns territory.
.

i think there are some advances you're unfamiliar with, we'll leave it at that old timer.

lol. Just lol.

Thanks Dr. but they actually hit top speed post 60m based on case study data not from watching the TV

(btw seconds are used to measure time not velocity)

right, except i was referring to time/duration, positive acceleration only takes place until about 5 sec's. maybe a little beyond that in world class sprinters, not much more than 6 sec's. how much ground has been covered after this time........drum roll please........about 60m! you just need to read more carefully.

if the following graphic is accurate, it also dispells the statements of the biomechanist you quoted earlier and the statements about ben johnson and bolt. it appears many of the record breakers reach top speed at the 50-60m split Bolt included. Asafa in 2005 is a bit of an anamoly but actually reaches top speed later than Bolt. however, it clearly demonstrates what i have stated about less negative acceleration contributing to success.

Of the two of us I'm not the one that needs things stated in simple terms mate. You have ventured into subject area you have no clue about and should just be quiet. Thx. Bye.

i wasn't really posting for your benefit, just for anyone who may have been mislead by your vague post and who might be thinking postive acceleration occurs up until late in a 100m event. my motivation for posting is the uneasiness i felt when i thought of an inexperienced but well meaning high school track coach reading your earlier post and making bad decisions with his/her athletes based upon it. based upon your angry and patronizing demeanor i really don't care what you think.

i'm not going to tell you to be quiet either, i encourage you to post and debate freely, just try and be polite.

 

[lean mean &green]

So, the average sprinting male may be 1m85.
This give us a 3m70 tall giant. Perfectly proportioned. On a picture in front of a white wall, you would not know his size, unless seeing him next to a car, handling a basketball, next to someone else, etc.

taller individuals rarely maintain the same proportions. it's well understood that long bones like the femur are larger in proportion to the size of the individual than short, flat, or irregular bones of the torso/trunk when compared to shorter individuals. long bones are mostly found in the arms, legs, fingers, and toes. ie the levers of utmost importance to motion are effected but width and surface area are less effected. taller is not just bigger, often times it is also "different". it's concievable that smaller differences in height could lead to "significantly" different results. (significant in everyday terms, not statistical terms people) i understand your argument but scaling x2 is questionable here. i wouldn't take that approach

this does not contradict your claim. if you continue on this path of reasoning it would most likely support the taller with the perfect complement of other genetic gifts is better argument. Ie stride length increases faster then breaking/friction forces.

i'm not saying he is clean or dirty, just helping the argument along here.

 

[Cobber]

In the link I posted before (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111966837), the interviewee stated that taller runners will have an advantage in the latter part of the race due to a longer stride, but are at a disadvantage earlier in the race, because it takes them longer to get up to speed. The amazing thing about Bolt is that he seems to get up to speed as quick (or quicker) than his shorter rivals and still benefits later in the race. The table posted by Lean, Mean &Green seems to support this observation. Compared to Asafa Powell, Bolt wins every part of the race except the last 10 meters, where he was obviously not going flat out, and reaction time.

 

[Turgoned]

Yet another training mate to Usain Bolt is caught according to big swedish paper Aftonbladet.

Source:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/friidrott/article5661654.ab

 

[Anonymous]

Yet another training mate to Usain Bolt is caught according to big swedish paper Aftonbladet.

Source:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/friidrott/article5661654.ab

No, really?...

 

[Ferminal]

what i have bolded is what i earlier, or a real biomechanist, calls the study of kinetics. i'm surprised you didn't already know this from reading one or two case studies, maybe you should take a grad class/read a few texts to fill in some of the missing pieces.



i think there are some advances you're unfamiliar with, we'll leave it at that old timer.



right, except i was referring to time/duration, positive acceleration only takes place until about 5 sec's. maybe a little beyond that in world class sprinters, not much more than 6 sec's. how much ground has been covered after this time........drum roll please........about 60m! you just need to read more carefully.

if the following graphic is accurate, it also dispells the statements of the biomechanist you quoted earlier and the statements about ben johnson and bolt. it appears many of the record breakers reach top speed at the 50-60m split Bolt included. Asafa in 2005 is a bit of an anamoly but actually reaches top speed later than Bolt. however, it clearly demonstrates what i have stated about less negative acceleration contributing to success.

i wasn't really posting for your benefit, just for anyone who may have been mislead by your vague post and who might be thinking postive acceleration occurs up until late in a 100m event. my motivation for posting is the uneasiness i felt when i thought of an inexperienced but well meaning high school track coach reading your earlier post and making bad decisions with his/her athletes based upon it. based upon your angry and patronizing demeanor i really don't care what you think.

i'm not going to tell you to be quiet either, i encourage you to post and debate freely, just try and be polite.

Excellent.

 

[TRDean]

The point about the Jamaican testing regime, which was roundly criticised in July of this year, is it is not thorough at all. Very different to cycling and its blood passports.

A lot of you guys are going to have to start following athletics soon methinks, if you want to continue to get your little scandal buzz.

What are you a bung hole?

 

[clearhop]

I don't know why Bolt's result is suspect. His VAM was something like zero.

I liked this one the most.

 

[Anonymous]

What are you a bung hole?

No, he is the whole bung...

 

[Oldman]

Excellent.

It does point out the sheer stride this dude has, also. How he starts that fast for a big man is the most suspicious element for me. Aside from that, I got nothing.

 

[ridley]

It's a real shame you haters don't believe in miracles.

God only knows how fast he'll really go when he is a fully matured man in two years. I'm thinking under 9 seconds, easy. And if he keeps training while others are sitting around, maybe under 8.

Especially if it is an uphill finish !!!

 

[Delicato]

My personal "favourite" is now Caster Semenya- I guess everyone saw that ridiculous 800m race yesterday

 

[Avoriaz]

My personal "favourite" is now Caster Semenya- I guess everyone saw that ridiculous 800m race yesterday

Apparently, if she believes she is a woman then it isn't cheating

 

[Mellow Velo]

Well, you have to wonder, don't you? Jamaican sprinters continue to make mincemeat of both the records and opposition, and we know there is plenty of dirt amongst the "also rans".
Now, we have this:-



At least cycling shouldn't suffer from competitors of "questionable" gender.
The statistics tell the tale:

Controversy has dogged the 18- year-old since she posted a world leading personal best time of 1 minute 56.72 seconds – an eight second improvement on her time last year – to win gold at the African Junior Championships in Mauritius last month.

– Semenya's notably developed frame was further exaggerated. As the athletes took off, Semenya lead from the start, determined to ignore the media speculation and focus on her race. The gold medal winner never looked threatened and finished well ahead of the pack with a new personal best of 1:55.45.

So, that's now, a 9 second improvement. Half a second faster than Kelly Holmes ever ran.
I wonder what the IOC testing will turn up?

 

[TRDean]

Well, you have to wonder, don't you? Jamaican sprinters continue to make mincemeat of both the records and opposition, and we know there is plenty of dirt amongst the "also rans".
Now, we have this:-



At least cycling shouldn't suffer from competitors of "questionable" gender.
The statistics tell the tale:

Controversy has dogged the 18- year-old since she posted a world leading personal best time of 1 minute 56.72 seconds – an eight second improvement on her time last year – to win gold at the African Junior Championships in Mauritius last month.

– Semenya's notably developed frame was further exaggerated. As the athletes took off, Semenya lead from the start, determined to ignore the media speculation and focus on her race. The gold medal winner never looked threatened and finished well ahead of the pack with a new personal best of 1:55.45.

So, that's now, a 9 second improvement. Half a second faster than Kelly Holmes ever ran.
I wonder what the IOC testing will turn up?

The testing the IOC will do will show she has a fully developed penis!!

 

[danielf]

Insane Usain

Re: Usain Bolt.

Did he not win the under-20 world junior championships when he was only 15 years old? Does that not show he was a phenomenal athletic talent at that age, or do people think he was doping at 15 years old?

Personally i'm skeptical about a lot in athletics and cycling (you'd have to be given what we know about previous cases, etc), but that doesn't mean surely that if someone wins they HAVE to be a doper. Like look at his record. He has always been sensational. Its not as if he was a late developer.