JV talks, sort of

[Dear Wiggo]

A few of you react to me almost identically to girlfriends that I dumped back in the day; emotional, angry, upset, name calling. And it just goes on and on and on and on... It's kind of funny.

You've spent more energy on me than most teenage girls spend on Justin Beiber crushes.

Hate isn't the opposite of love, apathy is. I love you too, Dear Wiggo, but I'm married.

In terms of personality types, most people, or many people, are not able to hear or read neutral comments. You are either praising them, or condemning them, no matter what you say or how you say it.

It would appear you are this sort of person.

Someone (ultimobici) is saying a rider of your calibre should not have to take 6 months off like every other single active person from the USADA reasoned decision (Levi, Zabriskie, now Matt White, etc), because you ended your career early, which was punishment enough for a rider of your calibre.

I checked. You weren't that much of a standout in the day and age of your cycling career.

This is a neutral observation, but pcmg (in ensuing posts), and you, are clearly taking this as me saying you were a crap rider, or a poor rider. You only see it negatively.

Not at all.

You were on a contract in Europe - by definition you were in the cream of the crop. One of the top 2-300 cyclists of the time. Incredible physiology and ability as a cyclist.

But as an individual at that time, doping or not, you were not - I believe - the cream of the cream of the crop. According to CQ, You didn't finish a GT. pcmg says you crashed twice and got stung by a bee.

Cadel broke his elbow and finished the Tour.
Tyler broke his collar bone and finished the Tour.
Hincapie finished 17 Tours.

Because I do not try to stroke your ego, or worship your words, and question the validity or logic of what you write here (hypoxia from a TT???? really???? 15W for 6 hours is 1000 calories? really????), I am perceived as someone who hates you, by you and those who clearly like or love you. Or those people who cannot read a statement without labeling it "negative" or "positive" - which may be a lot of people, and probably is.

You will just have to take my word for it that I treat everyone like this.

I am well aware of the opposite of love, and believe me, my feelings towards you as a person, are apathetic.

If we go back to personality types, mine is the one who does not give a flying fat rat's tail about position or title. If you are the janitor or the CEO, I will treat you the same way, with the same respect.

I respect people for what they do.

And I hate lying, with a passion.

So if you lie, or make stuff up - and you do - I am going to hate that. I understand it is difficult to separate the hating of an action from the hating of the actor, but again, you will have to take my word for it.



The irony of the claim of "name calling" is ironical. You really do just say or type the first thing that comes into your head. I have never called you a name, and cannot bring to mind anyone else doing so. But I do recall references to monkies from yourself.

While JV wasn't sanctioned, he did effectively do it to himself. He quit European cycling aged 29, having asked for his contract to be dissolved 18 months early. Barely a year later, aged 30 he retired completely. Not what I'd have expected for a rider of his calibre.

Why didn't you have to take a 6 month break from cycling team? Why were you not sanctioned? Why are there no question marks over your ability to return to the peloton, like there are for Matt White, or Levi, etc?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

What is the point of me providing any evidence?

I got it wrong, it was ultimobici who said "rider of his calibre" - but you agree with his premise, or are arguing against my claim JV was not that special in the pro peloton for some other reason.

I have asked you 2 direct questions now, feel free to answer them rather than deflect.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Quick summary would be
1/Lost his passion for the sport since 2001, felt he was only riding for the money and thus was being unfair to Roger Legeay.
2/Wanted to spend more time with his wife and young child who was 1/2 at the time and wanted to move back to the US.

I can accept that. Do you remember what started this conversation?

JV was not punished for doping - where everyone else submitting an affidavit still involved in pro cycling had to take a 6 month break, JV got NOTHING.

ultimobici responds and says - he quit cycling, that was his punishment.

The 2 reasons for quitting that you provide above, whilst understandable, negate any form of punishment possibly received by someone with the option to make that decision with their free will.

JV was not punished. Why not?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I can accept that. Do you remember what started this conversation?

JV was not punished for doping - where everyone else submitting an affidavit still involved in pro cycling had to take a 6 month break, JV got NOTHING.

ultimobici responds and says - he quit cycling, that was his punishment.

The 2 reasons for quitting that you provide above, whilst understandable, negate any form of punishment possibly received by someone with the option to make that decision with their free will.

JV was not punished. Why not?

Pretty simple - it was outside the 8 year statue of limitations.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Pretty simple - it was outside the 8 year statue of limitations.

But Matt White did get pinged? He admitted (I'm going on Wiki so could be off the mark) to doping at US Postal 2001-2003. That's outside SOL, and also the same period of time when JV was doping.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

But Matt White did get pinged? He admitted (I'm going on Wiki so could be off the mark) to doping at US Postal 2001-2003. That's outside SOL, and also the same period of time when JV was doping.

White said he was doping throughout his career and .....
"I stopped in the last year of my career. I stopped because I had enough."

He was riding with Disco until 2007, I will let you do the math.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Right. So the argument stands:

JV has clearly benefited from his doping, and never been punished.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Right. So the argument stands:

JV has clearly benefited from his doping, and never been punished.

Which argument?
JV has not been punished by an anti-doping authority - some advise, do no go trying to sell that as some sort of exclusive.

The other argument that was brought up, the one where a guy who breaks his own lucrative contract, returns to the US and retires in a year at age 29. Ya that stands.

 

[blackcat]

Right. So the argument stands:

JV has clearly benefited from his doping, and never been punished.

i think he has paid a price. some firms who would normally hire him when he graduates with his mba, dare say, if it is denver, top 10% of his class, will not hire him if they did diligence on his doping years. because when no one understands pro sport, they have a preconceived good bad lens. and he has to tell his son(s) when they ride (and daughters). would not be a simple sit down.

i think he has paid the price, for a cyclist, he has paid a heavy price. what was the opportunity cost for a cerebral person to go to the continent and pursue a cycling career?

he had the red pill blue pill choice. invidious offer, a choice that is not really a choice. can return with tail between legs and swallow pride. but that was not the prospect was it when you get on the american airways crossing the atlantic.

 

[ultimobici]

I can accept that. Do you remember what started this conversation?

JV was not punished for doping - where everyone else submitting an affidavit still involved in pro cycling had to take a 6 month break, JV got NOTHING.

ultimobici responds and says - he quit cycling, that was his punishment.

The 2 reasons for quitting that you provide above, whilst understandable, negate any form of punishment possibly received by someone with the option to make that decision with their free will.

JV was not punished. Why not?

You're reading far too much into my posts.

Where did I say that his retirement was a punishment?

WRT the "rider of his calibre" charge, he was a good rider, not a star but a good rider nonetheless. You quoted results from only one source, slipstream's site. Had you checked a little more carefully, you'd have found a later TT stage & TTT stage from his time at CA. Had he only performed under USPS I could see your point having more merit.

You allege doping at CA yet I cannot find any admission. As this is outside the SOL it seems strange that Vaughters would gloss over this. Far from it, he cites the inability to deliver points without doping as the reason for his request to dissolve his contract.

Reading & rereading your posts, it seems to me that you only see one outcome for any doper of any era. If they are not publicly castigated they've got away with it. Vaughters has never been sanctioned, true, but to say he has not paid a price for his doping is untrue. He walked away from a lucrative contract. As a previous poster pointed out, he could have simply switched teams rather than returning to the US and hanging up his wheels a year later.

I don't see Vaughters in the same light as Hincapie et al. They continued to dope by their own admissions and reaped the continuing benefits. Their actions meant they crossed the SOL threshold, not to mention that they in many cases prolonged the Armstrong saga. Vaughters may not have made a public admission until recently but he did play an active role in helping USADA close the affair. For that he deserves a little credit, don't you think?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

i think he has paid the price, for a cyclist, he has paid a heavy price. what was the opportunity cost for a cerebral person to go to the continent and pursue a cycling career?

Debatable. It certainly helped develop a network that provided opportunities down the track. He's a big fish in a little pond atm, and moving into the corporate world will flip that entirely.

 

[Gregga]

JV admitted in this thread having used EPO when riding for CA, during the 2000 Dauphine for example (but not during Paris Nice)
It was small doses (high natural Hct) , before the races and not during, as we all know JV was much afraid of police and antidoping controls. Enough to play a little role in week-long races, but no transfusions, so bad results in GT.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You're reading far too much into my posts.

Where did I say that his retirement was a punishment?

Sanctioned == punished.

While JV wasn't sanctioned, he did effectively do it to himself. He quit European cycling aged 29, having asked for his contract to be dissolved 18 months early. Barely a year later, aged 30 he retired completely. Not what I'd have expected for a rider of his calibre.

WRT the "rider of his calibre" charge, he was a good rider, not a star but a good rider nonetheless. You quoted results from only one source, slipstream's site.

Nope, I looked at CQ. Didn't really see anything outstanding. And compared to Voigt - a domestique - not as good.

Had you checked a little more carefully, you'd have found a later TT stage & TTT stage from his time at CA. Had he only performed under USPS I could see your point having more merit.

What I did find was a 7th place at national US TT champs. 7th. TTT stages are nothing, sorry. And a TT stage in Europe against real pros should have netted a podium, surely, at National US level? Unless one was clean and one doped, or some other weird reason.

You allege doping at CA yet I cannot find any admission.

Where did you look? His affidavit spells it out pretty clearly. Apparently he had so much EPO left over in the fridge he used it for the next 2 years at CA.

Reading & rereading your posts, it seems to me that you only see one outcome for any doper of any era. If they are not publicly castigated they've got away with it. Vaughters has never been sanctioned, true, but to say he has not paid a price for his doping is untrue. He walked away from a lucrative contract. As a previous poster pointed out, he could have simply switched teams rather than returning to the US and hanging up his wheels a year later.

You write, "but to say he has not paid a price for his doping is untrue. He walked away from a lucrative contract. "

Are you implying here that walking away from a lucrative contract was paying a price for doping?

If so, I am definitely confused. He got a better ($$) contract BECAUSE HE DOPED.

I am not sure I want public castigation. But JV is a prime example of the adage, "doping pays", imo, and his presence sends the wrong message.

I don't see Vaughters in the same light as Hincapie et al. They continued to dope by their own admissions and reaped the continuing benefits. Their actions meant they crossed the SOL threshold, not to mention that they in many cases prolonged the Armstrong saga. Vaughters may not have made a public admission until recently but he did play an active role in helping USADA close the affair. For that he deserves a little credit, don't you think?

Whereas I see "sin" as "sin". Doping is doping. Show me a domestique who worked tirelessly for the team leaders, getting paid <10% of their salary who now part-owns a team? Like JV. Or Millar. Or Bruyneel. Or Riis. Or - etc?

Hincapie's role in closing the USADA affair, imo, was easily as valuable as JV's.

 

[rata de sentina]

But JV is a prime example of the adage, "doping pays", imo, and his presence sends the wrong message.

Well I know you like to simplify things but as usual you’ve gone too far with the hyperbole.

As I see it your antipathy to JV stems more from the fact that what you considered to be a highly suspicious result was dismissed by him as not a cause for concern and you couldn’t handle that despite scientific evidence to the contrary. Clearly it’s still burning you up because anything in this thread attracts a deluge of your attention.

I am quite interested in what JV has to say for himself on a number of topics, which for your information doesn’t constitute fawning admiration.

Unfortunately your relentless badgering and incessant noise seems to have driven him off which is probably the intent.

 

[Franklin]

Ok.... But I'm actually not making any case to you guys?

For what's it worth (and cueue laughter and scorn from others here):

Considering you are not out there to change the world and are constrained in the world you you operate in I feel you made your case quite clear in your managing Garmin and your tolerance of the huge amount of snark.

And I think your pragmatic view is the only way forward. (Cueue more laughter and scorn^^).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well I know you like to simplify things but as usual you’ve gone too far with the hyperbole.

No explanation was forthcoming, so I am not sure what the point of this statement was. Are you saying JV doping hasn't helped him to be in the position he is in now? vs say Bassons?

As I see it your antipathy to JV stems more from the fact that what you considered to be a highly suspicious result was dismissed by him as not a cause for concern and you couldn’t handle that despite scientific evidence to the contrary. Clearly it’s still burning you up because anything in this thread attracts a deluge of your attention.

You're wrong, but I am sure in your own world you are right. I feel no antipathy towards anyone here. Not even people like you!

If you could be bothered reading back over those posts, my opening was always one of question - not accusation. When the responses were fantastical, my spidey senses tingled, sure, but that was more a "WTF JV" moment than a "definitely doping going on here" moment.

But yes, please keep harping on about one issue amongst many I have raised here, it's so exhaustive of you. So intelligent and scientific.

I think your antipathy towards me is due to a post where I laughed at a JV response about the intelligence of posters here. Misconstrued, it looks like I am laughing at his claim of intelligence. Whereas I was laughing at his deflection through gratuitous ego stroking of the posters. Classic manipulation to get someone off-side while getting yourself onside. But hey, that's just my theory. Your response in that conversation was bursting with umbrage.

I am quite interested in what JV has to say for himself on a number of topics, which for your information doesn’t constitute fawning admiration.

But you certainly appear to accept whatever he says, unquestioningly. Which to my way of thinking looks something like fawning admiration. But hey, feel free to attack the guy who questions what is being said. Most people here are supportive of that - JV is celebrity around here. And that matters to most.

Unfortunately your relentless badgering and incessant noise seems to have driven him off which is probably the intent.

Where as your deafening silence did what?

He ignored me months ago, remember?

As for intent. Uh no. I seek to understand. That is all.

 

[ljpoyz]

Leaving a lucrative contract because of doping that you only received due to said doping is not a punishment.

 

[Benotti69]

Leaving a lucrative contract because of doping that you only received due to said doping is not a punishment.

When JV walked away from cycling it was an extremely popular sport and he didn't walk away with lots of Op Puerto, USADA, Mantova hanging over the sport. It was apparently a golden age.

He has done well out of his career and has not been sanctioned for his doping.

But the sport is full of JVs. They run most of the teams.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sanctioned == punished.


Nope, I looked at CQ. Didn't really see anything outstanding. And compared to Voigt - a domestique - not as good.


What I did find was a 7th place at national US TT champs. 7th. TTT stages are nothing, sorry. And a TT stage in Europe against real pros should have netted a podium, surely, at National US level? Unless one was clean and one doped, or some other weird reason.


Where did you look? His affidavit spells it out pretty clearly. Apparently he had so much EPO left over in the fridge he used it for the next 2 years at CA.

It is amusing that you wrote upthread how much you despise lying and yet you lie about what JVs affidavit says.

He did use EPO sporadically over the next 2 years, from supplies he already had - a very different scenario from the spin you attempt to put on it.

Also, the fact you have to check CQ and other sources to find out very basic information about JV (not just his results) suggests that you know little about the sport - so your faux outrage is indeed like a dumped ex or Bieber fan.

You write, "but to say he has not paid a price for his doping is untrue. He walked away from a lucrative contract. "

Are you implying here that walking away from a lucrative contract was paying a price for doping?

If so, I am definitely confused. He got a better ($$) contract BECAUSE HE DOPED.

I am not sure I want public castigation. But JV is a prime example of the adage, "doping pays", imo, and his presence sends the wrong message.



Whereas I see "sin" as "sin". Doping is doping. Show me a domestique who worked tirelessly for the team leaders, getting paid <10% of their salary who now part-owns a team? Like JV. Or Millar. Or Bruyneel. Or Riis. Or - etc?

Hincapie's role in closing the USADA affair, imo, was easily as valuable as JV's.

The highlighted is interesting.
You think JV is a "prime example" that doping pays. That conveniently ignores everyone in the sport who doped and have stayed silent.

 

[roundabout]

Ok, here it goes.

After the Dauphine and the Route du Sud, I thought that the future Tour winner crashed out on the Passage du Gois.

How many embarrassed smilies should follow this post?

 

[Potomac]

A few of you react to me almost identically to girlfriends that I dumped back in the day; emotional, angry, upset, name calling. And it just goes on and on and on and on... It's kind of funny.

You've spent more energy on me than most teenage girls spend on Justin Beiber crushes.

Hate isn't the opposite of love, apathy is. I love you too, Dear Wiggo, but I'm married.

LMAO off. Not so much at JV's post, but mostly at the extensive response that only proves her unhealthy obsession.

 

[GJB123]

If you could be bothered reading back over those posts, my opening was always one of question - not accusation. When the responses were fantastical, my spidey senses tingled, sure, but that was more a "WTF JV" moment than a "definitely doping going on here" moment.

Really? Seriously? You are not trying to take the mickey here? Because you could have fooled me.

 

[pmcg76]

Sanctioned == punished.







Nope, I looked at CQ. Didn't really see anything outstanding. And compared to Voigt - a domestique - not as good.



What I did find was a 7th place at national US TT champs. 7th. TTT stages are nothing, sorry. And a TT stage in Europe against real pros should have netted a podium, surely, at National US level? Unless one was clean and one doped, or some other weird reason.



Where did you look? His affidavit spells it out pretty clearly. Apparently he had so much EPO left over in the fridge he used it for the next 2 years at CA.



You write, "but to say he has not paid a price for his doping is untrue. He walked away from a lucrative contract. "

Are you implying here that walking away from a lucrative contract was paying a price for doping?

If so, I am definitely confused. He got a better ($$) contract BECAUSE HE DOPED.

I am not sure I want public castigation. But JV is a prime example of the adage, "doping pays", imo, and his presence sends the wrong message.



Whereas I see "sin" as "sin". Doping is doping. Show me a domestique who worked tirelessly for the team leaders, getting paid <10% of their salary who now part-owns a team? Like JV. Or Millar. Or Bruyneel. Or Riis. Or - etc?

Hincapie's role in closing the USADA affair, imo, was easily as valuable as JV's.

Do you actually understand the nature of the foundation of the Slipstream set up, it started of as a junior team that JV set up and secured sponsorship for and put in a little of his own money. It was Doug Ellis who approached JV about turning the team into a pro team, not the other way round. JV has said on here that he told Ellis that he was crazy to think such a thing but that Ellis insisted.

Thus Slipstream sports was set up as the management company to run the team with JV as part owner(as he was the guy asked to run the team) and Doug Ellis providing the funds to run the show. Obviously when Slipstream secured actual sponsorship dollars i.e Garmin etc, this lessens the input from Ellis.


Technically if any former pro or even average joe was involved in running a cycling team and they met some rich super millionaire who wanted to back a cycling team and was willing to fund it, they could set up a company to run the team, problem being they need to have some insight to running a team and the knowledge of the world of pro cycling.

Funny thing is you were banging on about JV hunting the glory but fact is most former pro's still involved in cycling jumped straight into a team car as DS or manager etc and that becomes their role. Kinda ironic that because JV took time away from the top level and started up a junior team that he wound up being a part owner of a ProTour team. He took the long approach and got lucky in meeting Doug Ellis.

As usual you are trying to make this out to be far more sinister and nefarious than what it is.

Also what is this whole thing with Jens Voigt, clearly Credit Agricole signed Vaughters based on him winning Route du Sud and finishing 2nd at the Dauphine(with the Mont Ventoux win). Those results obviously gave the impression that JV had more potential to be a contender for those types of races than Jens Voigt so that is why he got the big contract in front of Voigt.

Perhaps if JV had actually finished the Tour in 99, CA might have had a better idea of what type of rider he was but they took a bit of a gamble and it backfired(happens all the time). Voigt ended up being the more successful rider for CA. Looking back now and saying that Voigt was the better rider does not change the fact that back in 99 CA seen more potential in JV as a possible GT rider than they did Voigt. Also ironic in that Voigt started his career at........AIS as a team-mate of one Matthew White!!!

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Ok, here it goes.

After the Dauphine and the Route du Sud, I thought that the future Tour winner crashed out on the Passage du Gois.

How many embarrassed smilies should follow this post?

Dont be embarrassed, a lot of Dutch people thought the same of Boogerd after that stage.

 

[Tinman]

One up for Garmin. Hesjedal and Millar clearly riding clean in this Giro.