Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[kn0s]

This is one of the main benefits, for Rogla. Now when riding at the Tour, once Jonas or Pogi or Remco ... attacks. Rogla, or one of the Bora team members, can react instantly. This was not possible any more, for Rogla, riding for JV and participating at the Tour. So the way it worked at JV is Rogla would lose seconds here and there. To Jonas and possibly others. Due to team racing for Jonas and his preferences. That is not on how Rogla races. Rogla doesn't give seconds away. And that is in the end usually enough. With Bora Rogla should again be able to race like that. As in the end he only needs 1s on Jonas. If Jonas is the one to finish second.

This whole thought experiment is based on the Vuelta, not really a representation of a normal tour.

Non of the captains have any helpers in the end, unless they are in trouble, it's been this way the last two years. The team is used elsewhere not closing Jonas og Pog on the big days, they can't.

 

[bNator]

Woah woah woah, Nibali gets created for the win when Kruijswijk caused his own crash due to being put under pressure by Nibali. Roglic was over a minute and half back while the previous stages of Jumbo’s plan to blow up Evenepoel on the hard climbs like Pog in the Tour, was blowing up in their own face because Evenepoel wasn’t cracking and Roglic had to resort to his stomp to gain time. This caused Roglic to panic, attack at the end of a stage while his opponent was having a mechanical issue, and at the end of it crash into another rider because he had a mental lapse in judgment. Just like Kruijswijk crashing into the snow was due to being under pressure and having a mental lapse causing his crash. With that same logic sounds like he got beat to me.

Yes, I would not use Roglic's crash to excuse him from losing that Vuelta. Even if he didn't crash it was not likely he would have won. I would say however, that it was Roglic's injury from TDF that excuses him. I was lurking the other day in Remco thread. It was a boring day, what can I say... I noticed they are still listing Covid as an explanation for Lombardia. I'm fine with that. But I would say if Covid counts 6 months after, then a fractured spine should count 6 weeks after...

Other than that, I don't think a comparison of Colle Dell'Agnello with last years Vuelta was in order due to roles being reversed in terms of who is in pole position to win. I think Evenepoel actually was cracking as he lost more than a minute in the two mountain stages preceeeding Roglic's crash with two mountain stages to go (I still don't believe Roglic would have made it). And I don't think it's fair to say Roglic attacked while his opponent was having a mechanical issue - mechanical issue happened during the attack...

 

[CyclistAbi]

Shadow93 posted the latest Tour de France betting odds above. Remco is third.

Yeah, i know. It was a joke. As the whole betting thing.

 

[CyclistAbi]

This whole thought experiment is based on the Vuelta, not really a representation of a normal tour.

Non of the captains have any helpers in the end, unless they are in trouble, it's been this way the last two years. The team is used elsewhere not closing Jonas og Pog on the big days, they can't.

This whole Vuelta experiment revealed in its fullest. Rogla would get no chances at the Tour any more, riding for JV. Maybe as a plan C, when all other options would be exhausted. And then it would likely be too late anyway. Due to JV costing him too much time. Much better to move on then to live in such denial. On how JV got you covered. The trust was just not there any more, due to JV actions. And once that is gone it's over.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So Rogla went from being UCI ranked as 24th at the end of last season to 3rd at the end of this season. Hopefully straight to the top again in 2024 season.

Chapeau!

 

[kn0s]

This whole Vuelta experiment revealed in its fullest. Rogla would get no chances at the Tour any more, riding for JV. Maybe as a plan C, when all other options would be exhausted. And then it would likely be too late anyway. Due to JV costing him too much time. Much better to move on then to live in such denial. On how JV got you covered. The trust was just not there any more, due to JV actions. And once that is gone it's over.

He is at a new team and that's fine. But I still don't agree that the next tour with him at Jumbo, would look anything like this Vuelta, not even close.

 

[Berniece]

So Rogla went from being UCI ranked as 24th at the end of last season to 3rd at the end of this season. Hopefully straight to the top again in 2024 season.

Chapeau!

Maybe if Pogacar has an injury that cancels his whole season

 

[CyclistAbi]

He is at a new team and that's fine. But I still don't agree that the next tour with him at Jumbo, would look anything like this Vuelta, not even close.

Yeah. JV would for sure do everything in their power to keep Rogla from not losing seconds. And on top of that would for sure not bother about anything else then to launch Jonas up the first hill, Rogla obvisuly sitting back and waiting for somebody else to go and bridge the gap. So he is allowed to follow. Kuss on his wheel. It would totally be different than Vuelta 2023!

 

[CyclistAbi]

Maybe if Pogacar has an injury that cancels his whole season

I was reading similar, or better much worse, predictions about Rogla at the end of last year. Bottom line, nobody needs to injure themself. Rogla will do just fine regardless.

 

[Berniece]

I was reading similar, or better much worse, predictions about Rogla at the end of last year. Bottom line, nobody needs to injure themself. Rogla will do just fine regardless.

Sure, but becoming #1 is ridiculously difficult when Pogacar is fit. Even if Roglic would win the TDF, like Vingegaard did this year, there's so much more to do to become #1. Pogacar had a +2000 lead this year. Even if Roglic would have won the Vuelta and Lombardia, he wouldn't be #1, and that would've been an almost perfect season for Roglic.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Sure, but becoming #1 is ridiculously difficult when Pogacar is fit. Even if Roglic would win the TDF, like Vingegaard did this year, there's so much more to do to become #1. Pogacar had a +2000 lead this year. Even if Roglic would have won the Vuelta and Lombardia, he wouldn't be #1, and that would've been an almost perfect season for Roglic.

It indeed sounds hard, gaining 2000 points more per season. Said that and in my opinion Rogla doesn't need to add 2000 points next season. That is at least some of that will likely come at expense of Jonas and Pogi. So i would say Rogla needs to add around 800 points more. We'll see.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So with the new equipment package can we expect for an ITT results to improve slightly?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

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[acm]

Oh wow, so funny.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yes, I would not use Roglic's crash to excuse him from losing that Vuelta. Even if he didn't crash it was not likely he would have won. I would say however, that it was Roglic's injury from TDF that excuses him. I was lurking the other day in Remco thread. It was a boring day, what can I say... I noticed they are still listing Covid as an explanation for Lombardia. I'm fine with that. But I would say if Covid counts 6 months after, then a fractured spine should count 6 weeks after...

Other than that, I don't think a comparison of Colle Dell'Agnello with last years Vuelta was in order due to roles being reversed in terms of who is in pole position to win. I think Evenepoel actually was cracking as he lost more than a minute in the two mountain stages preceeeding Roglic's crash with two mountain stages to go (I still don't believe Roglic would have made it). And I don't think it's fair to say Roglic attacked while his opponent was having a mechanical issue - mechanical issue happened during the attack...

That Tour crash definitely hampered his form as he showed this year. The fact he was riding again so soon is crazy. Who knows what’s going on with Covid, maybe it was the flu maybe it was nothing but I think his focus on CSS and Worlds hampered his Vuelta prep. And yes a fractured spine definitely counts.

Evenepoel started losing time though after the crashes, then he was riding strong again. Evenepoel had been riding with the flat for awhile and wasn’t at the front which is most likely why Roglic attacked, having a mechanical issue was just a by product.

You mean Roglic attacked, then Remco dropped, thought that he'll lose lot of time and then faked his mechanic inside of 3km, so he will get the time of chasing group?

You mean Roglic attacked and crashed into Wright to take himself out because he wasn’t going to catch Evenepoel and wanted to save face?

Or like how Evenepoel had fake Covid? Probably never crashed in Lombardia either, it was a stunt double.

 

[Oldermanish]

This whole thought experiment is based on the Vuelta, not really a representation of a normal tour.

Non of the captains have any helpers in the end, unless they are in trouble, it's been this way the last two years. The team is used elsewhere not closing Jonas og Pog on the big days, they can't.

You're conveniently forgetting Kuss closing down Carapaz on the first Tour that Pogacar won. He could've won that stage if he'd kept going but he waited for Primoz who gained time on Pogacar. Tough stage and teamwork was effective. Probably last time it was employed for Primoz in a Tour.

 

[bNator]

You're conveniently forgetting Kuss closing down Carapaz on the first Tour that Pogacar won. He could've won that stage if he'd kept going but he waited for Primoz who gained time on Pogacar. Tough stage and teamwork was effective. Probably last time it was employed for Primoz in a Tour.

You mean Lopez?

 

[Oldermanish]

You mean Lopez?

Both, I think. Wasn't Carapaz out there until the final 3km? MAL wasn't a serious GC threat at that point. I may be mixing stages, though.

 

[Oldermanish]

I wouldn't say that Vingegaard had a cakewalk tour. He was only ten seconds ahead going into stage 16.

Having the last week unopposed is the definition of cakewalk.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Having the last week unopposed is the definition of cakewalk.

While I agree with this I think from what they meant a closer example is 2009 and 2011 TdF and GdI Contador, 2013 TdF Froome, 2021 TdF Pogacar, 2021 VaE Roglic, and 2022 TdF Vinge.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Having the last week unopposed is the definition of cakewalk.

Disagree. A cakewalk is like the 2001 Tour, big anticipation of a showdown between Armstrong and Ullrich; on the very first meaningful stage Armstrong took 2 minutes, and continued to extend his advantage from there.

In the 2023 Tour Vingegaard took a minute on the first meaningful stage, but Pogacar immediately fought back. The pair proceeded to trade jabs throughout many more rounds. Basically this was a heavyweight showdown that was fascinating and in the balance through at least eight rounds.

 

[Oldermanish]

Disagree. A cakewalk is like the 2001 Tour, big anticipation of a showdown between Armstrong and Ullrich; on the very first meaningful stage Armstrong took 2 minutes, and continued to extend his advantage from there.

In the 2023 Tour Vingegaard took a minute on the first meaningful stage, but Pogacar immediately fought back. The pair proceeded to trade jabs throughout many more rounds. Basically this was a heavyweight showdown that was fascinating and in the balance through at least eight rounds.

I didn't see the same 2023 edition. I saw Jonas and JV coldly taking every advantage with minimum effort until the lead was inescapably large, barring a crash. They knew Pogacar was fighting with diminished reserves and preparation. Knowing his situation pre-Tour; I'd wager it was the strategy they planned to use.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I didn't see the same 2023 edition. I saw Jonas and JV coldly taking every advantage with minimum effort until the lead was inescapably large, barring a crash. They knew Pogacar was fighting with diminished reserves and preparation. Knowing his situation pre-Tour; I'd wager it was the strategy they planned to use.

Interesting use of minimum effort on stage 6.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I didn't see the same 2023 edition. I saw Jonas and JV coldly taking every advantage with minimum effort until the lead was inescapably large, barring a crash. They knew Pogacar was fighting with diminished reserves and preparation. Knowing his situation pre-Tour; I'd wager it was the strategy they planned to use.

Jumbo were trying to take it to Pog and UAE every stage they could the whole three weeks. Jumbo would set the pace and Vinge would be on the front till the last KM on every sprint stage. They set the pace on multiple stages and since stage 5 to the TT UAE strong armed them. Vinge was putting out as much, if not more due to riding at the front so long in the sprints stages, energy as Pog. Jumbo was banking on the race being as hard as possible and Pog running out of base. And it worked to their plan with Vinge looking like he just showed up to stage 1 and Pog like he actually raced the last two weeks.

 

[tobydawq]

Jumbo were trying to take it to Pog and UAE every stage they could the whole three weeks. Jumbo would set the pace and Vinge would be on the front till the last KM on every sprint stage. They set the pace on multiple stages and since stage 5 to the TT UAE strong armed them. Vinge was putting out as much, if not more due to riding at the front so long in the sprints stages, energy as Pog. Jumbo was banking on the race being as hard as possible and Pog running out of base. And it worked to their plan with Vinge looking like he just showed up to stage 1 and Pog like he actually raced the last two weeks.

I'm looking forward to next year when CyclistAbi will bemoan Jumbo for riding like this year, playing to Vingegaard's rather than Roglic' strength, even though Roglic is no longer on the team.