How do Lowlanders learn to climb? (Official Mollema/Ten Dam/Belkin thread)

[Aapjes]

Dutch cyclotourists tend to rate climbing quite highly. The most popular sportive is the Amstel Gold tour version and if you talk to normal people about your hobby, they pretty much expect a climbing story. Just about any Dutch semi-serious cyclist will want to ride the hills or mountains. Not just for the stories they can tell, but also because you just get tired of the flats and the Ardennes aren't that far away.

Dutch people have a huge advantage in early development because most ride to school by bike. A poster asked why there is little basketball talent coming from The NL. Well, few kids play it, so even if a very large Dutch guy gets scouted, he will lack the thousands of hours invested in early childhood to be really proficient.

The Rabo/Belkin development team also plays a major factor IMO. I think they are way more effective at finding climbing talent than the French. They seem to be very bad at scouting sprinters, strangely enough.

 

[frenchfry]

yeah, so an overarching question is whether all these performances by flatlanders are down to doping.
any evidence that any of these guys was clean?

So again: how do flatlanders learn to outclimb Frenchmen, Spaniards and Italians?
Just on the tele, a special on Mollema where his former teammates say he's so good because he rode 30 km to school and back everyday.

This brings us back to your skiing comparison.

The Dutch ride their bikes all the time from a very young age. This should be a big advantage, even if there aren't any mountains close by (half of the Dutch spend their vacation in France anyways).

For the French, riding a bike is for those who are too poor to have a car or have lost their drivers license. It's amazing there are any French pros at all!

 

[el chava]

There's no connection between cycling as a sport and cycling as a transportation. Then there would be no french, spanish or italian riders whatsoever. Not even the UK or Belgium would it be so dominant.

Dutch riders are good because or the sports infrastructure, sponsor support (Rabobank), history, media exposure and so on.

And eventually you will also find riders that are able to climb in such a large talentpool.

I am pretty interested in why the french are so bad though. Probably still very old-school in training...

 

[peterst6906]

There are a lot of posts in this thread indicating that it's possible for lowlanders to climb and I can witness through a personal anecdote that it's definitely possible.

We returned home to Australia after living 7 years in The Hague and my second son, who was riding crits and road races in The Netherlands with De Spartaan has come home and begun immediately killing other riders on some of the hilliest club territory in Australia.

He rode climbs of the Ronde and Amstel Gold, but I don't really think they had any impact, because they were just for fun.

It's much more to do with his physiology and not location where he learnt to ride.

He has more access to climbs for training now, but he has been beating his age group up climbs here right from the day we came home.

I can definitely see how riders who learn on the flatlands as juniors can climb well if they have the right physiology and train on climbs as they progress to elite and pro levels.

 

["Jeff"]

Granted, Mollema doesn't come falling out of the sky.
But he had never gone up the ventoux.
In a clean peloton, wouldn'T that be a huge disadvantage?

I still don't see how a country like France with real mountains and stuff isn't able to produce a climber of the caliber of Mollema.
In a clean(er) peloton, you'd expect France to have much more riders in the top. I guess that's my main concern.

We also suck at skiing for one reason: lack of mountains.

You seriously dont see the difference between having a good Dutch skiier and a good Dutch climber (cycling) because of the lack of mountains ??

Unbelievable.

One is not like the other.

 

[Benito]

There's no connection between cycling as a sport and cycling as a transportation. Then there would be no french, spanish or italian riders whatsoever. Not even the UK or Belgium would it be so dominant.

Oh yes there is a connection. You should have seen us go everyday before and after school trying to hold on to the wheels of mopeds and adult cyclists to stay out of the wind and forming trains to get home/to school as soon as possible. I can recall a short documentary of Mollema in which he told how he needed to bike to school everyday and how that initiated his cycling career.
I think you can compare it to Kenyan and Ethiopian runners like Gebrselassie who need to run to school each day. Does that mean that there are no runners from Western countries who don't need to run to school during their childhood? Granted the amount and quality of dutch professional cyclists is not comparable to that of east-African runners, but I think that has also to do with the lack of an economical motive to continue.

 

[Cloxxki]

You seriously dont see the difference between having a good Dutch skiier and a good Dutch climber (cycling) because of the lack of mountains ??

Unbelievable.

One is not like the other.

I am a cyclist and a cross-country skier. I can tell you there is 100x or 1000x as much to learn on your way to skiing Olympic medals than to KOM titles.
Climbing, no more no less, is PEANUTS. Turn the cranks and you're doing well.
Lack of snow is a total game changer. Lack of mountains, that's only about thin air at altitude (which they sell tents for) and post card views.

Apart from the road scene, here in the lowlands we have a culture of off-road biking. No real hills to conquer, so we turn forrest rides into some sort of crit-like workout, for fun. I can tell you it's hard riding.
And the 'cross scene then. If I win a local 'cross that consisted of nothing but sucky mud and deep standing water pools on tall grass...you can betcha I have more than decent climbing legs. It's all resistance, and getting yourself smoothly towards the next pedal stroke.

Cycling is something you don't unlearn. And the saying goes beyond the aspect of not face planting when you have only 2 narrrow wheels, in line with each other.
I rarely ride my bikes anymore other than for grocery getting. Once or twice a year I'll go what we call MTB'ing. Basically a forest ride, on fire roads and singletrack. Although I am at least 10kg overweight compared to my racing days, and I get more track running mileage (modest distances) than on any bikes, I somehow have not unlearned to rip it up on the trails. You don't unlearn. And starting early with cycling, as a nation, obviously outperforms having mountains but not liking to ride bikes as is the case in (much larger population) France.

A random Dutch person 30 y/o will have no issues at all doing 50km on any type of bicycle. 2 hours and it will be done with. Go to any other nation and try to get random people to get through a 50km ride, good luck.
The mass conditioning of Dutch leg muscles (and neurotransmitters) might be a factor larger than even more physiologists can comprehend.

Does this make out best climbers clean? No.

 

[el chava]

Oh yes there is a connection. You should have seen us go everyday before and after school trying to hold on to the wheels of mopeds and adult cyclists to stay out of the wind and forming trains to get home/to school as soon as possible. I can recall a short documentary of Mollema in which he told how he needed to bike to school everyday and how that initiated his cycling career.
I think you can compare it to Kenyan and Ethiopian runners like Gebrselassie who need to run to school each day. Does that mean that there are no runners from Western countries who don't need to run to school during their childhood? Granted the amount and quality of dutch professional cyclists is not comparable to that of east-African runners, but I think that has also to do with the lack of an economical motive to continue.

Where are all the German climbers then? Or Chinese? :

http://top10hell.com/top-10-countries-with-most-bicycles-per-capita/

In Denmark, where I live, everyone rides to work/school everyday, but that is not the reason people turn pro in the end.

You need to have a serious infrastructure to bring the talents out - and a culture/hype for cycling as a sport, not as a commuter transport (see Italy as the best example).

Sorry for a non-clinic related discussion.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Just on the tele, a special on Mollema where his former teammates say he's so good because he rode 30 km to school and back everyday.

Lets do some math.

60k a day
5 days a week equals 300k a week
lets say 40 weeks of school
equals 12.000k a year

That would be a lot of riding sniper.

Does that explain why Mollema can climb? No sir.

But do look at Mollema's climbing, he sucks wheel like the best Rodriquez/Peraud and in the last k he often can find an acceleration. Is that really climbing like Quintana for instance? Mollema is an allrounder. Poels on the other hand is a climber pur sang.

If he is doping I have no idea. It is not like he came out of nothing. Winning l'Avenir has been an indicator for some time. And yes, there was a mountain stage there, or is Super Besse nowadays a downhill track? Cataldo was the best man however in that Tour de l'Avenir.

On LTDee then.
20th in the Tour 2008, 27th Giro 2009, always had decent results in weeks races, basicly always has been a domestique for Menchov and Gesink and has had some trouble staying on his bike a few times...
Lets see I he can keep up the third week, looks like he kinda answered that today.

You should ask yourself where Hoogerlands Vuelta 2009 legs have gone.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

The lowland countries have good climbers because cycling is ingrained in the culture. The more people riding increases the chances that a rider that can climb will be discovered. Not all Dutch/Belgian riders are great climbers, in fact most aren't but through sheer numbers there will be certain riders that are born with the genetics to climb. With all that being said notice that there hasn't been a Belgian/Dutch Champion in 35 years. France hasn't had a champion in almost 30 years. That also seems to coincide with doping technologies becoming much more advanced. It's not to say that no one for the low lands dope, but ultimately it's an arms race and the big players have been from the US, Spain, and now the Great Britain.

 

[Deagol]

Another thing about this that I have not seen discussed is riders who are phenomenal on the climbs but not so good on the descents. After hearing about Froome being afraid of following Contador, I have to wonder: if he got so good through training (i.e. time in the saddle) would not that have also translated into becoming good at going down hills as well as up them?

Of course, there are other types of "more robotic" training that could occur indoors that may make you climb better, but would not help your descending (drugs, among other things).

There is a story I read (I think on Velonews) a few years back written by a female American mountainbiker getting ready for the Beling Olympics. Basically what she said was that racing with the Chinese women in pre-olympic races was very suspicious: they would KILL everyone on the climbs but didn't even know how to ride their bikes downhill. The insinuation was that they got good through the needle, not by actually mountainbiking. The Chinese women would timidly ride behind the other women on the downhills and watch how they handled their bikes. They eventually started learning how to "ride" but came into the sport being able to out-pedal all the women on the climbs who had been racing internationally for years.

There may, or may not also be a loose comparison to Rassmusen not being able to stay on his time trial bike in the tour that year he won polka dots. I have not seen Froome descend anywhere near enough to make a comparison for him...

Rassmusen is from a "low country" and was also world mountainbike champion several years ago. He was accused of using a blood substitute (Hemopure, or something like that, I believe) from a freind/acquaintence he knew in Boulder Colorado.

It seems that a lowland doper would have no trouble coming to atlitude and stomping on local clean riders on a climb. Lance Armstrong (from lowland Texas) did this in Winter Park and Leadville, Colorado many years apart at mountain bike races. I've talked to someone who witnessed the Winter Park race firsthand (altitude of about 10,500 feet mid-course) and said Lance was not even out of breathe but asked a question about the course since he was unfamiliar with the trails. Also, I saw the Leadville race where Lance destroyed local Dave Weins (in their second race there together) on the steep Powerline climb on the return leg of the race. Lance went into "full Alien Mode" ala Froome and Weins (from relatively high altitude Gunison) had to stay in "Full Human Mode" and push his bike up the same climb.

Physiology matters way more than your location.

 

[User Guide]

Another thing about this that I have not seen discussed is riders who are phenomenal on the climbs but not so good on the descents. After hearing about Froome being afraid of following Contador, I have to wonder: if he got so good through training (i.e. time in the saddle) would not that have also translated into becoming good at going down hills as well as up them?

Of course, there are other types of "more robotic" training that could occur indoors that may make you climb better, but would not help your descending (drugs, among other things).

There is a story I read (I think on Velonews) a few years back written by a female American mountainbiker getting ready for the Beling Olympics. Basically what she said was that racing with the Chinese women in pre-olympic races was very suspicious: they would KILL everyone on the climbs but didn't even know how to ride their bikes downhill. The insinuation was that they got good through the needle, not by actually mountainbiking. The Chinese women would timidly ride behind the other women on the downhills and watch how they handled their bikes. They eventually started learning how to "ride" but came into the sport being able to out-pedal all the women on the climbs who had been racing internationally for years.

There may, or may not also be a loose comparison to Rassmusen not being able to stay on his time trial bike in the tour that year he won polka dots. I have not seen Froome descend anywhere near enough to make a comparison for him...

Rassmusen is from a "low country" and was also world mountainbike champion several years ago. He was accused of using a blood substitute (Hemopure, or something like that, I believe) from a freind/acquaintence he knew in Boulder Colorado.

It seems that a lowland doper would have no trouble coming to atlitude and stomping on local clean riders on a climb. Lance Armstrong (from lowland Texas) did this in Winter Park and Leadville, Colorado many years apart at mountain bike races. I've talked to someone who witnessed the Winter Park race firsthand (altitude of about 10,500 feet mid-course) and said Lance was not even out of breathe but asked a question about the course since he was unfamiliar with the trails. Also, I saw the Leadville race where Lance destroyed local Dave Weins (in their second race there together) on the steep Powerline climb on the return leg of the race. Lance went into "full Alien Mode" ala Froome and Weins (from relatively high altitude Gunison) had to stay in "Full Human Mode" and push his bike up the same climb.

Physiology matters way more than your location.

Well wigans trains around Pendle Hill a lot,where its steep and wet(a lot) didnt help him much.
Going fast downhill is about confidence and relaxation,you can be technically great at it but wont help too much if you have small wedding plums.

 

[Cloxxki]

Another thing about this that I have not seen discussed is riders who are phenomenal on the climbs but not so good on the descents. After hearing about Froome being afraid of following Contador, I have to wonder: if he got so good through training (i.e. time in the saddle) would not that have also translated into becoming good at going down hills as well as up them?

Of course, there are other types of "more robotic" training that could occur indoors that may make you climb better, but would not help your descending (drugs, among other things).

There is a story I read (I think on Velonews) a few years back written by a female American mountainbiker getting ready for the Beling Olympics. Basically what she said was that racing with the Chinese women in pre-olympic races was very suspicious: they would KILL everyone on the climbs but didn't even know how to ride their bikes downhill. The insinuation was that they got good through the needle, not by actually mountainbiking. The Chinese women would timidly ride behind the other women on the downhills and watch how they handled their bikes. They eventually started learning how to "ride" but came into the sport being able to out-pedal all the women on the climbs who had been racing internationally for years.

There may, or may not also be a loose comparison to Rassmusen not being able to stay on his time trial bike in the tour that year he won polka dots. I have not seen Froome descend anywhere near enough to make a comparison for him...

Rassmusen is from a "low country" and was also world mountainbike champion several years ago. He was accused of using a blood substitute (Hemopure, or something like that, I believe) from a freind/acquaintence he knew in Boulder Colorado.

It seems that a lowland doper would have no trouble coming to atlitude and stomping on local clean riders on a climb. Lance Armstrong (from lowland Texas) did this in Winter Park and Leadville, Colorado many years apart at mountain bike races. I've talked to someone who witnessed the Winter Park race firsthand (altitude of about 10,500 feet mid-course) and said Lance was not even out of breathe but asked a question about the course since he was unfamiliar with the trails. Also, I saw the Leadville race where Lance destroyed local Dave Weins (in their second race there together) on the steep Powerline climb on the return leg of the race. Lance went into "full Alien Mode" ala Froome and Weins (from relatively high altitude Gunison) had to stay in "Full Human Mode" and push his bike up the same climb.

Physiology matters way more than your location.

If Chine decides they'll enter the Olympics with MTB, they recruit athletes with relevant physical traits. They'll purchase proper bikes. And send them training.
Climbingg is easy, albeit hard work. Low speeds.
They could do this for years, training together, and never realize how fast they're expected to ride downhill in races. If you've never rubbed tires with a WC level rider, you just have no clue whatsoever. So I don't think it's too strange or suspect. You don't become a good descender without being challenged. If they were "nice" to each other on DH's, or used easier trails to recover during intervals, sure, they'll be like that. Like lowlander me, actually. I'll rub your tire uphill and you'll lose me downhill. Does that make me a doper? I never rode WC level MTB tracks, let alone with WC level descenders. Let alone with the drive to medal such an event.

 

[sniper]

This brings us back to your skiing comparison.

The Dutch ride their bikes all the time from a very young age. This should be a big advantage, even if there aren't any mountains close by (half of the Dutch spend their vacation in France anyways).

For the French, riding a bike is for those who are too poor to have a car or have lost their drivers license. It's amazing there are any French pros at all!

Lets do some math.

60k a day
5 days a week equals 300k a week
lets say 40 weeks of school
equals 12.000k a year

That would be a lot of riding sniper.

Does that explain why Mollema can climb? No sir.

But do look at Mollema's climbing, he sucks wheel like the best Rodriquez/Peraud and in the last k he often can find an acceleration. Is that really climbing like Quintana for instance? Mollema is an allrounder. Poels on the other hand is a climber pur sang.

If he is doping I have no idea. It is not like he came out of nothing. Winning l'Avenir has been an indicator for some time. And yes, there was a mountain stage there, or is Super Besse nowadays a downhill track? Cataldo was the best man however in that Tour de l'Avenir.

On LTDee then.
20th in the Tour 2008, 27th Giro 2009, always had decent results in weeks races, basicly always has been a domestique for Menchov and Gesink and has had some trouble staying on his bike a few times...
Lets see I he can keep up the third week, looks like he kinda answered that today.

You should ask yourself where Hoogerlands Vuelta 2009 legs have gone.

good point(s), Frenchfry & Fearless (and the other posters who made similar points).
The premisse of this thread was obviously seriously flawed.

As to Hoogerland, perhaps he got some BP warning and has taken it down a couple of notches.
He is, however, struck by some bad luck time and again.

 

[Ferminal]

Silly Rabos believing all the "clean era" rubbish and thinking that you can maintain consistency into the 3rd week without refills.

 

[TheBean]

The most effective way for a low-lander to learn to climb better is to visit the mountains and practice climbing.

Specificity of training is always the best answer for a starting point.

Sprinters get faster when they practice sprinting. Time trailers - the same thing applies. Climbers...etc.

 

[Almeisan]

If you ride in the mountains the only skill you develop is descending.

Riding up a incline slowly or riding on the flats do the same thing for your body, given a similar intensity. The heart, lungs and muscles don't know if you are going up a hill, going against the wind, ploughing through snow, or just going really fast.

 

[l.Harm]

Silly Rabos believing all the "clean era" rubbish and thinking that you can maintain consistency into the 3rd week without refills.

1 - so you believe they're clean?
2 - maybe they don't believe it, but they still don't use.

 

[IndianCyclist]

I believe that the Belkin team is a team that comes close to clean judging from performances excepting Bos of course. Both Mollema and Ten Dam have fallen by the wayside in the Vuelta after a grueling TDF while the Movistar and Katusha continue to soar in the wind. Horner is becoming younger and Pozzovivo is putting in unbelievable performances in TTs.

 

[Netserk]

1 - so you believe they're clean?
2 - maybe they don't believe it, but they still don't use.

Maybe they are just as clean as in 2006. They also missed a refill back then...

 

[sniper]

I believe that the Belkin team is a team that comes close to clean judging from performances excepting Bos of course. Both Mollema and Ten Dam have fallen by the wayside in the Vuelta after a grueling TDF while the Movistar and Katusha continue to soar in the wind. Horner is becoming younger and Pozzovivo is putting in unbelievable performances in TTs.

Vayer thinks belkin dope. Mollema and ten dam both scored "suspicious" on his doping index. You can hear vayer talk about this on a 7 min. Dutch tv report somewhere online, mainly wrt the 2013 ventoux stage. Shouldnt be hard to find but i,m not in position to link it now. The report itself is in dutch, but the vayer interview is in english with subs. Wasnt that spectacular, by the way, but still interesting to hear vayer call out belkin on dutch tv.

 

[therhodeo]

I don't see how Bos is suspicious. His results are completely consistent with a super talented track sprinter with less than zero tactical ability.

 

[oldcrank]

Another thing about this that I have not seen discussed is riders who are phenomenal on the climbs but not so good on the descents. After hearing about Froome being afraid of following Contador, I have to wonder: if he got so good through training (i.e. time in the saddle) would not that have also translated into becoming good at going down hills as well as up them?

Unfortunately the whole premise of your theory does not apply to Froome, but it does apply to Contador. Froome in fact did follow Contador, but Contador wasn't very "good at going down hills" and he (Contador) crashed, not Froome.

 

[Cloxxki]

I don't see how Bos is suspicious. His results are completely consistent with a super talented track sprinter with less than zero tactical ability.

I have on some good authority that Bos is more believable than most any pro on a bike. Don't underestimate him or his brother in their knowledge of legal supplements, and having them tested before use.

 

[Afrank]

I don't see how Bos is suspicious. His results are completely consistent with a super talented track sprinter with less than zero tactical ability.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/08/news/theo-bos-low-on-cortisol-wont-start-vuelta_300197