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Re:
As much as it pains me to agree with a Hibee, I agree. Mrs F, who is a bit naive in these things and a bit of a flag waver, asked me who I thought was clean then in the GB & NI squad. It really took me 30 seconds to reply. I could only come up with Muir and Sharpe.
London Hibs said:
As much as it pains me to agree with a Hibee, I agree. Mrs F, who is a bit naive in these things and a bit of a flag waver, asked me who I thought was clean then in the GB & NI squad. It really took me 30 seconds to reply. I could only come up with Muir and Sharpe.
I feel bad for Caster Semenya. She is a genetic freak, but she's a woman. The IAAF hate that she has more testosterone than everyone else, but surely the same logic should apply to marathon runners who have a higher haemocrit or stupidly high haemoglobin levels (assuming they are natural which I know they aren't). Sure it's unfair on the others that she is like this - but it's also unfair on Phelps' competitors that his body is made for swimming, and many others who don't have the same genetic advantage. Genetic advantages are part of the game; sorry, they are the game. Semenya is in my mind at least, one of the more likely athletes to be clean because of her hyperandrogenism.
Re:
I am torn when it comes to the likes of Semenya. Her condition is less unique than it seems. Intersex atletes who are women have a huge advantage. If they'd all be lauded and scouted as much as, say, the Chinese or Russians in general, there could be a whole lot more of them taking sports as their monopoly. They won't all be stronger than finalist women, as there are also not a whole lot of men who run 1.54 over 800m. For a man it takes talent and dedication in most every case to come that far. On zero sport and random nutricion, you just don't do it.
If intersex athletes have an edge worth 3 seconds (it's probably much more), how many of them are needed to give sports a go to be sure to dominate?
Perhaps Semenya is hugely talented, just not as a runner. Had she taken up cycling, tennis or XC skiing, perhaps she'd be more unbeatable than Vos, Williams and Bjoergen? I doubt we are seeing the full extent of intersex performance ceilings. Remember that the WR is a good bit quicker still.
Since we have paralympics for hearingg impared runners who can understand you almost perfectly with an ear piece, and mentally challenged ones who are well able to keep a conversation going, why not intersex as a step down from men, rather than a step up from women? It's brutal against the likes of Semenya who were born and raised a girl, but narrowing down the categories of participants a bitt would be fair to millions and just harsh on a few unlucky ones who'd probably not be able to compete without their condition.
What to do with Phelps? Well, his condition is diagnosed. Why not keep his fellow sufferers out of men's swimming?
We had the thing with blade runners. So-so runners lose their legs and start running faster that they'd realistically otherwise would. Semenya with adjusted testosterone levels wasn't quite as fast. So her talent may well be largely technical and mental, not as much physical, at least for track running. She might destroy the field in rowing or javelin.
Athletics at that level is too lucrative, apart from the fame, it will attract all intersex women to give them a better life. Most will grow up in unprivileged homes, compared to the likes of Vos, Sharapova and Bjoergen. See how East Africa turned distance running into a business of itself. There was money to be won. If only honor, would there be as many men under 2:05 for the marathon?
I largely agree, she's likely clean. And as far as I can tell, a magnificently talented runner, beyond the testosterone. Still, she barely runs faster than a skinny ginger/blonde from The Netherlands did in 1992 when it mattered most.Brullnux said:
I am torn when it comes to the likes of Semenya. Her condition is less unique than it seems. Intersex atletes who are women have a huge advantage. If they'd all be lauded and scouted as much as, say, the Chinese or Russians in general, there could be a whole lot more of them taking sports as their monopoly. They won't all be stronger than finalist women, as there are also not a whole lot of men who run 1.54 over 800m. For a man it takes talent and dedication in most every case to come that far. On zero sport and random nutricion, you just don't do it.
If intersex athletes have an edge worth 3 seconds (it's probably much more), how many of them are needed to give sports a go to be sure to dominate?
Perhaps Semenya is hugely talented, just not as a runner. Had she taken up cycling, tennis or XC skiing, perhaps she'd be more unbeatable than Vos, Williams and Bjoergen? I doubt we are seeing the full extent of intersex performance ceilings. Remember that the WR is a good bit quicker still.
Since we have paralympics for hearingg impared runners who can understand you almost perfectly with an ear piece, and mentally challenged ones who are well able to keep a conversation going, why not intersex as a step down from men, rather than a step up from women? It's brutal against the likes of Semenya who were born and raised a girl, but narrowing down the categories of participants a bitt would be fair to millions and just harsh on a few unlucky ones who'd probably not be able to compete without their condition.
What to do with Phelps? Well, his condition is diagnosed. Why not keep his fellow sufferers out of men's swimming?
We had the thing with blade runners. So-so runners lose their legs and start running faster that they'd realistically otherwise would. Semenya with adjusted testosterone levels wasn't quite as fast. So her talent may well be largely technical and mental, not as much physical, at least for track running. She might destroy the field in rowing or javelin.
Athletics at that level is too lucrative, apart from the fame, it will attract all intersex women to give them a better life. Most will grow up in unprivileged homes, compared to the likes of Vos, Sharapova and Bjoergen. See how East Africa turned distance running into a business of itself. There was money to be won. If only honor, would there be as many men under 2:05 for the marathon?
Re:
While I think it's fair for her to compete in the same category as other women, I don't think it's a clear-cut issue.
False equivalence. It's not about 'unfair' genetic advantage, but whether or not she should compete against other women. Man/woman is not a dichotomy, there will always be grey areas. This wouldn't be a problem if everyone competed against each other, but given that no men are allowed, it's a matter of where one should draw the line.Brullnux said:
While I think it's fair for her to compete in the same category as other women, I don't think it's a clear-cut issue.
I only follow from a (long) distance, so perhaps someone better informed could help out.
From this distance, athletics looks a lot like pro-cycling mid/late 90's. Just rife, uncontrolled, unhinged - and actually, quite interesting simply because it looks so far off the rails.
Does this sound about right to people who have decent knowledge?
From this distance, athletics looks a lot like pro-cycling mid/late 90's. Just rife, uncontrolled, unhinged - and actually, quite interesting simply because it looks so far off the rails.
Does this sound about right to people who have decent knowledge?
Singer01
BANNED
Semenya, 26, said she next plans to beat the 800m world record of one minute, 53.28 seconds, set by Jarmila Kratochvilova of the former Czechoslovakia in 1983.
"We need to clear 1:55 first and it will require a lot of hard training," she said.
That is a big jump, taking another 2 seconds will be hellish, though she clearly could have gone faster yesterday if she had paced it better. Probably the stupidest record (along with the 400m) so it will be interesting to see how she goes.
"We need to clear 1:55 first and it will require a lot of hard training," she said.
That is a big jump, taking another 2 seconds will be hellish, though she clearly could have gone faster yesterday if she had paced it better. Probably the stupidest record (along with the 400m) so it will be interesting to see how she goes.
I thought Semenya looked extremely masculine, but Kratochvilova is one muscular women that looks like a male. Here she is setting the WR which has stood now for 34 yrs:
https://youtu.be/lNpzsc8WWvE
Semenya currently tied at 16th fastest on the all-time list:
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_800ok.htm
https://youtu.be/lNpzsc8WWvE
Semenya currently tied at 16th fastest on the all-time list:
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_800ok.htm
Kratochvilova, never tested positiveNomad said:
Seriously though, that's remarkable. She was 32 at the time.
interesting stat.
Singer01
BANNED
sniper said:Kratochvilova, never tested positiveNomad said:
Seriously though, that's remarkable. She was 32 at the time.
interesting stat.
According to Wikipedia she never broke 53 seconds for the 400m until she was 27, she eventually ran sub 48. Makes Froomes transformation seem positively pedestrian.
Whatever happened to Jelimo, she is very prominent on the all time list.
Re: Re:
Just make everyone run in the same competition and do away entirely with the men/women separation. That way all get what they deserve.Netserk said:
Whatever happened to Jelimo, she is very prominent on the all time list@.[/quote]
"...Beijing 800m Olympic champion Pamela Jelimo have again been linked to doping by the German Broadcaster Hajo Seppelt ..."
"...Beijing 800m Olympic champion Pamela Jelimo have again been linked to doping by the German Broadcaster Hajo Seppelt ..."
Re:
Don't get this discussion. She clearly tripped. Just look at the footage. And afterwards she had no chance getting back into speed. Ever tried running with lactic acid up to your ears?sniper said:
She might have to do that in the future you mean.DanielSong39 said:
Re:
From Wikipedia:
2015 testosterone rule change
The IAAF policy on hyperandrogenism, or high natural levels of testosterone in women, was suspended following the case of Dutee Chand v. Athletics Federation of India (AFI) & The International Association of Athletics Federations, in the Court of Arbitration for Sport, decided in July 2015.[63] The ruling found that there was a lack of evidence provided that testosterone increased female athletic performance and notified the IAAF that it had two years to provide the evidence.[64]
"She" is not. Hasn't been for a couple years. Has been killing it again since.DanielSong39 said:
From Wikipedia:
2015 testosterone rule change
The IAAF policy on hyperandrogenism, or high natural levels of testosterone in women, was suspended following the case of Dutee Chand v. Athletics Federation of India (AFI) & The International Association of Athletics Federations, in the Court of Arbitration for Sport, decided in July 2015.[63] The ruling found that there was a lack of evidence provided that testosterone increased female athletic performance and notified the IAAF that it had two years to provide the evidence.[64]
Kratochvilova's facial features didn't change much long after you'd expect her to spot doping https://www.google.cz/imgres?imgurl...jT9LSRmtnVAhUFzxQKHZeUDmwQMwhvKD8wPw..i&w=600
Re: Re:
I wonder whether there's any point to talk to someone who agrees it "basically stop her from running", because this is total, total BS which makes it look as you two guys haven't even seen the race.
To me it looked like an obvious trip, as I've siad before. Matches with what athleres says.
What bunch of others? I don't think two makes bunch :razz:sniper said:
I wonder whether there's any point to talk to someone who agrees it "basically stop her from running", because this is total, total BS which makes it look as you two guys haven't even seen the race.
To me it looked like an obvious trip, as I've siad before. Matches with what athleres says.
Yeah, I liked that writers style. The entire article is filled with little goodies like that...The Hitch said:
Not sure if this article I read in the local paper today would be behind a paywall, I only get to read a certain number of articles before they start charging me. So I just copied and pasted the whole thing... the level of the authors' naiveté is just astonishing! (Not sure whether to laugh or cry, think I'd prefer to laugh.)
-----
By Eddie Pells and Pat Graham
The Associated Press
Aug. 15, 2017
LONDON — For years, athletes from the United States have quietly wondered how they might have fared if they had been competing on a level playing field. This year, they may have found out.
Final figures from the medals standings at the world championships that wrapped up Sunday offered evidence that track and field’s attempt to crack down on a global doping crisis could be making a direct impact on the results themselves.
Exhibit A: The United States won 30 medals, while athletes from four countries that have been under the doping microscope — Kenya (11), Russia (6), Ethiopia (5) and Jamaica (4) — combined for 26.
Two years ago, the results looked like this: United States 17, Kenya 16, Jamaica 12, Ethiopia 8, Russia 4.
Four years ago, with Russia competing on home turf and in the midst of what investigators have determined was a state-sponsored doping conspiracy, they looked like this: United States 26, Russia 14, Kenya 12, Jamaica and Ethiopia 10 each.
“Maybe the only good byproduct of the past corruption and scandal is that it forces sport to make sure it never happens again,” said Travis Tygart, the CEO of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. “Ultimately, that’s good for clean athletes.”
Among the changes that have taken place over the last two years:
The suspension of the Russian track federation. Only 19 Russians competed at this year’s worlds, 100 fewer than were present in Moscow in 2013. The 19 competed as neutral athletes because the IAAF determined they’ve been under proper anti-doping controls.
Five countries, including distance-running powerhouses Kenya and Ethiopia, have been placed on a doping watch list — meaning they are being closely watched because of evidence that has surfaced about less-than-robust anti-doping procedures in those countries. Jamaica has also been under increased scrutiny, which has led to the stripping of a 2008 Olympic relay medal because of doping by one of Usain Bolt’s teammates.
The IAAF has established an independent testing authority that takes responsibilities for conducting the anti-doping program out of its hands. A handful of former IAAF leaders are under investigation for their roles in doping cover-ups and related corruption.
“We have to be open about it,” IAAF president Sebastian Coe said. “There’s been a disproportionate amount of damage to the sport produced by a relatively small number of nations, and we just have to get on top of that.”
As a sign of the IAAF’s willingness to tackle the issue head-on, the meet began with the reallocation of medals from 11 races dating to 2007.
“It’s not a Russia thing, but it is a thing that sometimes you get out there and you wonder, ‘Do I have a fair shot at this? If I’m doing the right thing, is everyone else doing the right thing?’” said American sprinter Natasha Hastings, who received a reallocated relay gold from 2013.
It’s a refrain shared up and down the roster in the United States, where athletes are widely considered to be subject to one of the world’s toughest anti-doping programs.
“It’s not uncommon for athletes in our training group to get tested every month,” said U.S.-based track coach Loren Seagrave, who trains athletes from several countries. “On some occasions, you get tested on one day, and they show up again the next day. I think they’re as vigilant as they can be.”
Of course, it’s a delicate proposition to attribute all these numbers to doping, or to assume all the problems are fixed. From Marion Jones to Tim Montgomery to Tyson Gay, Americans have a history of doping positives, reflected most starkly during this meet by the fans’ reaction to Justin Gatlin. The 100-meter champion was roundly booed at every turn because of his doping history — he’s served two bans.
“I thought in 2012, I was in a cleaner race, and it turns out that Olympic final was probably one of the dirtiest in history,” said American middle-distance runner Shannon Rowbury, who finished out of the medals in a race in which no fewer than five of the 1,500-meter finalists have been investigated for doping violations.
Exhibit B (perhaps): Eleven of this year’s 14 winning sprint times, including relays and hurdles, were slower than in 2013, which was the last world championships held the year after the Olympics.
But a portion of that — as well as Jamaica’s paltry showing, with only four medals — could be attributed to Bolt’s rough week; he won bronze in the 100 meters and pulled up lame in the 4x100 with a hurt left hamstring.
The champion took umbrage to the linking of slow times and doping, calling it “disrespectful.”
“There’s something called injury and sometimes, everything doesn’t go as smoothly as you want,” Bolt said. “We came out and put on a good show for everyone.”
Nobody enjoyed the show more than the Americans, whose 30 medals were only two short of what they picked up last year at the Olympics in in Rio de Janeiro, when some of the reforms were starting to take hold and Russia only sent one track and field athlete.
“There was a lot of shuffling, some medalists were completely unexpected,” said American long jumper Tianna Bartoletta, who won a bronze medal. “Whatever the explanation, it’s promising. I’m encouraged by what I saw here this week.”
-----
By Eddie Pells and Pat Graham
The Associated Press
Aug. 15, 2017
LONDON — For years, athletes from the United States have quietly wondered how they might have fared if they had been competing on a level playing field. This year, they may have found out.
Final figures from the medals standings at the world championships that wrapped up Sunday offered evidence that track and field’s attempt to crack down on a global doping crisis could be making a direct impact on the results themselves.
Exhibit A: The United States won 30 medals, while athletes from four countries that have been under the doping microscope — Kenya (11), Russia (6), Ethiopia (5) and Jamaica (4) — combined for 26.
Two years ago, the results looked like this: United States 17, Kenya 16, Jamaica 12, Ethiopia 8, Russia 4.
Four years ago, with Russia competing on home turf and in the midst of what investigators have determined was a state-sponsored doping conspiracy, they looked like this: United States 26, Russia 14, Kenya 12, Jamaica and Ethiopia 10 each.
“Maybe the only good byproduct of the past corruption and scandal is that it forces sport to make sure it never happens again,” said Travis Tygart, the CEO of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. “Ultimately, that’s good for clean athletes.”
Among the changes that have taken place over the last two years:
The suspension of the Russian track federation. Only 19 Russians competed at this year’s worlds, 100 fewer than were present in Moscow in 2013. The 19 competed as neutral athletes because the IAAF determined they’ve been under proper anti-doping controls.
Five countries, including distance-running powerhouses Kenya and Ethiopia, have been placed on a doping watch list — meaning they are being closely watched because of evidence that has surfaced about less-than-robust anti-doping procedures in those countries. Jamaica has also been under increased scrutiny, which has led to the stripping of a 2008 Olympic relay medal because of doping by one of Usain Bolt’s teammates.
The IAAF has established an independent testing authority that takes responsibilities for conducting the anti-doping program out of its hands. A handful of former IAAF leaders are under investigation for their roles in doping cover-ups and related corruption.
“We have to be open about it,” IAAF president Sebastian Coe said. “There’s been a disproportionate amount of damage to the sport produced by a relatively small number of nations, and we just have to get on top of that.”
As a sign of the IAAF’s willingness to tackle the issue head-on, the meet began with the reallocation of medals from 11 races dating to 2007.
“It’s not a Russia thing, but it is a thing that sometimes you get out there and you wonder, ‘Do I have a fair shot at this? If I’m doing the right thing, is everyone else doing the right thing?’” said American sprinter Natasha Hastings, who received a reallocated relay gold from 2013.
It’s a refrain shared up and down the roster in the United States, where athletes are widely considered to be subject to one of the world’s toughest anti-doping programs.
“It’s not uncommon for athletes in our training group to get tested every month,” said U.S.-based track coach Loren Seagrave, who trains athletes from several countries. “On some occasions, you get tested on one day, and they show up again the next day. I think they’re as vigilant as they can be.”
Of course, it’s a delicate proposition to attribute all these numbers to doping, or to assume all the problems are fixed. From Marion Jones to Tim Montgomery to Tyson Gay, Americans have a history of doping positives, reflected most starkly during this meet by the fans’ reaction to Justin Gatlin. The 100-meter champion was roundly booed at every turn because of his doping history — he’s served two bans.
“I thought in 2012, I was in a cleaner race, and it turns out that Olympic final was probably one of the dirtiest in history,” said American middle-distance runner Shannon Rowbury, who finished out of the medals in a race in which no fewer than five of the 1,500-meter finalists have been investigated for doping violations.
Exhibit B (perhaps): Eleven of this year’s 14 winning sprint times, including relays and hurdles, were slower than in 2013, which was the last world championships held the year after the Olympics.
But a portion of that — as well as Jamaica’s paltry showing, with only four medals — could be attributed to Bolt’s rough week; he won bronze in the 100 meters and pulled up lame in the 4x100 with a hurt left hamstring.
The champion took umbrage to the linking of slow times and doping, calling it “disrespectful.”
“There’s something called injury and sometimes, everything doesn’t go as smoothly as you want,” Bolt said. “We came out and put on a good show for everyone.”
Nobody enjoyed the show more than the Americans, whose 30 medals were only two short of what they picked up last year at the Olympics in in Rio de Janeiro, when some of the reforms were starting to take hold and Russia only sent one track and field athlete.
“There was a lot of shuffling, some medalists were completely unexpected,” said American long jumper Tianna Bartoletta, who won a bronze medal. “Whatever the explanation, it’s promising. I’m encouraged by what I saw here this week.”
Germany had another relatively poor athletics championship. The Russians with less than 20 athletes won more than the Germans (71 athletes).
thehog
BANNED
BullsFan22 said:
Perhaps Germany need the British (Australian) model of lottery and government funding?
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