Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[badboygolf16v]

Edit: As for Ferrari trolling, noted original thinker and no-doubt soon to be exposed doping apologist Graeme Obree, had similar thoughts:

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=129

Emptying your lungs before inhaling is hardly revolutionary, it is also hardly unknown. Stuey OG or Stevo (I forget who) mentioned this in Cycle Sport as a tip ten or fifteen years ago.

 

[Granville57]

Just read this
http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=130

Ferrari. What's not to love about the guy? The source of other such gems as

Some Authors (Med Hypotheses 2007; 68:735-749) argue that high levels of gonadotropins and prolactin resulting from orchiectomy may explain the improvements of Lance Armstrong in three-week stage races, in which an increased use of lipids - saving of glycogen allows a better recovery and thus better performances.
If this is true, the intake of exogenous testosterone in endurance activities would be useless (J Endocrinol 2001, 170:27-38) if not detrimental to the performance...

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Who's saying that? This is the ridiculous reductive spiral at work.

It's just one of many possible techniques that may be used. Or are you saying that all riders are identical, can never improve, and that no coaching can possibly make a difference?

Lets ask Jan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xuGoqvtrQe0#t=33

 

[Merckx index]

The guy says it tested it practically, did you?

Apparently you didn't notice that I never commented on whether I thought it worked or not. I said much of his reasoning was faulty. Did you test his reasoning? I did.

I agree with Ferrari that an improvement over uncontrolled breathing is probably possible. But I would want more than one man's claim that he tested it before I conclude that this particular technique works.

The rest of your comments were incorrectly directed at something I never posted.

 

[EnacheV]

Lets ask Jan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xuGoqvtrQe0#t=33

the epo powered fat climber ? who cares what he has to say

at least Froome has the decency to be skeletal

 

[Granville57]

the epo powered fat climber ? who cares what he has to say

at least Froome has the decency to be skeletal

OK, that was pretty good.

On a more serious note...

The issue of breathing techniques is interesting because it does illustrate the type of methods that a team might develop/modify that would fall outside the realm of doping, or any other rule violation, if it proved to be significantly useful. It would also be the type of thing that teams would, understandably, be hesitant to to share with their competitors or anyone else. And breathing techniques specifically, are the type of thing that a swim coach may well have some interesting insight into.

So I've often wondered if there are some approaches that would fall under such a category, that Sky are using. I can't take the breathing technique too seriously, in this case, however, for a few simple reasons.

Races are typically won and lost on the hardest parts of the hardest climbs.
Under those circumstances, it's all an anyone can do (even elite athletes) to just keep breathing at all. We saw Froome collapse and need oxygen, and Quintana barely able to remain conscious after their best efforts. I refuse to believe that under such circumstances there is any room, whatsoever, for modified breathing techniques. Could there be, when the stresses are much less earlier in the climb? Perhaps, but that's not where the win or lose separation usually occurs.

 

[Lanark]

the epo powered fat climber ? who cares what he has to say

at least Froome has the decency to be skeletal

At least Ullrich had the decency to look not look like a skeleton when he defeated the competition in an itt.

 

[Netserk]

OK, that was pretty good.

On a more serious note...

The issue of breathing techniques is interesting because it does illustrate the type of methods that a team might develop/modify that would fall outside the realm of doping, or any other rule violation, if it proved to be significantly useful. It would also be the type of thing that teams would, understandably, be hesitant to to share with their competitors or anyone else. And breathing techniques specifically, are the type of thing that a swim coach may well have some interesting insight into.

So I've often wondered if there are some approaches that would fall under such a category, that Sky are using. I can't take the breathing technique too seriously, in this case, however, for a few simple reasons.

Races are typically won and lost on the hardest parts of the hardest climbs.
Under those circumstances, it's all an anyone can do (even elite athletes) to just keep breathing at all. We saw Froome collapse and need oxygen, and Quintana barely able to remain conscious after their best efforts. I refuse to believe that under such circumstances there is any room, whatsoever, for modified breathing techniques. Could there be, when the stresses are much less earlier in the climb? Perhaps, but that's not where the win or lose separation usually occurs.

Michael Rasmussen wrote about his breathing technique when he described his stage win to La Toussuire in his book.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Thank you, it makes it so much easier when you explain the fallacy before using it

Good spot. That was slack.

 

[will10]

I can't even believe we're still discussing Ferrari's explanation of Froome's "breathing technique".

Bar some of the threads on here, 53x12.com is the prime site for trolling cycling fans.

 

[will10]

Rouleur ‏@rouleurmagazine 25m
Chris Froome's vital details from today's Tour of Oman stage. 3159kj spent, 89.9km/h maximum speed

Gotta love that transparancy.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Breathing technique???, wow just wo. That thread is better than any satire/ comedy show.

 

[EnacheV]

Breathing technique???, wow just wo. That thread is better than any satire/ comedy show.

yeah, everybody knows cycling is only hump a bike and spin those pedals. everyone does it.

 

[nomapnocompass]

Occam's Razor.

When you hear the sound of hooves, horses not zebras...

When you see a pro cyclist riding up a climb at the same level as doped performances of the past, doping not breathing tecnniques...

 

[EnacheV]

Occam's Razor.

When you hear the sound of hooves, horses not zebras...

When you see a pro cyclist riding up a climb at the same level as doped performances of the past, doping not breathing tecnniques...

yes, also in mid 60's they used to do the high jump with the foot in front.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SlVLyNixqU

you see were im going ?

i bet that if you asked some coach if would be possible to jump +10% in cm's would have said "doper"

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Occam's Razor.

When you hear the sound of hooves, horses not zebras...

When you see a pro cyclist riding up a climb at the same level as doped performances of the past, doping not breathing tecnniques...

How does Occam slice Froome's dazzling failure to bag a top 50 all-time up Alpe d'Huez?

 

[nomapnocompass]

yes, also in mid 60's they used to do the high jump with the foot in front.

you see were im going ?

i bet that if you asked some coach if would be possible to jump +10% in cm's would have said "doper"

In which case you are arguing that Team Sky and Froome have discovered something revolutionary that gives them a step up on the opposition. The history of endurance sport shows that such a sudden marked improvement has only come with doping...

The below graph shows the massive step increase in performances that occurred due to the introduction of blood vector doping.

We have not returned to performances of those 'pre-EPO/blood doping' levels. One would expect an increase in performances over time but to have Froome racing up climbs in comparable times to doped performances of the 90's and 00's surely is cause for concern... unless you are a fan of Sky I guess.

 

[Netserk]

How does Occam slice Froome's dazzling failure to bag a top 50 all-time up Alpe d'Huez?

The same as it would to Armstrong's 2003 time.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

The same as it would to Armstrong's 2003 time.

This is what I don't get about the faster than known dopers charge (well apart from the sample size of 1 serious climb and 1 nobody previously cared about). We know the dopers were at 100% because they were close to Froome's time. Froome is a doper because his time is close to known dopers. Seems a little circular.

But it's repeated so often I must be missing something.

 

[GuyIncognito]

This is what I don't get about the faster than known dopers charge (well apart from the sample size of 1 serious climb and 1 nobody previously cared about). We know the dopers were at 100% because they were close to Froome's time. Froome is a doper because his time is close to known dopers. Seems a little circular.

But it's repeated so often I must be missing something.

This post is not for you:

The fallacy in VentouxBoar's post is that he appears to be saying 'A because B and B because A and that's circular reasoning', when in reality he's saying 'A because B and B because C, allow me to try and twist the wording so that you'll believe that A and C are the exact same letter'

 

[IzzyStradlin]

And breathing techniques specifically, are the type of thing that a swim coach may well have some interesting insight into.

Or just about any high school track coach. Or just anyone who puts "breathing technique" into the google.

I refuse to believe that under such circumstances there is any room, whatsoever, for modified breathing techniques. Could there be, when the stresses are much less earlier in the climb? Perhaps, but that's not where the win or lose separation usually occurs.

Exactly.

 

[peloton]

In which case you are arguing that Team Sky and Froome have discovered something revolutionary that gives them a step up on the opposition. The history of endurance sport shows that such a sudden marked improvement has only come with doping...

The below graph shows the massive step increase in performances that occurred due to the introduction of blood vector doping.

We have not returned to performances of those 'pre-EPO/blood doping' levels. One would expect an increase in performances over time but to have Froome racing up climbs in comparable times to doped performances of the 90's and 00's surely is cause for concern... unless you are a fan of Sky I guess.

This.
Good post.

 

[badbrainaj]

I just thought Froome's right ear was heavier than his left ear.

 

[gooner]

Nico Roche talking about Froome.

VN: Do riders in the peloton believe Froome?

NR: I hope so. I want to believe that, or else I would be ****ed off with him. It’s terrible to think you’re getting your *** kicked by someone’s who cheating. I want to believe that the guys are racing clean at the front today. For us riders, to continue in that clean way, you have to hope that the guys you are competing against, and who are beating you, are simply better.

VN: Can riders in the peloton tell who’s on the gear these days?

NR: It’s difficult to ever know. It’s often unfair to say to someone who’s going bad, they’re on it, or off it. It’s very easy to say that. You just don’t know. If we work on percentages, between number of athletes, number of tests, if you get seven or eight [positives] a year, it’s actually a very small number.

VN: It seems the peloton’s changed a lot since the Armstrong era, is that true?

NR: I would not have enjoyed being a cyclist in the 1990s, to be under that kind of pressure. I am happy that I was pro after that. Today, if you take your job seriously, you can get results and have a healthy life. There is no one pushing us to do bad things. The guys today can go into the sport and you can race clean.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/02/news/nicolas-roche-on-his-dad-contador-and-froome_317890

 

[Ventoux Boar]

This post is not for you:

The fallacy in VentouxBoar's post is that he appears to be saying 'A because B and B because A and that's circular reasoning', when in reality he's saying 'A because B and B because C, allow me to try and twist the wording so that you'll believe that A and C are the exact same letter'

Norm Chomsky with the badly needed logic lessons

But thanks for pointing out that we seem to lack a robust method for assessing relative effort levels, quite apart from external environmental factors complicating the comparisons.