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GC Power Ranking

Page 5 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
#Prev.Diff.RiderTeamPoints
12▲1VINGEGAARD JonasJumbo-Visma1330
28▲6YATES AdamUAE Team Emirates1157
31▼2EVENEPOEL RemcoSoudal - Quick Step1055
49▲5ALMEIDA JoãoUAE Team Emirates1040
515▲10ROGLIČ PrimožJumbo-Visma900
620▲14LANDA MikelBahrain - Victorious801
73▼4POGAČAR TadejUAE Team Emirates780
85▼3BILBAO PelloBahrain - Victorious750
96▼3HINDLEY JaiBORA - hansgrohe724
1039▲29YATES SimonTeam Jayco AlUla710
1126▲15PINOT ThibautGroupama - FDJ696
1217▲5SKJELMOSE MattiasLidl - Trek675
1313-O'CONNOR BenAG2R Citroën Team665
1418▲4RODRÍGUEZ CarlosINEOS Grenadiers660
1528▲13MAS EnricMovistar Team622
1629▲13GAUDU DavidGroupama - FDJ565
1754▲37GEOGHEGAN HART TaoINEOS Grenadiers535
1825▲7CARUSO DamianoBahrain - Victorious522
19103▲84RUBIO Einer AugustoMovistar Team508
20112▲92GALL FelixAG2R Citroën Team486
21105▲84MOHORIČ MatejBahrain - Victorious485
2231▲9LÓPEZ Miguel ÁngelTeam Medellín - EPM467
2322▼1AYUSO JuanUAE Team Emirates466
2457▲33HAIG JackBahrain - Victorious451
2541▲16VAUQUELIN KévinTeam Arkéa Samsic448
2673▲47JORGENSON MatteoMovistar Team445
2799▲72KUSS SeppJumbo-Visma434
2890▲62CICCONE GiulioLidl - Trek430
2977▲48MAJKA RafałUAE Team Emirates429
3076▲46SHEFFIELD MagnusINEOS Grenadiers407
3140▲9MCNULTY BrandonUAE Team Emirates405
327▼25ARENSMAN ThymenINEOS Grenadiers403
3342▲9URÁN RigobertoEF Education-EasyPost393
3458▲24SCHMID MauroSoudal - Quick Step385
35136▲101VAN WILDER IlanSoudal - Quick Step385
3638▲2LEKNESSUND AndreasTeam dsm - firmenich377
37395▲358GANNA FilippoINEOS Grenadiers375
38249▲211POOLE MaxTeam dsm - firmenich366
39219▲180KÄMNA LennardBORA - hansgrohe365
4085▲45DUNBAR EddieTeam Jayco AlUla365
4137▼4CARTHY HughEF Education-EasyPost361
42145▲103UIJTDEBROEKS CianBORA - hansgrohe360
4316▼27MEINTJES LouisIntermarché - Circus - Wanty356
4423▼21MARTIN GuillaumeCofidis354
4565▲20PIDCOCK ThomasINEOS Grenadiers351
4672▲26KELDERMAN WilcoJumbo-Visma340
4719▼28BARDET RomainTeam dsm - firmenich338
4812▼36THOMAS GeraintINEOS Grenadiers325
4911▼38HIGUITA SergioBORA - hansgrohe320
5075▲25FORTUNATO LorenzoEOLO-Kometa316

Solved.

You're welcome.
The problem with PCS is its just about points accumulation over the last 12 months . So this is points accumulated in general classements over the last year, and pogacar only did 3 stage races in that time. Ruta del sol, Paris Nixe and Tour de france. He won 2 convincingly and lost the other to Vingegard. But still doesn't get loads of points compared to almida, remco, Yates, landa who did a lot more stage racing and got more points.
 
#Prev.Diff.RiderTeamPoints
12▲1VINGEGAARD JonasJumbo-Visma1330
28▲6YATES AdamUAE Team Emirates1157
31▼2EVENEPOEL RemcoSoudal - Quick Step1055
49▲5ALMEIDA JoãoUAE Team Emirates1040
515▲10ROGLIČ PrimožJumbo-Visma900
620▲14LANDA MikelBahrain - Victorious801
73▼4POGAČAR TadejUAE Team Emirates780
85▼3BILBAO PelloBahrain - Victorious750
96▼3HINDLEY JaiBORA - hansgrohe724
1039▲29YATES SimonTeam Jayco AlUla710
1126▲15PINOT ThibautGroupama - FDJ696
1217▲5SKJELMOSE MattiasLidl - Trek675
1313-O'CONNOR BenAG2R Citroën Team665
1418▲4RODRÍGUEZ CarlosINEOS Grenadiers660
1528▲13MAS EnricMovistar Team622
1629▲13GAUDU DavidGroupama - FDJ565
1754▲37GEOGHEGAN HART TaoINEOS Grenadiers535
1825▲7CARUSO DamianoBahrain - Victorious522
19103▲84RUBIO Einer AugustoMovistar Team508
20112▲92GALL FelixAG2R Citroën Team486
21105▲84MOHORIČ MatejBahrain - Victorious485
2231▲9LÓPEZ Miguel ÁngelTeam Medellín - EPM467
2322▼1AYUSO JuanUAE Team Emirates466
2457▲33HAIG JackBahrain - Victorious451
2541▲16VAUQUELIN KévinTeam Arkéa Samsic448
2673▲47JORGENSON MatteoMovistar Team445
2799▲72KUSS SeppJumbo-Visma434
2890▲62CICCONE GiulioLidl - Trek430
2977▲48MAJKA RafałUAE Team Emirates429
3076▲46SHEFFIELD MagnusINEOS Grenadiers407
3140▲9MCNULTY BrandonUAE Team Emirates405
327▼25ARENSMAN ThymenINEOS Grenadiers403
3342▲9URÁN RigobertoEF Education-EasyPost393
3458▲24SCHMID MauroSoudal - Quick Step385
35136▲101VAN WILDER IlanSoudal - Quick Step385
3638▲2LEKNESSUND AndreasTeam dsm - firmenich377
37395▲358GANNA FilippoINEOS Grenadiers375
38249▲211POOLE MaxTeam dsm - firmenich366
39219▲180KÄMNA LennardBORA - hansgrohe365
4085▲45DUNBAR EddieTeam Jayco AlUla365
4137▼4CARTHY HughEF Education-EasyPost361
42145▲103UIJTDEBROEKS CianBORA - hansgrohe360
4316▼27MEINTJES LouisIntermarché - Circus - Wanty356
4423▼21MARTIN GuillaumeCofidis354
4565▲20PIDCOCK ThomasINEOS Grenadiers351
4672▲26KELDERMAN WilcoJumbo-Visma340
4719▼28BARDET RomainTeam dsm - firmenich338
4812▼36THOMAS GeraintINEOS Grenadiers325
4911▼38HIGUITA SergioBORA - hansgrohe320
5075▲25FORTUNATO LorenzoEOLO-Kometa316

Solved.

You're welcome.
I mean, you took the time to post the list, so surely you read it. Do you think that is an accurate reflection of their relative strength in a stage race?
 
So some people really believe Roglic would beat Pogacar in one week races? Funny as hell. Pogacar would smoke Roglic in Tirreno-Adriatico and Catalunya this year.
Catalunya most likely yes. Tirreno I don’t think so. Just because Roglic didn’t go harder doesn’t mean he couldn’t have. And this year’s terrain in Tirreno would typically prefer Roglic over other riders. Not many chances for Pog to smoke Roglic there…
 
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Do we really have a conclusive and reliable source that it is?

Because they do certainly resemble each other too much for me to really buy that they're dizygotic.
Sharing no DNA is impressive considering we share about 60% of our genome with bananas.

But I've seen it reported multiple times over the years they're fraternal twins, I don't see a real reason to doubt it. They do look less similar than maternal twins to me.
 
LMAO.....this thread will never produce such a result.
Of course. We have imperfect information, relative strength is dynamic, and then that is filtered through real world events that involve chance and outside factors like teams. But discussion is interesting to some, which is typically why we’re on a discussion forum rather than just checking the points list. And anyways, that is all points, not limited to contending for GC in stage races. You are free to attempt to use logic to explain why Landa should be ranked above Pogacar if you’d care to enter the discussion on this discussion forum.
 
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Of course. We have imperfect information, relative strength is dynamic, and then that is filtered through real world events that involve chance and outside factors like teams. But discussion is interesting to some, which is typically why we’re on a discussion forum rather than just checking the points list. And anyways, that is all points, not limited to contending for GC in stage races. You are free to attempt to use logic to explain why Landa should be ranked above Pogacar if you’d care to enter the discussion on this discussion forum.

It is PCS GC points.
You are free to attempt to use logic to explain why quantifying results is somehow inferior to whatever method you used, if you'd care to enter the discussion on this discussion forum.
 
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It is PCS GC points.
You are free to attempt to use logic to explain why quantifying results is somehow inferior to whatever method you used, if you'd care to enter the discussion on this discussion forum.
Fair play. Quantifying results is a great place to start. I disagree with the results you quantified, however. For a GC power ranking, I would only consider final GC placement in GTs and big 7 stage races within the 2022-2023 seasons, with higher consideration for 2023 results.

And then for a proper power ranking, I would layer in harder to quantify elements like competition, dominance, top end spikes performances, and context. The top 7 all were first or second in a GT in the last two seasons, which, to me, is the best starting point. The next two were third in a GT. I admittedly whiffed on the 10th. In PCS points systems, you’re better off getting OK results in every stage race than winning the Tour, which is a major flaw. Winning the Tour is of course a better predictor of ability to win the Tour than getting fifth in all the top 7 weeklong stage races.

Here is a bit of my rationale:
  1. Vingegaard - Dominated the biggest stage race of the year, the Tour, against a 2-time winner who is in his prime. Also won two big 7 stage races.
  2. Pogacar - Second in the biggest race of the year, putting Vingegaard under pressure before collapsing. 2 dominant big 7 stage race wins. Some benefit for coming into the Tour underprepared with broken wrist, plus some boost for being a 2-time Tour winner, beating Roglic and Vingegaard, while still being clearly in his prime, unlike G.
  3. Roglic - First in the Giro, while winning 2 big stage races, defeating Remco in one. No losses this year. Some benefit from his overall record and the context of suboptimal prep + crashed hard during the Giro, which likely hurt his performance.
  4. Remco - First in the Vuelta and second in Catalunya (and way ahead of everyone else). Could have won the Giro but who can say. Arguably above Roglic because he beat him last year, but I elevated recent results in my ranking.
  5. Geraint Thomas - second in Giro by just 14 seconds, third in 2022 Tour behind the top 2 on this list. No other stage race results to speak of, but he has only been beaten by the top 3 in this ranking in the last two years GTs he’s raced, so I think that earns him spot 5. Others cannot say the same.
  6. Jai Hindley - upon second thought, likely ranked him too high, taking in his first in the 2022 Giro, which was more than 12 months ago. He did crash in the Tour, which hurt his results (7th). Otherwise, could have been third. I would likely bump him down, as his best other results are 4th in the Dauphine and 8th in Catalunya.
  7. Enric Mas - second in last years Vuelta behind Remco, which is the result that gets him here.
  8. Almeida - Third in Giro, third in Tirreno, second in Catalunya. Based on those results clearly a step below Roglic but not far off. Pretty consistent. Top results are not as strong as those above, however.
  9. Adam Yates - Third in the Tour behind the top two on this list, first in Romandie, second in Dauphine. Probably should be 7th on this list. Strong argument for “best of the rest” while clearly being below the top 4 + G IMO.
  10. Carlos Rodriguez - Possibly too high. Gave him the benefit of the doubt for finishing fifth in the biggest stage race of the year despite a bad crash and while being so young and on the upswing.
After analyzing a bit further, I would probably change the bottom 5 to:

6. Adam Yates
7. Jaoa Almeida
8. Juan Ayuso
9. Jai Hindley
10. Enric Mas

But I would not add Landa, who is 6th on the pcs list but just got 19th in the Tour and 22nd in the Dauphine. He ranks highly because he races a lot. His best results are 3rd in 2022 Giro and 2nd in Itzulia, which doesn’t beat top results of anyone in my top 10, in part because the Giro was quite a while ago whereas the Tour was just last month.

PCS also has Almeida ahead of Roglic, who beat Almeida in every single stage race (3) that they raced this year. So clearly he should be below Roglic.

Pogacar is not only below Landa in the PCS list (lol) but also below his teammate Adam Yates, who rates himself so far below Pogi that he couldn’t even maintain the bluff that he was a co-leader but instead blurted out that he was working 100% for Pogi. And he did.
 
I didn't quantify the results, PCS did. I picked it because I think any kind of whimsical sniff test power ranking needs to be compared against some sort of repeatable model, and PCS made it easy with just a couple of clicks.

Their rankings have both good points and bad points.

They weight different races differently...good. But there will never be a consensus on the relative importance of races to each other, and never a consensus of weighting the placements within a race.

Every rider is given equal consideration. Even Landa. That must be good.

That list ranks over last 365 days. Good that a time period is fixed. But I think that's too far back for power rankings.

You only get points for finishing the race. Extremely good. No credit for looking great and not finishing.

I'm only human and seeing Landa on the list doesn't pass my sniff test. At least two posters have raised objections to seeing him there and the complaint he races too much and gets too many results. But finishing a lot of races high enough to score points must be factored in. Surely it is a measure of his power to do so.
 
That’s not a powerrankings, that’s result ranking, though unless you really think number 2-6 will finish higher than Pog. I’d allow it just to see @CyclistAbi reaction to Roglic being 5th and Almeida and Evenepoel ahead of him.

From this thread point of view i am rather OK with that. That is as long as Rogla keeps finishing ahead on actual races.
 
Fair play. Quantifying results is a great place to start. I disagree with the results you quantified, however. For a GC power ranking, I would only consider final GC placement in GTs and big 7 stage races within the 2022-2023 seasons, with higher consideration for 2023 results.

And then for a proper power ranking, I would layer in harder to quantify elements like competition, dominance, top end spikes performances, and context. The top 7 all were first or second in a GT in the last two seasons, which, to me, is the best starting point. The next two were third in a GT. I admittedly whiffed on the 10th. In PCS points systems, you’re better off getting OK results in every stage race than winning the Tour, which is a major flaw. Winning the Tour is of course a better predictor of ability to win the Tour than getting fifth in all the top 7 weeklong stage races.

Here is a bit of my rationale:
  1. Vingegaard - Dominated the biggest stage race of the year, the Tour, against a 2-time winner who is in his prime. Also won two big 7 stage races.
  2. Pogacar - Second in the biggest race of the year, putting Vingegaard under pressure before collapsing. 2 dominant big 7 stage race wins. Some benefit for coming into the Tour underprepared with broken wrist, plus some boost for being a 2-time Tour winner, beating Roglic and Vingegaard, while still being clearly in his prime, unlike G.
  3. Roglic - First in the Giro, while winning 2 big stage races, defeating Remco in one. No losses this year. Some benefit from his overall record and the context of suboptimal prep + crashed hard during the Giro, which likely hurt his performance.
  4. Remco - First in the Vuelta and second in Catalunya (and way ahead of everyone else). Could have won the Giro but who can say. Arguably above Roglic because he beat him last year, but I elevated recent results in my ranking.
  5. Geraint Thomas - second in Giro by just 14 seconds, third in 2022 Tour behind the top 2 on this list. No other stage race results to speak of, but he has only been beaten by the top 3 in this ranking in the last two years GTs he’s raced, so I think that earns him spot 5. Others cannot say the same.
  6. Jai Hindley - upon second thought, likely ranked him too high, taking in his first in the 2022 Giro, which was more than 12 months ago. He did crash in the Tour, which hurt his results (7th). Otherwise, could have been third. I would likely bump him down, as his best other results are 4th in the Dauphine and 8th in Catalunya.
  7. Enric Mas - second in last years Vuelta behind Remco, which is the result that gets him here.
  8. Almeida - Third in Giro, third in Tirreno, second in Catalunya. Based on those results clearly a step below Roglic but not far off. Pretty consistent. Top results are not as strong as those above, however.
  9. Adam Yates - Third in the Tour behind the top two on this list, first in Romandie, second in Dauphine. Probably should be 7th on this list. Strong argument for “best of the rest” while clearly being below the top 4 + G IMO.
  10. Carlos Rodriguez - Possibly too high. Gave him the benefit of the doubt for finishing fifth in the biggest stage race of the year despite a bad crash and while being so young and on the upswing.
After analyzing a bit further, I would probably change the bottom 5 to:

6. Adam Yates
7. Jaoa Almeida
8. Juan Ayuso
9. Jai Hindley
10. Enric Mas

But I would not add Landa, who is 6th on the pcs list but just got 19th in the Tour and 22nd in the Dauphine. He ranks highly because he races a lot. His best results are 3rd in 2022 Giro and 2nd in Itzulia, which doesn’t beat top results of anyone in my top 10, in part because the Giro was quite a while ago whereas the Tour was just last month.

PCS also has Almeida ahead of Roglic, who beat Almeida in every single stage race (3) that they raced this year. So clearly he should be below Roglic.

Pogacar is not only below Landa in the PCS list (lol) but also below his teammate Adam Yates, who rates himself so far below Pogi that he couldn’t even maintain the bluff that he was a co-leader but instead blurted out that he was working 100% for Pogi. And he did.

An excellent and impressive appraisal of the present talent.

I would be one elevating Remco over Rog. But that is as likely to be due to personal bias as you doing the opposite is due to recency bias.

Great summary.
 
The absence of Ayuso in all these top-10s is a glaring omission that I expect to be swiftly rectified in the first week of the Vuelta.

For me, it goes like this:

Vingegaard
Pogacar
Roglic, Evenepoel (in that order)
Thomas, Ayuso (in that order)
And then a rather amorphous blob containing Hindley, Mas, A Yates, Rodriguez, Carapaz, Hart and Almeida where the order becomes really unclear.
First week of the Vuelta has passed. Still doesn't make any sense to rank Ayuso besides Thomas a month ago.

And Kuss will have to enter the rankings.
 
First week of the Vuelta has passed. Still doesn't make any sense to rank Ayuso besides Thomas a month ago.

And Kuss will have to enter the rankings.
Thomas' main achievements to be ranked highly is to be the first non-Jumbo/Pogacar rider in the 2022 Tour and 2023 Giro. Ayuso is currently in the same spot in this race, in spite of back issues. I think that list is still accurate, except of course that Kuss most probably goes into the top-5 at the end of this Vuelta.
 
And the fact that the Vuelta was his season target that he has been on track for since Suisse, having ridden no other GT.

Meanwhile, Thomas faced the best on equal footing. And was 3rd in the Tour with more than 6 minutes down to 4th.
Riding no other GT was by necessity after not being able to race until May. Between that and his crash at Ordizia, it was hardly an ideal prep. Big difference between spending all year focusing on the Vuelta and spending most of the year recovering from injury, the only advantage maintained in case of the latter is freshness.

The time gap between Thomas and 4th was amplified by Pogacar going ballistic over and over, and the set of riders from 4th to 10th was really weak by Tour standards. Over 6 minutes up on 4th just becomes a lot less impressive when a) 4th is Gaudu and b) you're down over 7 on Vingegaard and over 4.5 on Pogacar, and ignoring that context really suggests you're cherrypicking time gaps. By your logic, I can also argue that he was only a minute up on Almeida at the Giro and therefore doesn't belong in a higher tier than Almeida - but I'm not, because it ignores the context of the gap to Roglic being even smaller.

Moreover, my original point you quoted and referred to was that Ayuso should definitely be top-10. Surely you'll agree he's at least proven that in this Vuelta?
 
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I wouldn't put him ahead of Mas and Adam Yates yet, maybe not even ahead of Almeida (who he was behind in GC until the latter became ill). So with Kuss moving in instead of Carapaz, I'd probably place him 11th for now, but quite close to Mas.
 
I doubt this will work, but this is my effort to consolidate discussion about relative strength and ranking of GC riders so that it doesn’t take over the Remco thread then move to the Vingegaard thread then pop into Roglic, etc. This is about stage races, not classics.

Obviously, this will be a fluid thing, but my unscientific and potentially provocative post-2023 Tour / pre-2023 Vuelta ranking is:
  1. Jonas Vingegaard
  2. Tadej Pogacar
  3. Primoz Roglic
  4. Remco Evenepoel
  5. Geraint Thomas
  6. Jai Hindley
  7. Enric Mas
  8. Joao Almeida
  9. Adam Yates
  10. Carlos Rodriguez
Curious what others say after the Vuelta (too early to really update rankings IMO), but at this point I’d say:
  • Primoz could jump to #2 if he wins.
  • Remco drops down, even if that disastrous stage was not representative.
  • Kuss jumps into top 5 if he finishes on the podium
  • Ayuso likely jumps into top 7
  • As I mentioned earlier, Adam Yates was likely ranked too low by me and should be higher