JV talks, sort of

[Benotti69]

While JV wasn't sanctioned, he did effectively do it to himself. He quit European cycling aged 29, having asked for his contract to be dissolved 18 months early. Barely a year later, aged 30 he retired completely. Not what I'd have expected for a rider of his calibre.

Did JV give back any money's he earned while cheating while racing?

Scott Mercier quit before doping, as did lots of others. That is some sanction without the money, the glory or having the chance to then run your own team. JV has done well, like lots of these dopers and cheats.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

While JV wasn't sanctioned, he did effectively do it to himself. He quit European cycling aged 29, having asked for his contract to be dissolved 18 months early. Barely a year later, aged 30 he retired completely. Not what I'd have expected for a rider of his calibre.

Rider of his calibre? On the Garmin team website he boasts Mt Ventoux record (via ground breaking training techniques) and a TTT stage win at the Tour (with USPS).

Not exactly much to boast about.

Was he a good rider, was he? Didn't really get that impression.

 

[Ferminal]

The TTT stage win was with Credit Agricole's amazing clean strongmen.

 

[ultimobici]

Rider of his calibre? On the Garmin team website he boasts Mt Ventoux record (via ground breaking training techniques) and a TTT stage win at the Tour (with USPS).

Not exactly much to boast about.

Was he a good rider, was he? Didn't really get that impression.

While not a Tour contender or Classics winner, you don't win TT stages of the Dauphine or a TTT in the Tour if you are a second-rate rider. Also bear in mind that both these wins were with Credit Agricole.

Was he clean for those wins? I don't know and frankly I don't care in light of what Vaughters has done since. While he's no saint, I see no benefit vilifying him now for actions taken 11 years ago which he has admitted to.

 

[Benotti69]

While not a Tour contender or Classics winner, you don't win TT stages of the Dauphine or a TTT in the Tour if you are a second-rate rider. Also bear in mind that both these wins were with Credit Agricole.

Was he clean for those wins? I don't know and frankly I don't care in light of what Vaughters has done since. While he's no saint, I see no benefit vilifying him now for actions taken 11 years ago which he has admitted to.

Easy to admit to actions that were not going to be sanctioned. JV suffered nothing for his doping. In fact he has used it as a type of 'shield' as has Millar.

 

[blackcat]

Rider of his calibre? On the Garmin team website he boasts Mt Ventoux record (via ground breaking training techniques) and a TTT stage win at the Tour (with USPS).

Not exactly much to boast about.

Was he a good rider, was he? Didn't really get that impression.

credit agricole was the TTT win i think.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

While not a Tour contender or Classics winner, you don't win TT stages of the Dauphine or a TTT in the Tour if you are a second-rate rider. Also bear in mind that both these wins were with Credit Agricole.

Was he clean for those wins? I don't know and frankly I don't care in light of what Vaughters has done since. While he's no saint, I see no benefit vilifying him now for actions taken 11 years ago which he has admitted to.

I don't even really care if he was clean, given the era - he has already admitted to being doped to the gills for the Ventoux stage, and was a doper for most of his pro career, including his time at CA.

It's not villification to ask for clarification on "rider of his calibre", either. I do not understand the defensive nature of your response. JV's tendency to "say the first thing that pops into his head" is of far more concern to me these days than the first thing he popped into his mouth or veins all those years ago.

When I glanced through his CQ results, he was not only not a GC contender, he wasn't even a GT finisher. Did he ever finish a GT?

ETA: this is all following up your claim of "JV self sanctioning", by "retiring at a young age for a rider of his calibre".

If he was pretty ordinary as a cyclist, quitting doesn't seem much of a self-sanction to me.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

While not a Tour contender or Classics winner, you don't win TT stages of the Dauphine or a TTT in the Tour if you are a second-rate rider. Also bear in mind that both these wins were with Credit Agricole.

Was he clean for those wins? I don't know and frankly I don't care in light of what Vaughters has done since. While he's no saint, I see no benefit vilifying him now for actions taken 11 years ago which he has admitted to.

I do hope he has apoligized to David Millar for that one, we all know David was clean in 2001 but the Ventoux TT was in 1999 ultimo.

 

[ultimobici]

I do hope he has apoligized to David Millar for that one, we all know David was clean in 2001 but the Ventoux TT was in 1999 ultimo.

I wasn't referring to the Ventoux TT, merely pointing out that he had successes after Postal.

I doubt he was clean as a whistle in the time he was at CA, but it's unlikely he was doped to the same extent he was in USPS. There is an outside chance he was clean but we will never know.

I just get bored of this holier than thou attitude that often seeps in here. It's one thing when a rider carries on regardless reaping the benefits of their deceit without doing anything to right the damage they helped cause. I view Vaughters, Millar and the like in a less critical light due to their actions since their careers ended or they were caught. It's the Armstrongs, Vinkourovs, Ekimovs etc that should be excluded because they have exacerbated the problem.

 

[pmcg76]

I don't even really care if he was clean, given the era - he has already admitted to being doped to the gills for the Ventoux stage, and was a doper for most of his pro career, including his time at CA.

It's not villification to ask for clarification on "rider of his calibre", either. I do not understand the defensive nature of your response. JV's tendency to "say the first thing that pops into his head" is of far more concern to me these days than the first thing he popped into his mouth or veins all those years ago.

When I glanced through his CQ results, he was not only not a GC contender, he wasn't even a GT finisher. Did he ever finish a GT?

ETA: this is all following up your claim of "JV self sanctioning", by "retiring at a young age for a rider of his calibre".

If he was pretty ordinary as a cyclist, quitting doesn't seem much of a self-sanction to me.

JV may not have been a top rider but he gave up a good contract with CA and doing the job he had dreamed about since he was a teen. How many people do that??

On his GT record, he crashed out of the Tour twice, Passage-du-Gois 99 and on a mountain descent 00, it was the bee-sting that knocked him out in 01 and he had simply lost the will to continue in 02 which is when he packed the Euro game in. He wasn't a GT rider and has admitted that himself.

 

[pmcg76]

Did JV give back any money's he earned while cheating while racing?

Scott Mercier quit before doping, as did lots of others. That is some sanction without the money, the glory or having the chance to then run your own team. JV has done well, like lots of these dopers and cheats.

You know what's funny is that none of those guys like Mercier seem particularly bitter at the guys who chose to dope. They were all faced with the same dilemma and understood the consequences of whatever decision they took. They might not have agreed with the decision of their team-mates but they at least understood why they made that decision and didn't really judge them on it.

Kimmage never seemed particularly bitter about the likes of Claveyrolat and Collotti or Kelly and Roche for that matter, it was more the system he was ****ed off at the time he published Rough Ride. It was only the reaction of his peers to the book that put him on his high horse.

Yes posters on here who have had no loss or contact with any of these guys get all bent out of shape about guys who made the wrong choice and allude to them as some sort of denomic beings.

There are things in everyday life where the 'everybody else is doing it, so why can't we' mantra takes precedent yet very few people get bent out of shape about it especially when it benefits themselves.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Henceforth is it really that hard to believe that some of them might like to work toward a situation where new-pros are not faced with those decisions regardless of what path they themselves chose.

Why would the retired racer suddenly spawn a conscience after doping as a rider? He's being rewarded, probably for the second time, for doping! That's the system we've got now.

I am sure there are guys who doped, benefited from it but still feel regret.

Regret what? A longer career as a rider? Cheating numerous clean riders out of a career? Nope. Doping pays.

Landis has few regrets. Hamilton doesn't seem to feel too bad. Where are these dopers who "feel bad?" Living pretty well. Ask them to forfeit their stolen wealth and watch what happens.

If it's not perfectly clear, your imagined rider is a fail. Cheating pays!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

JV may not have been a top rider but he gave up a good contract with CA and doing the job he had dreamed about since he was a teen. How many people do that??

Lots. You just never hear about them coz they see the doping and think - feck that - and leave. Instead of whining about it. JV also diddled other people out of a career. I have no respect for him quitting - that's just a quitter attitude. He doped when CA manager said not to, then dropped CA manager in the deep end by not honouring his contractual commitment.

 

[ultimobici]

He doped when CA manager said not to, then dropped CA manager in the deep end by not honouring his contractual commitment.

How do you come to the conclusion that he dropped Legeay in the the deep end? He requested that his contract be dissolved. Nothing wrong with that at all, far from it. WOuld you rather he just went through the motions for the pay cheque? That would be the cowardly way out. See it though doing the bare minimum. As for doping despite Legeay saying not to, where is that coming from. Reading the interview he did with Velonews he paints it very differently.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

How do you come to the conclusion that he dropped Legeay in the the deep end? He requested that his contract be dissolved. Nothing wrong with that at all, far from it. WOuld you rather he just went through the motions for the pay cheque? That would be the cowardly way out. See it though doing the bare minimum. As for doping despite Legeay saying not to, where is that coming from. Reading the interview he did with Velonews he paints it very differently.

Wait, didn't you say "rider of his calibre"? Dude anything I say that isn't a glowing worship at JV"s foot stool is going to hurt you, so best I stop responding.

JV himself said Legeay told them - no doping onmy team. It's in JV's thread.

And yes, train and race you lazy quitter, and be a domestique or something for Voigt or someone. DO some work instead of looking for glory and then spitting the dummy coz you can't be bothered any more.

Oh. Looks like I responded. You clearly respect JV as a cyclist - I don't.

 

[pmcg76]

Why would the retired racer suddenly spawn a conscience after doping as a rider? He's being rewarded, probably for the second time, for doping! That's the system we've got now.




Regret what? A longer career as a rider? Cheating numerous clean riders out of a career? Nope. Doping pays.

Landis has few regrets. Hamilton doesn't seem to feel too bad. Where are these dopers who "feel bad?" Living pretty well. Ask them to forfeit their stolen wealth and watch what happens.

If it's not perfectly clear, your imagined rider is a fail. Cheating pays!

So you claim to know how every former rider who doped feels about doping based on Hamilton and Landis. If you asked Landis and Hamilton if they would have preferred to have had a good career with or without doping, what do you think their response would be??? What about the riders who doped but didn't have the successful career that Hamilton/Landis had. Simeoni or Manzano for example, did they have the same attitude as Hamilton/Landis.

Of course Ladis/Hamiltony don't feel bad because the majority of their competitors were doped as well. They clearly felt guilty about what they done in regards to their families and both have explained that in detail but obvioulsy they didn't feel they were cheating their competitors.

If they were the minority cheating the majority, they might have felt worse. This is also at the heart of the 'everybody dopes line' we heard from certain riders. They couldn't possibly know that as fact but putting it forward as a generalisation, it lessens their own sense of guilt at having cheated.

There is simply no way you can state that every single pro who doped has the exact same psychology based on two riders. That is illogical and goes against every facet of human nature. Kimmage doped and so did Hamilton/Landis, do they have the same mentality??

 

[pmcg76]

Wait, didn't you say "rider of his calibre"? Dude anything I say that isn't a glowing worship at JV"s foot stool is going to hurt you, so best I stop responding.

JV himself said Legeay told them - no doping onmy team. It's in JV's thread.

And yes, train and race you lazy quitter, and be a domestique or something for Voigt or someone. DO some work instead of looking for glory and then spitting the dummy coz you can't be bothered any more.

Oh. Looks like I responded. You clearly respect JV as a cyclist - I don't.

You do realise that JV continued to race in the US after he quit Europe. He rode for the Prime Alliance team for a season.

Simple questions here. If a mate approached you and told you that their job was killing them mentally and that they hated it and wanted to quit or take a less stressful job, what would your advice to them be??

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You do realise that JV continued to race in the US after he quit Europe. He rode for the Prime Alliance team for a season.

So he can still ride, but quits CA. How is this an improvement?

Simple questions here. If a mate approached you and told you that their job was killing them mentally and that they hated it and wanted to quit or take a less stressful job, what would your advice to them be??

Killing them mentally? Gimme a break. I'm not interested in continuing a "poor me" discussion about JV. Riding a bike doesn't kill you mentally. YOu don't get it, do you? He wants glory. Pure and simple. If the doping is killing you mentally, stop doping and be a dom. Hah! No glory in that.

JV ain't the victim here. He's an unapologetic doper.

 

[thehog]

So he can still ride, but quits CA. How is this an improvement?



Killing them mentally? Gimme a break. I'm not interested in continuing a "poor me" discussion about JV. Riding a bike doesn't kill you mentally. YOu don't get it, do you? He wants glory. Pure and simple. If the doping is killing you mentally, stop doping and be a dom. Hah! No glory in that.

JV ain't the victim here. He's an unapologetic doper.

The fact that JV became a successful real estate broker says it all. He's a salesman. A good one. Tells a good story.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why would the retired racer suddenly spawn a conscience after doping as a rider? He's being rewarded, probably for the second time, for doping! That's the system we've got now.




Regret what? A longer career as a rider? Cheating numerous clean riders out of a career? Nope. Doping pays.

Landis has few regrets. Hamilton doesn't seem to feel too bad. Where are these dopers who "feel bad?" Living pretty well. Ask them to forfeit their stolen wealth and watch what happens.

If it's not perfectly clear, your imagined rider is a fail. Cheating pays!

This is pretty ridiculous - on the above basis anyone who did something wrong in their lives is not capable of contrition or remorse.
Many people do things they later regret because the do not have the perspective at the time, which is particularly true in the bubble of Pro racing.

And you equate a conscious or regret with one point, the financial rewards - which is wrong.

As PMCg pointed out, this is not black & white - some riders had no problem doping, indeed looking at it as being professional - but others struggles with it, for various reasons. The constant lies to not just the public or fans, but to close family and friends. The deceit within the sport makes them believe everyone is doping, that they are not a team player if they refuse.

 

[pmcg76]

So he can still ride, but quits CA. How is this an improvement?



Killing them mentally? Gimme a break. I'm not interested in continuing a "poor me" discussion about JV. Riding a bike doesn't kill you mentally. YOu don't get it, do you? He wants glory. Pure and simple. If the doping is killing you mentally, stop doping and be a dom. Hah! No glory in that.

JV ain't the victim here. He's an unapologetic doper.

You are saying why didn't he just quit and become a domestique. Well that is pretty much what he did, left Europe and went back to riding at a much lower level.

To say that cycling cannot destroy someone mentally is also ridiculous, any job can destroy someone mentally. Add in the fact of living away from home and family in a foreign country for most of the year would be too much for the majority of people to take. There are plenty of people who couldn't make it at pro or even amateur level in Europe because they were not cut out for it mentally. Kimmage couldn't handle it mentally either which was the primary reason he quit.

I asked you a direction question and of course you deflected it and instead went on attacking JV as if you can speak for what he was feeling personally at the time. Yet you seem to know very little about JV or his career if you have to check his results on CQ.

You derided him for never finishing a GT even though he has and you either don't know or ignored the fact that in 3 out the 4 Tdf he rode, he crashed out in two and was forced to retire because of a bee sting in another. That was hardly because he was a poor rider.

There is also the fact that you describe JV as a crap rider but at the same time say he quit because he wasn't getting any glory any more. Well if he was crap, how on earth did he ever receive any glory in the first place. If he was after the glory, why didn't he just hop straight into a team car as a DS. Why bother going back to school and starting of with a team racing at junior level. That is not the route normally taken by former pro's looking to bask in the glory. JV spent 6/7 years away from the top level European pro scene from the time he quit until Slipstream in 08.

 

[filipo]

Killing them mentally? Gimme a break. I'm not interested in continuing a "poor me" discussion about JV. Riding a bike doesn't kill you mentally. YOu don't get it, do you? He wants glory. Pure and simple. If the doping is killing you mentally, stop doping and be a dom. Hah! No glory in that.

JV ain't the victim here. He's an unapologetic doper.

At the risk of fueling this fire: I don't think PMCG meant "riding a bike = kills mentally" but rather that the stress of having to take drugs (to compete, to win, because your boss told you to, whatever) might kill some people mentally. (Hell, I don't have that hard a job, but it kills me mentally, and I don't have to take drugs to do it.) And the argument is that, in that era, even being a domestique meant taking drugs.

And if you don't think there is mental damage in being a drug addict (which is what a lot of pro dopers are, in effect), I would ask whether you'd ever heard of Marco Pantani or Frank VDB.

Yes, it's a choice to take drugs, but you seem to think that all men should be made of iron wills and be able to always choose correctly. And that's just not the case.

 

[blackcat]

At the risk of fueling this fire: I don't think PMCG meant "riding a bike = kills mentally" but rather that the stress of having to take drugs (to compete, to win, because your boss told you to, whatever) might kill some people mentally. (Hell, I don't have that hard a job, but it kills me mentally, and I don't have to take drugs to do it.) And the argument is that, in that era, even being a domestique meant taking drugs.

And if you don't think there is mental damage in being a drug addict (which is what a lot of pro dopers are, in effect), I would ask whether you'd ever heard of Marco Pantani or Frank VDB.

Yes, it's a choice to take drugs, but you seem to think that all men should be made of iron wills and be able to always choose correctly. And that's just not the case.

problem is that Barry rode the legs off the field at Hamilton Ontario in the 2003 World Championships that Astarloa won. He was the man that animated the race, a little like Cancellara in Mondrisio.

 

[pmcg76]

At the risk of fueling this fire: I don't think PMCG meant "riding a bike = kills mentally" but rather that the stress of having to take drugs (to compete, to win, because your boss told you to, whatever) might kill some people mentally. (Hell, I don't have that hard a job, but it kills me mentally, and I don't have to take drugs to do it.) And the argument is that, in that era, even being a domestique meant taking drugs.

And if you don't think there is mental damage in being a drug addict (which is what a lot of pro dopers are, in effect), I would ask whether you'd ever heard of Marco Pantani or Frank VDB.

Yes, it's a choice to take drugs, but you seem to think that all men should be made of iron wills and be able to always choose correctly. And that's just not the case.

Of course and not just from the drugs point of view but from the whole perspective. All the physical suffering, the sacrifices, living away from home and family, not having real a real home etc. etc. I don't think there is anyone who things pro racing is a walk in the park.

There is a bit in Rough Ride where Kimmage talks about the American rider Thurlow Rogers cracking mentally and leaving the team hotel and heading back to the US without a word to anyone. He described how the Euro pros found it amusing but says he understood because he had the same thoughts of quitting numerous times and that was in his first season as a pro.

 

[pmcg76]

problem is that Barry rode the legs off the field at Hamilton Ontario in the 2003 World Championships that Astarloa won. He was the man that animated the race, a little like Cancellara in Mondrisio.

Either that is the most random off-topic post or you posted in the wrong thread!!