Doping in Soccer/Football

[tantocomo]

Re:

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/zlatan-ibrahimovic-suing-swedish-doctor-ulf-karlsson-doping-comments-expressen/

We had plenty of doping controls at Juventus. Zlatan was tested between fifteen and twenty times. He was tested all the time. Juventus were put under the microscope.

Brilliant stuff!

 

[Tienus]

There is now a better english article about it:
http://www.sport-english.com/en/news/ligue-1/sportbladet-doctor-accuses-ibrahimovic-doping-juventus-days-5034868

 

[BullsFan22]

We'll see how far this goes. Ibrahimovic is just below Messi and Ronaldo as far as popularity and I suppose skill, so this would be a big deal if something more came out of it. The Swedes rave about him. I think most would, if he were on their team, but he's developed sort a cult status and even if his team is losing 5-0, a goal by him would be something that would be talked about rather than a 5-1 thrashing. People could really come crashing on him if this turns out to be a big find, but they could also just say, 'so what, it happened/happens everywhere, leave I'm alone.' That's how big he is in world football.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/zlatan-ibrahimovic-suing-swedish-doctor-ulf-karlsson-doping-comments-expressen/

We had plenty of doping controls at Juventus. Zlatan was tested between fifteen and twenty times. He was tested all the time. Juventus were put under the microscope.

Brilliant stuff!

jaap stam or jap staam and edgar davids

#controls

 

[gooner]

Never take any notice of what Mino Raiola has to say.

He's an idiot.

 

[ciucci]

I have seen now a couple of articles on the website of la gazzetta dello sport about Messi visiting a doctor in Italy. Now again they mention an article from the Messagero Veneto http://messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/pordenone/cronaca/2016/04/07/news/messi-torna-a-sacile-dal-guru-poser-e-c-e-anche-chiellini-1.13256887?ref=hfmvudec-2

They describe this doctor as being a sports doctor, "guru" and nutritional and applied kinesiology expert. For me these are a lot of red flags.

Why is this so normal for them without anyone having doubts, while if it were a cyclist such articles would be immediately suspicious?

 

[gooner]

Excellent piece by Tommy Martin. Bang on the money.

http://www.the42.ie/tommy-martin-column-on-doping-in-football-2704619-Apr2016/?utm_source=twitter_self

 

[Tienus]

The Swedish doctor making these statements about Ibrahimovic is not a nobody.

A couple of years ago there where also accusations from an Italian doctor with regards to blood doping during the championsleage final in 96.
Short english clip from documentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFTuaVbHfLY
The doctor is Giuseppe d'onofrio. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Giuseppe_Donofrio3

Full documentary in Dutch:
http://ajax.blog.nl/ajax-nieuws/2013/05/27/het-dopingschandaal-rond-ajax-juventus-de-documentaire
It is

 

[tantocomo]

Excellent piece by Tommy Martin. Bang on the money.

http://www.the42.ie/tommy-martin-column-on-doping-in-football-2704619-Apr2016/?utm_source=twitter_self

Seconded.
There's also the problem that football is so much more bound up in culture and society than other sports, and not just because of the size and popularity of it. It's the tribal mentality combined with a win at all costs attitude which allows us to look the other way when our players/team commit indiscretions. Which might also be the reason for the promotion of Team GB and Team Sky in the 'dirty' sports they refer to in the article.

 

[BullsFan22]

Gee, and I though England's failures in the past 50 years was due to pressure from the fans and media, unrelenting and unfair expectations, questionable tactics and sometimes questionable lineups, bad preparation, bad luck, horrible penalty record. Now I know better. It's because those other football powers like Italy, Germany, Argentina, Brazil, France dope to win, while Johnny English, clean as ever, trails in their wake!!

 

[Albatros]

It would be more interesting trying to find the players who do not dope.

I support Barcelona and I know they are doping. Yet this season performance is nowhere near as good as last season.

It is not only visually but backed by facts: Barcelona are covering 107 kms per game whereas last season it was 113. And it is the same team just one year older and a few extra efforts having had to play all competitions.
I have seen several drops in performance in other teams to later come back in the third year to their best.
But it is not all about running. Most of the hardest running teams do not even pass the first stage the exception being Atletico Madrid and German teams in general. Atletico Madrid since Simeone took over are flying...literally. From a team that covered about 108 kms per game to one that is doing 115 and that managed to cover 158 kms against PSV after extra time, 122 during the 90 minutes of play

Some data to digest:
http://www.uefa.org/mediaservices/presskits/

Click on the TS pdf report and you can see the distance covered in every game. If you go to match centre you can see distance covered by every player.

By the way, the only thing outstanding in Messi physical performance is his acceleration.
He is the player who runs by far less of all the player in the UCL, season by season, a meagre 8 kms if so. And there are many faster players than him, or that make more sprints per game.

Cristiano Ronaldo physical output for instance is far superior.
So considering that both are doping with probably the best doping available these days you have to take into account genetics too.

 

[The Hitch]

Freakish thing with messi is though, it's basically been 3 years since he's had a rest. He plays every game for Barcelona, all 90 minutes, doesn't rest even if the game is already won (like against Arsenal in the champions league this year or Bayern last year), and in both 2014 and 2015 he took Argentina all the way to the final in an international competition.

 

[gooner]

I agree about playing every game.

Messi spits the dummy out if he is ever substituted or rested from a game. It happened under Pep and he became moody over it. Then Pep decided there and then to keep playing him in as many games for 90 mins. Look what happened to Enrique after the Sociedad game when Messi didn't play after coming back from the Christmas break. Overall all Barca managers generally adhere to it since. There was one game early last season when Enrique had to ask Messi would he come off and Messi said no. Enrique changed to a different substitution later.

Pep advised Sabella the Argentinian manager to do the same, play him every game and not to substitute him if he can.

They do it to keep him on side to get the best out of him.

Ever since the first couple of seasons under Rijkaard, his injury record is excellent since then. You see other clubs when the medical staff recommend to managers to rotate certain players to avoid injury due to the workload and the amount of games they play. He missed a small spell earlier on the season but since Pep took over, it's generally been very good.

Ferguson has pointed it out before with the Barca team as whole and the lack of rotation all round.

I'm intrigued how they don't pick up a lot more injuries.

 

[sniper]

But Messi is no stranger to adversity. Born with an outstanding, audacious talent, nature, almost as if re-dressing the balance, denied him the growth hormone that would permit him to grow the same as most other children.

Messi said: “When I was 11 years old they discovered that I had a growth hormone deficiency and I had to start a treatment to help me to grow. Every night I had to stick a needle into my legs, night after night after night, every day of the week, and this over a period of three years.”

“I was so small, they said that when I went onto the pitch, or when I went to school, I was always the smallest of all. It was like this until I finished the treatment and I then started to grow properly”.

The treatment was effective, but expensive, about $1,500 a month, far in excess of what the Messi family could afford. Social benefits went some way to covering the cost of the treatment but only for two years.

....

Former team-mate Gerardo Grighini recalls: “He would administer the injections as if it was perfectly normal. What’s taken him to the level he’s now reached is his talent and his self belief. Leo knew that he had to do that to become a professional player.

“Week after week after week, every day. Before going to sleep. Seven days in one leg, seven days in the other. And he did it quite naturally, just like that.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/players/lionel-messi/10487181/Lionel-Messis-improbable-progression-from-struggling-youngster-to-world-super-star.html

I mean...
never mind.

tinfoil hat: maybe he was never injured at all, but merely sat out some silent bans.

 

[tantocomo]

I'm intrigued how they don't pick up a lot more injuries

Also as a general rule the better you are the more the opposition will kick you.

I've often wondered if the lack of rotation at Barca, and Madrid to some extent, is commercial. If they want to sell the brand around the world they need the biggest stars playing every game. Something which doesn't happen so much in the Premier League as the league is the star.

Doping for endurance is one thing but in a contact sport you need to be lucky to avoid injuries.

 

[The Hitch]

I agree about playing every game.

Messi spits the dummy out if he is ever substituted or rested from a game. It happened under Pep and he became moody over it. Then Pep decided there and then to keep playing him in as many games for 90 mins. Look what happened to Enrique after the Sociedad game when Messi didn't play after coming back from the Christmas break. Overall all Barca managers generally adhere to it since. There was one game early last season when Enrique had to ask Messi would he come off and Messi said no. Enrique changed to a different substitution later.

Pep advised Sabella the Argentinian manager to do the same, play him every game and not to substitute him if he can.

They do it to keep him on side to get the best out of him.

Ever since the first couple of seasons under Rijkaard, his injury record is excellent since then. You see other clubs when the medical staff recommend to managers to rotate certain players to avoid injury due to the workload and the amount of games they play. He missed a small spell earlier on the season but since Pep took over, it's generally been very good.

Ferguson has pointed it out before with the Barca team as whole and the lack of rotation all round.

I'm intrigued how they don't pick up a lot more injuries.

Good post and interesting on the injury subject.

There's got to be some darker secret to Barca. Obviously we know they are dodgy thanks to Puerto and because they hired Guardiola, but so are other teams.

The way they keep so many things in house though, so many players graduating from the academy to become stars - the 2010 Ballon D'or podium was 3 Barca academy players, the fact that Messi was getting injections from an early age, the fact that Barcelona hire their managers internally too, there is some programme there I feel.

 

[sniper]

the fact that Messi was getting injections from an early age

Even better, he was injecting himself.
The Telegraph article i posted above is worth a read. It's one eyebrowraiser after the other.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/players/lionel-messi/10487181/Lionel-Messis-improbable-progression-from-struggling-youngster-to-world-super-star.html

 

[Cannibal72]

I'm intrigued how they don't pick up a lot more injuries

Also as a general rule the better you are the more the opposition will kick you.

I've often wondered if the lack of rotation at Barca, and Madrid to some extent, is commercial. If they want to sell the brand around the world they need the biggest stars playing every game. Something which doesn't happen so much in the Premier League as the league is the star.

Doping for endurance is one thing but in a contact sport you need to be lucky to avoid injuries.

We saw a player selection driven by commercial pressure in Barca 4 - Real 0, when Benitez played Perez's favourites (including players who weren't yet recovered from injury, like (I think) Modric) instead of in-form players like Casemiro - ironically causing the result that precipitated his removal.

 

[blackcat]

It would be more interesting trying to find the players who do not dope.

I support Barcelona and I know they are doping. Yet this season performance is nowhere near as good as last season.

It is not only visually but backed by facts: Barcelona are covering 107 kms per game whereas last season it was 113. And it is the same team just one year older and a few extra efforts having had to play all competitions.
I have seen several drops in performance in other teams to later come back in the third year to their best.
But it is not all about running. Most of the hardest running teams do not even pass the first stage the exception being Atletico Madrid and German teams in general. Atletico Madrid since Simeone took over are flying...literally. From a team that covered about 108 kms per game to one that is doing 115 and that managed to cover 158 kms against PSV after extra time, 122 during the 90 minutes of play

you cant isolate a simgle team and offer statistics. There is no control sample.

It is the triangulation of one team, in a competition, versus other teams. You need to be experienced (which I am DEFINITELY NOT), both of the sport, and inside the sport, and inside the team clubrooms where the secrets are maintained, and then do a game-theory(economics thought), a game-theory analysis, on how the team is playing with the competition of the other individual opposing teams... what have the opposition changed also?

It may be just a red-queen effect, where opposition have raised their game and their doping programs to the Messi level. A rising tide. So their complete superiority has been neutralised to a degree, and they now no longer have the ball in their possession as much (which may indicate, they would do MORE running, NOT LESS, as I already offered the caveat, I cannot breakdown a sport which i am pretty ignorant about)...

 

[blackcat]

I'm intrigued how they don't pick up a lot more injuries

Also as a general rule the better you are the more the opposition will kick you.

I've often wondered if the lack of rotation at Barca, and Madrid to some extent, is commercial. If they want to sell the brand around the world they need the biggest stars playing every game. Something which doesn't happen so much in the Premier League as the league is the star.

Doping for endurance is one thing but in a contact sport you need to be lucky to avoid injuries.

We saw a player selection driven by commercial pressure in Barca 4 - Real 0, when Benitez played Perez's favourites (including players who weren't yet recovered from injury, like (I think) Modric) instead of in-form players like Casemiro - ironically causing the result that precipitated his removal.

which is paradoxically why, the big market teams who did leverage Stadia deal like Yankees, and other teams in big markets like LA and Miami and Chitown, could out-bid opposition of the franchise players... But as seen with Michael Lewis tome, Moneyball on the Oakland As, there are other strategies to get around not being able to afford ten Alex Rodriguez plural.

Also think, if you invest in the best young coach who will not follow the consensus opinion, and create a new method in the sport, not a new method for new methods sake, but something that can see the openings and niche and opportunities.

this was not Oakland As, they were simply Harvard MBA back office folk with a business analyst's metrics and convinced the manager how to get on base.

A champion team, will always beat a team of champions. And when you throw a mediocre team into the mix, with a champion coach, they can take down a champion team.

 

[Albatros]

I'm intrigued how they don't pick up a lot more injuries

Also as a general rule the better you are the more the opposition will kick you.

I've often wondered if the lack of rotation at Barca, and Madrid to some extent, is commercial. If they want to sell the brand around the world they need the biggest stars playing every game. Something which doesn't happen so much in the Premier League as the league is the star.

Doping for endurance is one thing but in a contact sport you need to be lucky to avoid injuries.

We saw a player selection driven by commercial pressure in Barca 4 - Real 0, when Benitez played Perez's favourites (including players who weren't yet recovered from injury, like (I think) Modric) instead of in-form players like Casemiro - ironically causing the result that precipitated his removal.

which is paradoxically why, the big market teams who did leverage Stadia deal like Yankees, and other teams in big markets like LA and Miami and Chitown, could out-bid opposition of the franchise players... But as seen with Michael Lewis tome, Moneyball on the Oakland As, there are other strategies to get around not being able to afford ten Alex Rodriguez plural.

Also think, if you invest in the best young coach who will not follow the consensus opinion, and create a new method in the sport, not a new method for new methods sake, but something that can see the openings and niche and opportunities.

this was not Oakland As, they were simply Harvard MBA back office folk with a business analyst's metrics and convinced the manager how to get on base.

A champion team, will always beat a team of champions. And when you throw a mediocre team into the mix, with a champion coach, they can take down a champion team.

I comparing it with itself. Last season vs this season, same players, same coach, same tactics, one year older.

Almost 6 kms per game less in UEFA Champions league. And in the Spanish League I don't have the data, but I am yet to see a game where Barcelona have outrun the opposition in terms of total distance covered or average speed when they show the statistics in the middle of the game. They always come out second best.

Against Atlético Madrid they were outrun 2 kms, which is not much, but Atl Madrid had one player less for 2/3 of the game.

 

[Albatros]

Re:

Freakish thing with messi is though, it's basically been 3 years since he's had a rest. He plays every game for Barcelona, all 90 minutes, doesn't rest even if the game is already won (like against Arsenal in the champions league this year or Bayern last year), and in both 2014 and 2015 he took Argentina all the way to the final in an international competition.

Cristiano output is far more impressive. He plays in every game too, but works much harder than Messi.

If you watch Messi his explosive efforts have been reduced to a minimum. Cristiano on the other hand was the player who made more intensity runs per game in the Premier League and has continued in the same vain in Spain up to the age of 31.
Messi at 28 is a walking zombie for the majority of the game.

 

[fenns]

Sorry if this has been covered before but, given how open the EPL has been this season, do we know if doping control has been tightened up in some way?

 

[London Hibs]

Sorry if this has been covered before but, given how open the EPL has been this season, do we know if doping control has been tightened up in some way?

I can't speak for the EPL, but I can assure you that my team in Scotland are certainly not taking Performance Enhancing Drugs!

 

[Albatros]

Sorry if this has been covered before but, given how open the EPL has been this season, do we know if doping control has been tightened up in some way?

Don't know how to answer that one looking at what I perceive. English teams are not flying in Europe, but then you look at Leicester and they don't have the right to be where they are.