British Doctor claims he doped 150 sports stars including Br

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Apr 3, 2016
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sniper said:
kwikki said:
thehog said:
ebandit said:
first....authenticate....how simple is that concept......................................

Mark L

That's what the Sunday Times did, authencate the story from the whistleblower by recording the doctor on tape.

It's very simple.

But that is an oversimplification. They authenticated that Boner was offering to administer and manage PEDS.

They did not authenticate Boner's claims about his client base.

It seems a little rash to start speculating as to who the "TdF" cyclist might be when we have no reason to believe that there actually was one beyond the words of Boner, but have some reasons to doubt Boner's claims.
you're now overcomplicating the matter.
there are all sorts of reasons to speculate.

UKAD and CADF should be target testing all British GT cyclists from now on. And send the samples to Cologne, not Lausanne.

It is possible to believe that Dr Boner does not have any British TdF cyclists on his books, whilst simultaneously believing that somebody else does.
What's the added value of this assumption?
One can assume anything one wants, but if one wants to clean things up the only useful assumption is to assume guilt of all parties involved here and start criminal investigations. I wanna see drugs busts, people stepping down, athletes getting popped.
It's not gonna happen, but it should.

It's not an assumption, it is the exact opposite. It's a restatement of the facts we have and a suggestion that it is unwise to start building a case based on a series of assumptions. The argument seems to be Geraint Thomas is a doper because Boner says he doped TdF cyclists. How is that a helpful way to proceed?

That is a genuine question.

It seems to me that if you make accusations, and you actually want to get somewhere with them, then you need a pretty solid case. Otherwise, what you end up doing when you lose the case through lack of coherent evidence is to actually strengthen the position of the accused, and give them the opportunity to present them self as the wronged party.

Far better to take what you can out of each individual circumstances, and keep looking out for more. In this case, what can be taken is the possibility that UKAD is either inept, or corrupt, or both.

Pursue that, rather than ruining what you have got by trying to overextend it, and then take the next step after.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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thehog said:
...
Exactly. UKAD did nothing.

Hence why there is now a government inquiry into their conduct.
Lord Moynihan is now officially at the forefront of the fight against doping in the UK.
If he keeps up the fight, he'll discover how lonely it is up there.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
thehog said:
...
Exactly. UKAD did nothing.

Hence why there is now a government inquiry into their conduct.
Lord Moynihan is now officially at the forefront of the fight against doping in the UK.
If he keeps up the fight, he'll discover how lonely it is up there.

Eh?

Did you miss the entire saga in 2012, when the British Olympic Comittee wanted to maintain its ban on British athletes competing in the UK olympics if they had served more than a 6 month ban for doping? They were opposed by WADA and taken to CAS.

Let me repeat....it was the British Olympic Committee, taking a tougher stance than WADA would allow. This was right in the run up to the London Olympics. It was all over the news, and there was very little opposition to the BOA stance from anybody within the UK.

The situation is not as simplistic as you seem to want to present. Moynihan has held and voiced the same position on bans and criminalisation for years. The opposition to it comes from WADA.
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
thehog said:
...
Exactly. UKAD did nothing.

Hence why there is now a government inquiry into their conduct.
Lord Moynihan is now officially at the forefront of the fight against doping in the UK.
If he keeps up the fight, he'll discover how lonely it is up there.


Yes, with all that 'independence' the UCI/WADA/UKAD having been going on about they still managed to bury an organised doping ring good and proper.

Brits for the win!
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Cannibal72 said:
Another key element of this culture's iconography is the Second World War; it's not for nothing that arguably the most famous England football chant is 'two world wars and one world cup', directed of course at the Germans who remain the target of a ridiculous number of Sun headlines.

and every second phrase from Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear was sledging the Germans whilst he is getting paid circa ~3million GBP on the beeb's purse.

risible.

but, it did become funny when it trascended to self parody, and his face is longer and more equine than any Dutchman.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
sniper said:
thehog said:
...
Exactly. UKAD did nothing.

Hence why there is now a government inquiry into their conduct.
Lord Moynihan is now officially at the forefront of the fight against doping in the UK.
If he keeps up the fight, he'll discover how lonely it is up there.


Yes, with all that 'independence' the UCI/WADA/UKAD having been going on about they still managed to bury an organised doping ring good and proper.

Brits for the win!

You say 'Brits for the win', but at the same time state that the Brit government is holding an inquiry into why Brit UKAD ignored evidence and did nothing. I've just posted about why the Brit Olympic Comittee fought for total exclusion of Brit dopers from the Brit Olympics.

Is your agenda quite as transparent as it appears? :D :D
 

thehog

BANNED
Jul 27, 2009
31,285
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Re: Re:

kwikki said:
thehog said:
sniper said:
thehog said:
...
Exactly. UKAD did nothing.

Hence why there is now a government inquiry into their conduct.
Lord Moynihan is now officially at the forefront of the fight against doping in the UK.
If he keeps up the fight, he'll discover how lonely it is up there.


Yes, with all that 'independence' the UCI/WADA/UKAD having been going on about they still managed to bury an organised doping ring good and proper.

Brits for the win!

You say 'Brits for the win', but at the same time state that the Brit government is holding an inquiry into why Brit UKAD ignored evidence and did nothing. I've just posted about why the Brit Olympic Comittee fought for total exclusion of Brit dopers from the Brit Olympics.

Is your agenda quite as transparent as it appears? :D :D

Exactly. I posted up thread about the inquiry due to UKAD doing nothing.
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

kwikki said:
sniper said:
thehog said:
...
Exactly. UKAD did nothing.

Hence why there is now a government inquiry into their conduct.
Lord Moynihan is now officially at the forefront of the fight against doping in the UK.
If he keeps up the fight, he'll discover how lonely it is up there.

Eh?

Did you miss the entire saga in 2012, when the British Olympic Comittee wanted to maintain its ban on British athletes competing in the UK olympics if they had served more than a 6 month ban for doping? They were opposed by WADA and taken to CAS.

Let me repeat....it was the British Olympic Committee, taking a tougher stance than WADA would allow. This was right in the run up to the London Olympics. It was all over the news, and there was very little opposition to the BOA stance from anybody within the UK.

The situation is not as simplistic as you seem to want to present. Moynihan has held and voiced the same position on bans and criminalisation for years. The opposition to it comes from WADA.

Yeah and? Paula Radcliffe held signs up saying "epo cheaters out", but she is anything but transparent about her own blood values!

Armstrong bought a blood testing machine for UCI.........means nothing.

UK athletes probably thought it might bring unwanted heat and scrutiny on them and their 'achievements'.

The days of athletes calling themselves clean is not enough.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Cannibal72 said:
The U.K. is, for the most part, profoundly mistrustful of displays of patriotism. Just like the Anglo-Australian rivalry, there's a hefty element of class involved; a senior politician was sacked last year for tweeting a picture of a house with two England flags and a white van, captioned 'welcome to Rochester'. To an American, this presumably seems banal and harmless; a mark of national identity next to a utility vehicle! But in England, that image was freighted with socioeconomic symbolism and importance. The white van and St George's cross are key parts of the iconography of a certain segment of English (word used deliberately) society; white, male, working-class, boorish, misogynistic, stereotypically from Essex, obsessed by football, reader of the Sun. Indeed Kelvin Mackenzie, editor of the Sun in the 1980s and one of the few people I've never met but nonetheless despise, once delivered a very revealing quote: his paper was pitched to 'the bloke you see in the pub, a right old fascist, wants to send the wogs back, buy his poxy council house, he's afraid of the unions, afraid of the Russians, hates the queers and the weirdos and drug dealers'. Another key element of this culture's iconography is the Second World War; it's not for nothing that arguably the most famous England football chant is 'two world wars and one world cup', directed of course at the Germans who remain the target of a ridiculous number of Sun headlines. Mackenzie's phrase 'right old fascist' is interesting; part of the symbolic connotations of the St George's Cross have changed since the 1970s, because it was hijacked by the neo-fascist movement the National Front, who had an astonishing amount of cultural relevance and incited a hell of a lot of violence. It would be stupid to describe UKIP as fascist, but it's worth noting that the photo I mentioned earlier came from the constituency Nigel Farage was trying to win (and only narrowly lost). Since the 1980s, British society has became a lot more polarised. From 1945 to 1979 the UK was built on a corporatist, consensual social settlement that gave a remarkable amount of power to trade unions and to the central government. Margaret Thatcher almost single-handedly ended that, and in the process she destroyed many, many working communities in the North of England that had a strong sense of civic pride. The people who were proud of the U.K. (in the Hugh Grant in Love Actually way) diminished with that quasi-Scandinavian social settlement: the NHS is the closest thing the UK has to a state religion, and with successive Conservative governments dismembering it, what's their left to be proud of? Everyone who doesn't identify with the 'white van man' culture is reluctant to be US-style patriotic (perhaps because the US is an idea before it is a country, whereas the British are, as JS Mill said, a people distrustful of grand ideas). I see two more significant reasons for Britain's distrust for patriotism. Firstly, the U.K. has quite simply not come to terms with the loss of its empire; I still hold that our culture's wilful blindness as to the crimes we committed is a large reason for our present lack of cohesion, as we continue to fool ourselves into thinking we're globally relevant. We are beginning a long process of decay: some deal with that by hiding from it, others by denying it- neither attitude conducive to national pride Secondly, and interlinked, the UK experienced a surge of immigration from its former colonies in the 1950s, immigrants who were never fully integrated. The rhetoric against them became so bitter that simply to be patriotic seemed a moderately racist. (Given the theoretical sporting angle to this whole thing, it's intriguing to note that Lord Tebbit, one of Thatcher's Cabinet, proposed as a key determiner of your identity whether you cheered for England or India in cricket). The period 2003-2012 was an especially bad period for patriotism in the UK; internationally, we were America's lapdog, following them eagerly into an illegal war and facilitating breaches of international law; domestically, when the recession hit, the last vestiges of manufacturing disappeared (and are disappearing).

In this context, London 2012 was unbelievable. Everyone expected it to fail dismally; the logo sucked, the mascots were shite, we were competing with China, and our sportsmen were consistently failures. But it wasn't. The national mood was astonishing from the opening ceremony on; Super Saturday was, incredibly, a day when our polarised, marginalised, alienated society finally came together as one. I attended the Paralympic swimming; it was - and I'm no patriot- an extraordinary day. (Interestingly, the private security firm epically failed to actually provide security, so the army stepped in a week before the Games began, and proceeded to act with a somewhat surprising professionalism and good humour; the army providing security...how much more uniting can you get? Don't worry though; the mood of unity and optimism evaporated by the start of 2013, and as the bad-mannered and bad-tempered fight over the future of the Stadium itself shows you, no hint of it remained in our national culture, as far as I can tell. Equally, it was a powerful force at the time (mostly for the worse). Danny Boyle's opening ceremony presented an inclusive vision of what Britain could be and what its significance is (David Bowie, mostly). But the reality is more like Trainspotting...

Edit: lots of stuff raised since I posted. I can't agree with Buckle (although it is worth noting that London got the Olympic nod ahead of heavy favourite Paris); Robert raised some very interesting points, and the Brecht quote sure fits.
yo Cannibal72, since I am such a bourgeois pig, I went to a play at MelbourneTheatreCompany, and like The Delgados*, I am a bit of an incorrigible alcoholic*, so I had to see it again a second time as I was ambiguously drunk first go round

Deborah Bruce is the playwrite, and I did not know of her before, I only know some big names like SimonStephens and DavidHare and SarahKane from modern canon, she is currently in residence at National Theatre.

http://www.mtc.com.au/plays-and-tickets/season-2016/the-distance/?gclid=CNr53YLa98sCFQomvQod0M4LFw
the play is set on the backdrop of the 2011 riots. I think Zizek says something felicitous in his commentary critique on Children Of Men
Zizek on the amorphousness background placing foreground into relief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqlqVcCPRd0
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/11/london-rioters-2011-anger-inequality-distrust-police
see: Bruce' The Distance and London riots the externalisation of the inner torment

Deborah Bruce
http://unitedagents.co.uk/deborah-bruce

*do i really need to add the qualification that this is facetious, s'pose I need to add it for irondan's sake
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
kwikki said:
sniper said:
thehog said:
...
Exactly. UKAD did nothing.

Hence why there is now a government inquiry into their conduct.
Lord Moynihan is now officially at the forefront of the fight against doping in the UK.
If he keeps up the fight, he'll discover how lonely it is up there.

Eh?

Did you miss the entire saga in 2012, when the British Olympic Comittee wanted to maintain its ban on British athletes competing in the UK olympics if they had served more than a 6 month ban for doping? They were opposed by WADA and taken to CAS.

Let me repeat....it was the British Olympic Committee, taking a tougher stance than WADA would allow. This was right in the run up to the London Olympics. It was all over the news, and there was very little opposition to the BOA stance from anybody within the UK.

The situation is not as simplistic as you seem to want to present. Moynihan has held and voiced the same position on bans and criminalisation for years. The opposition to it comes from WADA.

Yeah and? Paula Radcliffe held signs up saying "epo cheaters out", but she is anything but transparent about her own blood values!

Armstrong bought a blood testing machine for UCI.........means nothing.

UK athletes probably thought it might bring unwanted heat and scrutiny on them and their 'achievements'.

The days of athletes calling themselves clean is not enough.


Yeah, and ?


The 'and' is that it isn't black and white. There is a clear desire for strong anti-doping procedures within the UK, which you will see if you look for it (BOC, Moynihan, certain athletes, possibly elements within government etc). Equally, there are also others who either do not want it (doping UK athletes, certain governing sports bodies) or are either too-compromised or underfunded to do anything about it (UKAD, if I'm being generous), as well as those who'd really rather not look too closely.

It's nothing to do with what athletes say about themselves, it's about the determination to actually tackle a problem and fund it accordingly.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Re: Re:

kwikki said:
Benotti69 said:
kwikki said:
sniper said:
thehog said:
...
Exactly. UKAD did nothing.

Hence why there is now a government inquiry into their conduct.
Lord Moynihan is now officially at the forefront of the fight against doping in the UK.
If he keeps up the fight, he'll discover how lonely it is up there.

Eh?

Did you miss the entire saga in 2012, when the British Olympic Comittee wanted to maintain its ban on British athletes competing in the UK olympics if they had served more than a 6 month ban for doping? They were opposed by WADA and taken to CAS.

Let me repeat....it was the British Olympic Committee, taking a tougher stance than WADA would allow. This was right in the run up to the London Olympics. It was all over the news, and there was very little opposition to the BOA stance from anybody within the UK.

The situation is not as simplistic as you seem to want to present. Moynihan has held and voiced the same position on bans and criminalisation for years. The opposition to it comes from WADA.

Yeah and? Paula Radcliffe held signs up saying "epo cheaters out", but she is anything but transparent about her own blood values!

Armstrong bought a blood testing machine for UCI.........means nothing.

UK athletes probably thought it might bring unwanted heat and scrutiny on them and their 'achievements'.

The days of athletes calling themselves clean is not enough.


Yeah, and ?


The 'and' is that it isn't black and white. There is a clear desire for strong anti-doping procedures within the UK, which you will see if you look for it (BOC, Moynihan, certain athletes, possibly elements within government etc). Equally, there are also others who either do not want it (doping UK athletes, certain governing sports bodies) or are either too-compromised or underfunded to do anything about it (UKAD, if I'm being generous), as well as those who'd really rather not look too closely.

It's nothing to do with what athletes say about themselves, it's about the determination to actually tackle a problem and fund it accordingly.

you might know the quote "because they fall asleep in the getaway car Karen"

There are still a surprising number of casual sports fans who still think that testing is how you catch dopers....not you btw...just people I speak to...

They have not yet caught up with the model whereby, like the goodfellas, they have it 'sorted' with the authorities and, like the hapless henry,...it would only be by a bizarre set of circumstances that you would get caught (enter stage left Floyd)

of course they shout for more testing...they shout for it all, because they know that it doesn't apply to them...

more testing on Tenerife anyone???
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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Catwhoorg said:
http://www.ukad.org.uk/news/article/andy-ward-appointed-to-conduct-independent-review

"A recently retired Assistant Chief Constable from Merseyside, Andy Ward, has been appointed by the UK Anti-Doping (UKAD) Board to lead the independent review into UKAD’s handling of intelligence in relation to Dr Mark Bonar."

I was worried for a moment but the word 'independent' is there, so all is well.

"We like our independence, we like it a lot", yours faithfully, WADA/UCI/UKAD :cool:
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
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Re: Re:

kwikki said:
Benotti69 said:
kwikki said:
sniper said:
thehog said:
...
Exactly. UKAD did nothing.

Hence why there is now a government inquiry into their conduct.
Lord Moynihan is now officially at the forefront of the fight against doping in the UK.
If he keeps up the fight, he'll discover how lonely it is up there.

Eh?

Did you miss the entire saga in 2012, when the British Olympic Comittee wanted to maintain its ban on British athletes competing in the UK olympics if they had served more than a 6 month ban for doping? They were opposed by WADA and taken to CAS.

Let me repeat....it was the British Olympic Committee, taking a tougher stance than WADA would allow. This was right in the run up to the London Olympics. It was all over the news, and there was very little opposition to the BOA stance from anybody within the UK.

The situation is not as simplistic as you seem to want to present. Moynihan has held and voiced the same position on bans and criminalisation for years. The opposition to it comes from WADA.

Yeah and? Paula Radcliffe held signs up saying "epo cheaters out", but she is anything but transparent about her own blood values!

Armstrong bought a blood testing machine for UCI.........means nothing.

UK athletes probably thought it might bring unwanted heat and scrutiny on them and their 'achievements'.

The days of athletes calling themselves clean is not enough.


Yeah, and ?


The 'and' is that it isn't black and white. There is a clear desire for strong anti-doping procedures within the UK, which you will see if you look for it (BOC, Moynihan, certain athletes, possibly elements within government etc). Equally, there are also others who either do not want it (doping UK athletes, certain governing sports bodies) or are either too-compromised or underfunded to do anything about it (UKAD, if I'm being generous), as well as those who'd really rather not look too closely.

It's nothing to do with what athletes say about themselves, it's about the determination to actually tackle a problem and fund it accordingly.


UKAD are part of the problem as is WADA.

There is little transparency, too much old boys network and yes anti doping is woefully underfunded and not independent.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Agreed. Moynihan is right, if anything is to be done then there needs to be a provision within criminal law as it isn't sufficient to leave the fight to those who have a vested interest in not fighting.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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It might be irrelevant.

If Boner is struck off by the GMC next Monday he'll be out of a job. If he actually has anything to tell he may well do so for money. The ST has a big fat chequebook.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

Baldinger said:
Journalists don't pay their sources for information like that.

The Sunday Times sister paper, the News of the World, was famous for it.
 
Feb 6, 2016
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blackcat said:
Cameron and Clegg

yeah, i know lib dems turfed, and Bojo was never given the armchair ride...

but, in Australia on a football, australian rules football forum, we had nicknamed the Oxbridge two, 'the smoothskinned boys".

some serious antipodean wildean drollery right there.

what college were they out of at Oxford anyhow? anyone?

Cameron was at Brasenose Oxford, Clegg was at Robinson Cambridge (Osborne was at Magdalen Oxford; I know someone who was there with him, and apparently he was already a smarmy ****.)
 
Jul 9, 2014
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Re: Re:

kwikki said:
Baldinger said:
Journalists don't pay their sources for information like that.

The Sunday Times sister paper, the News of the World, was famous for it.
Yeah, they did a lot of chequebook journalism and phone hacking too. A guy like Bonar would probably say anything for money.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

Baldinger said:
kwikki said:
Baldinger said:
Journalists don't pay their sources for information like that.

The Sunday Times sister paper, the News of the World, was famous for it.
Yeah, they did a lot of chequebook journalism and phone hacking too. A guy like Bonar would probably say anything for money.

You are not wrong. I find the cancer patient stuff more shocking than the doping stuff, frankly.
 

thehog

BANNED
Jul 27, 2009
31,285
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Re:

blackcat said:
Cameron and Clegg

yeah, i know lib dems turfed, and Bojo was never given the armchair ride...

but, in Australia on a football, australian rules football forum, we had nicknamed the Oxbridge two, 'the smoothskinned boys".

some serious antipodean wildean drollery right there.

what college were they out of at Oxford anyhow? anyone?


Bojo, is actually American, might explain why is he slightly more normal :rolleyes: